mapman
13,570 posts
08-03-2016 12:00pm
You must be thinking of someone else. You get confused easily.
What's this, Revenge of the Nerds, Part 2? Night of the Living Trolls?
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aolmrd1241
417 posts
08-03-2016 11:09am
Geoff posted..."As much as I would like to take you up on your suggestion to try a DC fuse in lieu of an AC fuse of the same amp rating I am absolutely the wrong person for this task as my current system actually contains no fuses, nor any fuse holders, nor is any such thing necessary as my system is completely independent of house AC, a couple AA size batteries suffice."
To which aolmrd1241 replied,
"Geoff. I asked you a while back to elaborate on your sysem.What exactly are you using at home? Thanks."
I’ll give you some hints. No house AC, no power cords, no Ground, no interconnects, no speaker cables, no fuses, no transformers. No problems.
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mapman
13,572 posts
08-03-2016 1:15pm
GK you are the champ there for sure.
Mapman, You’re neither. You’re an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks, to collect a bill.
;-)
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wolf_garcia
2,554 posts
08-03-2016 1:25pm
It's difficult to refuse the fuseless who claim a fusion with fancy fuse users. Oh, and the answer to Geoffkait's list of questions is: All of the above.
The refuseniks get things all mixed up instead of all fixed up.
When you ass-u-me something you make a fool out of me and Uma Thurman. |
aolmrd1241
418 posts
08-03-2016 6:13pm
Geoffkait:"’ll give you some hints. No house AC, no power cords, no Ground, no interconnects, no speaker cables, no fuses, no transformers. No problems."
To which aolmrd1241 replied,
Since you want me to guess... I guess..... a transistor radio or a Sony wallkman. Am I close?
You’re close. Very close. I have a Sony Walkman with Sony Ultralight headphones, also a Sony Portable Cassette Player, Pro version. Mounted on my new Woody the Woodpecker isolation stand. Tweaked to the max. Even the tweaks are tweaked.
Cheers
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nonoise
2,266 posts
08-03-2016 5:15pm
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor, and surviving this thread."
"Well, you see Willard . . . In this war, things get confused out there, power, ideals, the old morality, practical military necessity. But out there with these natives, it must be a temptation to be god. Because there’s a conflict in every human heart, between the rational and the irrational, between good and evil."
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Almarg quoted Atmaspere,
Atmasphere 5-26-2016 12:31pm edt
"I joined this thread recently with some results on testing. Those results are that the directionality appears out of coincidence and that actually greater improvement can be had by rotating the fuse in the holder for best contact. The improvement is measurable and audible; descriptions others have made on this thread of what happens when you get the direction right accurately describe what happens when the contact area is maximized.
Occam’s Razor has something to say here! Given that a fuse has to be used in AC circuits and given that people report differences by reversing the fuse, and also understanding how fuses are inherently incapable of having directionality in any way whatsoever, the explanation that they somehow have an effect by reversing them in the holder is a fairly complex explanation: some sort of unknowable, unmeasurable quality of the fuse itself.
A simpler explanation is that the reversal is improving the contact area because fuse and holder are not dimensionally perfect and the fuse might sit better in the holder in one direction. By rotating the fuse in the holder without reversing it gets the same effect only more profoundly."
With all due respect to Al and Ralph wire directionality is not some new-fangled theory, the directionality of wire including fuses has been known around high end audio circles for almost three decades. Many high end cable manufacturers, including but not limited to Audioquest and Goertz and Anti Cables, have been aware of wire directionality for eons. That’s why their cables - their unshielded cables - are marked with ARROWS, just as many aftermarket fuses are marked with ARROWS. But we’ve covered all this before. The fuse holder theory is what I call a red herring. Now I’m not saying the fuse holder isn’t totally blameless, and perhaps there could be some audible differences, who knows. By using Acme Audio silver plated fuse holder and Quicksilver Gold contact enhancer one can easily eliminate any so-called fuse holder issues. Here’s the summary of the fuse measurement provided on the HiFi Tuning website for those who haven’t seen it.
a. A smaller fuse has always a bigger resistance than a bigger fuse (as well value as size) which is dependent on physics laws. With smaller value fuses, also the current through the fuse decreases. So the total power loss stays more or less the same.
b. A fuse with smaller dimensions always gives better results, than same value fuse with bigger dimensions.
c. High Quality special High End fuses normally give better measurements results than standard fuses.
d. Fuses made in far east sometimes had worse results than standard fuses. Also manufacturing quality different more.
e. The Infinity Power Evolution 500 mA fuse (palladium) had a bad manufacturing quality.
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Colonel Kurtz: Did they say why, Willard, why they want to terminate my command?
Capt. Benjamin Willard: I was sent on a classified mission, sir.
Colonel Kurtz: It's no longer classified, is it? Did they tell you?
Capt. Benjamin Willard: They told me that you had gone totally insane, and that your methods were unsound.
Colonel Kurtz: Are my methods unsound?
Capt. Benjamin Willard: I don't see any method at all, sir.
Colonel Kurtz: I expected someone like you. What did you expect? Are you an assassin?
Capt. Benjamin Willard: I'm a soldier....
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jetter
121 posts
08-03-2016 7:33pm
Geoff, is it your basic premise that the drawing of the metal through a hole in a die or draw plate to form the wire imparts a directionality to it? Not sure how this works.
Yes, that’s the premise, that drawing the wire through the final die imparts a direction of the crystal grains as it were on the surface and below the surface of the wire. It’s because metal has a crystal structure, that is homogeneous in it’s liquid state as well as it's first solid state (no pun) but deformed by a series of cuttings and drawings through dies, including drawing through the final die. The music signal apparently prefers to travel down one direction rather than the other. Perhaps the metal wire is like a porcupine which would prefer to be stroked in the direction of it’s quills rather than against the grain as it were. If I had to guess, I’d imagine the ubiquitous "single crystal wire" is not nearly as directional - if at all - as ordinary wire. This also might explain why carbon wire and Graphene wire and lead wire (!) (not that I’ve heard lead wire) sound so good, inasmuch as those materials are not crystal in nature, but homogeneous.
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georgelofi
1,648 posts
08-03-2016 7:58pm
Me thinks geoffkait is using "bot speak" for some answers, as it’s way too out there to be a human being on the other end with some of the voodoo answers it’s thinking up.
That would be illogical, Captain. Your feeling snowed by some of my answers just might have something to do with the fact that you were an English Major. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. My design of an interplanetary rocket engine using metal crystal structure bombarded by high-energy ions was almost 50 years ago.
;-)
cheerios,
Geoff Kait
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davidpritchard wrote,
"From a practical standpoint the Synergistic Research 30 day return policy allows one to audition what a fuse can do to the sonics of their system with the peace of mind that if they do not like the change they can get their money back."
if I recall correctly Audio Magic offers a 60 day return policy. That’s an even more practical standpoint, eh? In fact, and I yes I know we’ve been over this before, everyone and his brother offers a 30 day return policy. So in and of itself that policy you constantly mention is no advantage, you know, per se. when I say you constantly mention, this is what I'm referring to:
"Finally they are one of the few companies that allow and encourage a 30 day trial."
Cheers,
geoff
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davidpritchard
487 posts
08-05-2016 10:01pm
I wish everyone and his brother and their dealers offered 30 day or 60 day returns on their fuses and A/C wall outlets. Perhaps it is more common than I think, but it is just not universally true. The Cable Company does not allow for fuse returns except for Synergistic Research, if I am reading their fine print about returns correctly.
I just spoke with Betty At High End Electronics in Apple Valley, CA who assured me there is a 30 day money back guarantee policy for SR and Audio Magic fuses. I also spoke with Roger at Music Direct in Chicago who assured me they have a 60 day return policy for all HiFi Tuning fuses, including their very popular Supreme fuse. AMR Gold Fuse from UK is actually advertised on eBay with, you guessed it, a 30 day money back guarantee.
"I looked but I didn't find anything." - Old audiophile expression |
Audio Horizons Platinum Reference More Than a Fuse
"Free Home Audition
We are so persuaded that you will be positively excited by the dramatic improvement the Audio Horizons Platinum Reference More Than a Fuse will make in your sound system, that for qualified customers we will prepay the audition freight to you. To qualify, one must have an Audiogon score of 30. Others in Conus can purchase the fuse on 15 days audition time money back guarantee."
"What Makes the Platinum Reference “More Than a Fuse" So Fine?
Without betraying proprietary information, let me note that the More Than a Fuse dramatically increases the impedance from 0.2 ohms to 10 ohms at 10 MHz, thus increasing high frequency noise-rejection fifty fold over that of a conventional fuse. As a result of this increased noise rejection, one can hear delicate extended high frequencies formerly swallowed up in noise.
And because the Platinum Reference “More Than a Fuse” also reduces ultra high frequency noise by up to 46 dB or more, a ratio 200 times that of a typical fuse, high frequency harmonic texture is heard against a dead quiet background with a level of detail and refinement so sweet, delicate, and with such presence and immediacy—well, it will make you smile."
cheers,
G.K.
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Isoclean and Furutech fuses: yup, you guessed it, 30 day return policy. Have we forgotten anyone? Heck, even the Teleportation Tweak comes with a 30 day money back guarantee. Hel-looo!
;-)
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andynotadam
47 posts
08-08-2016 12:19am
I also admit to really liking some of the Daniel Lanois-produced albums from Willie (Teatro) and Emmylou (Wrecking Ball) as well as Robbie Robertson's eponymous solo album....
not to mention Dylan's Oh, Mercy
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Again with the 30 day return policy. Everyone and his brother has a 30 day return policy. Or a 60 day return policy. Hel-loooo! Why would it be difficult to return an Audio Magic fuse? Doesn’t make sense. Betty seems like a nice person who wouldn't be difficult to deal with. Judge Judy says if it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. |
theaudiotweak
1,357 posts
08-14-2016 10:44am
sent this email to a friend about my first experience with magnets instead of over sized fuses used at the time. written 3/9/08
"Pete, Had the magnets on the board when Darrell did all the upgrades and mods to the amps..You have the pictures. Tonight was WOW replaced the mains fuse..and its all a lot better. The main vocals are now at the top of my SP4 rack and the balance and pressure in the room is all most exact left to right. More detail and harmony in the highs. Things I thought were to loud on the same disc ..can just sail thru.don’t reach for the volume and jump up to tweak the balance...and shits everywhere..more depth and I can hear further into the silence at the end of the disc being played and in between cuts as they fade from one to another. The transition is quiet and seamless. Cool..Tom"
So, technically, why do you think magnets sounded better than oversized fuses?
cheers
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theaudiotweak
1,359 posts
08-14-2016 2:23pm
"I think besides the increase in conductive surface area a magnet helps focus the electron field so it is less random and becomes more organized. Like the electrons that leave a cathode in a picture tube they may leave at different angles but can be adjusted with a magnet or as an electron lens. The magnet may bend the electrons towards a common point."
What difference could bending the electrons or electron field make since the electrons are barely moving through the wire? Besides electrons are moving back and forth in an AC circuit, like in the mains fuse situation.
Tom also wrote,
"For me magnets also appear to focus vibrational energy over a given surface even one that is considered a non traditional conductor. They make for a more dynamic and organised presentation. Results in better sound."
It sounds like you are saying vibrational energy is good and therefore the more the better. Why not just employ a shaker machine? That would produce all the vibrational energy you could desire. I’m not sure I go along with you that vibrational energy is subject to magnetism. Wouldn’t the "vibrational energy" have to be uh, magnetic?
cheers
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theaudiotweak
1,360 posts
08-14-2016 6:00pm
Tom: "When the electrons direction are bent by the magnetic field then they have a shorter path to travel across the conductor."
The electrons are not the signal. Why would a shorter path for electrons improve the sound. Besides the electrons are moving back and forth as I already said. Their effective path distance is zero.
Tom: "Some electron microscopes use a magnetic lens to focus electrons."
But electric microscopes are not audio cables. How would focusing electrons change the sound, assuming for the moment magnets do focus electrons. The electrons are moving only a cm/ minute.
Tom: "Vibration can generate electricity that can react to the magnetic field."
Really? Example?
Tom: "Musical instruments generate large amounts of vibration..hear that."
Are you saying musical instruments are creating electricity?
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George, what you actually posted was,
"Please post links to proven scientific data on this, not just hearsay."
You initially said nothing about the data being non-audio related which doesn’t make any sense anyway, since who is going to care about fuse directionality except for audiophiles? Duh! You keep changing your story, which is mostly boloney anyway. By the way I like your expression "proven scientific data" - does that mean it’s been blessed by MIT? NASA? The Pope?
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Georgie old boy, the link was provided to you and you either didn’t see it or you’re pretending not to see it. It’s no skin off my nose but in any case obviously you don’t know the distinction between evidence and proof. Data of any type, including fuse data can only be considered evidence, not proof. Maybe you should consider something like a refresher course in science and logic, who knows.
Have a nice day, or night, whatever
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Georgie old bean it was posted yesterday about 7 posts up by Rodman.
"Do I see a vacuum there or am I going blind?" 😬
have a nice day
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Obviously this is just a case of complete denial. We have testimony/evidence of fuses sounding different depending on direction from almost everyone who has actually listened. We have actual data - from a third party tester - that shows differences in conductivity for fuses - all types of fuses, including stock fuses - according to direction, even in AC circuits. Fuses are also measurably sensitive to cryogenic treatment, purity of metals employed, type of fuse body, vibration control, and other things. Not to mention wire directionality has been known for ICs and speaker cables for like forever. At least 25 years. Hel-loo! Al and George must believe directional Arrows on cables and interconnects, even ones that are unshielded, is part of some worldwide conspiracy the likes of which the world has never known. This belief in a worldwide conspiracy obviously extends to fuses. I know what you’re thinking - the Laws of physics and electricity cannot suffer fuse directionality. It cannot be! But if aftermarket fuses were NOT effective and were NOT directional certainly those aftermarket fuse companies like HiFi Tuning and Isoclean that have been around for at least 15 years would have gone under by now. Al and George, the evidence is piling up. Hel-loo!
Al and George are the poster children for the Backfire Effect, where someone is determined, against all evidence, to cling to his beliefs. In fact, the more evidence that’s presented the stronger the belief becomes. It is the same thing as complete denial. One wonders what’s next from the terrible twosome - the accusation that those who believe in fuse directionality must also believe in UFOs?
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Oh, one more thing. Its worth pointing out lawyers like you know who are trained to ignore evidence, disparage contradictory or actual evidence, twist facts and put all of their energy into getting their client off the hook at all costs, even when they know the client is guilty. If the glove doesn't fit you must acquit. |
Woofie, I can certainly understand all your angst. It most likely stems from a rather significant inferiority complex and never having seen the inside of a library. So sad. 😄
Tom, good luck with all those shear thingies. |
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Back at ya, Georgie Boy, except in your case it’s an epidemic of a propensity for density.
Have a nice day, mate |
andynotadam
50 posts
08-18-2016 12:11am
David: "The enhanced spacial information, the blacker background, and overall more relaxed sound makes streaming a much more satisfying experience than before I installed the Black fuses and Black outlets. "
Agreat concise summary of the SR Black products contribute to the sound. Except for the typo. ;-)
His or yours? |
Damage Control! Damage Control!
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Let us know when you finally figure out the difference between evidence and proof. Also let us know when your hearing improves. Sorry to learn of your disability.
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The ubiquitous CD laser itself is a quantum mechanical device. Hel-loo! Specifically, a quantum well. So are WA Quantum Chips quantum mechanical. (Hence the word Quantum in their name.) So is the Intelligent Chip. One reason it's so intelligent, one assumes. So are the Bybee purifiers. He used to work in submarines. As I predicted the naysayers go bonkers over the words, quantum mechanics. Why, shucks, off the top of my head at least five of my products work quantum mechanically. No big deal. |
I have 2 Acme Audio wall outlets, also silver plated, here now but don’t use them as I’m independent of house AC. I also had one of their silver plated fuse holders way back when. Super Duper! Say, wasn’t Acme Audio Bob Crump’s company along with TG Audio? I’m pretty sure I got my first two Acme wall outlets from him back in 2000, they’re most likely still at my previous abode. The name Acme of course comes from the company the coyote in Roadrunner cartoons would send away to for all those cool contraptions like rocket powered skates and so forth. |
Theaudiotweak, you’re so funny! What fuses do I use? Ha ha ha
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What I say in public is not what I do at home? Wow! Whoa! Did you really say that? What on Earth are you going on about? I dare say we have a brand new conspiracy. You saw it here first, folks. Besides spring board thingies as you call them are better than the Sistrum ever thought of being. That’s why LIGO the experiment to detect gravity waves uses uh, springy things. Besides simple "spring board thingies" are generally a one-axis pony, anyway. Pretty sure I can tell when you’re saying something wrong. It’s when your mouth moves. I will admit I like it when you use $50 words like stasis and shear.
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Whoa! Hey, is there like a full moon out tonight?
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Davidpritchard wrote,
"Thank you for the interesting report on the PS Audio Forum by Mark. This is a good data point for those interested in the Audio Magic fuses."
One imagines those interested in Audio Magic fuses will not be the only ones paying attention to such results.
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Davidpritchard,
"I am glad you were listening to Savoy Brown. A talented British Blues Band with some real good Marshall amp powered guitar playing. They did not get much air time but they were quite good."
Gee, you don't say?
;-)
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theaudiotweak
I miswrote previous.
So with LIGO you could not place and playback any audio system in the same room as LIGO ..without IT being corrupted by the transmission of any shear wave or compressive wave..For LIGO to succeed outside its container it must duplicate that same containment where ever it travels. In your home with electronics that generate wave types from transformers motors and speakers LIGO would be a storage device for such wave types. Those devices would include diaphragms contained inside headphones and any device that has a power source or motor to drive those. They all generate shear waves and compressive waves as part of their motion .
Think about the possibility of eliminating all forms of motion..compressive and shear..then what Geoff?.Can you hear that? Anything.....Tom
I'm not sure what you’re going on about. LIGO’s extremely comprehensive vibration isolation system(s) are intended to reduce background mechanical noise to the point where the experiment is sufficiently sensitive to differentiate gravity waves, which are extraordinarily minute, from the background noise. What is the background noise I’m talking about? Well, in the case of LIGO - way out in the boondocks - that’s primarily seismic type mechanical noise produced by Earth crust motion (microseismic vibration), the primary energy of which is located down around 0 to 3 Hz. Since the interferometer I.e., laser shoots down a tunnel around 3 km long to a mirror and back, there's plenty of room for error. Therefore, extremely low resonant frequencies Fr for the isolating systems are required. So, if you could construct a LIGO at home you could obtain superior audio performance. How much is good enough? You might have to deal with acoustic waves (which are also mechanical in nature) and any residual noise on the top plate of isolation devices however that is produced with damping.
LIGO Also employs very robust vacuums around test equipment, recall vacuums are excellent at NOT transmitting mechanical noise. When I was in the exhibit with Mapleshade he had a brand spanking new Nachamichi Dragon CD player with separate DAC. The player had the capability of forming a relatively good vacuum seal around the CD transport when a CD was played. The entire Nachamichi system was isolated on my 6 degree of freedom Sub Hertz Nimbus Platform, the top plate of which employee special and highly effective dampers to deal with residual vibration on the top plate. Sort of a precursor to LIGO you could say, since that was just around the time LIGO began about 20 years ago.
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theaudiotweak
So would the vacuum of LIGO be able to prevent electron motion and its resulting vibration generated externally from an alternating current on a filament inside a fuse?
>>>>>>>The LIGO vacuum is intended as another seismic vibration *stage* - it’s not a cure all. If you wish to prevent 60 HZ hum in AC power cord or in the fuse just use *damping*. It’s not rocket science. Whereas robust vibration isolation is more complicated, no so easy. In fact that’s precisely what a lot of the modern audiophiles fuses use to address vibration - damping. Hel-loo! That’s why you will see in the HiFi Tuning data results ceramic fuses generally sound better because they don’t vibrate as much as glass. I myself would never think of leaving fuses undamped, same goes for anything carring a signal that is vulnerable to vibration, or that produces vibration, you know, like transformers and capacitors. But I digress. I’m not telling you anything you don’t know, one trusts.
Theaudiotweak
While the ac signal is not the smallest or largest wave motion it is the first in line of the many that will follow. Heck many audio companies claim the source is the most important of signals...could it be the ac fuse..is so vital as it is the first component inside most audio devices.
Hanging on this hair thin element is an 8 gauge power cord ..what kinda battle of scale and competing forces is that one. Just a projected image..Tom
>>>>>>If you’re worried about induced vibration of some kind use damping. You’ve got much bigger problems with external vibration and vibration produced by motors and transformers. Case solved. Just because a signal is a wave doesn't necessarily mean it vibrates.
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Tom, you are obviously from the old Michael Green school of "let the vibrations free to roam." I am from the school of "the only vibration is a dead vibration." You seem to be completely ignoring seismic vibrations, I.e., structureborne vibration. That’s exactly what the Michael Green school preaches. The Michael Green school has an almost fanatical aversion to damping, just like you. You come from a long line of naysayers. The Michael Green school preaches that the audio signal is vibration - just like you do - and he has same almost cultish argument that you do - that because the audio signal is a wave it must be vibration, so that damping kills the audio signal, kills the sound. It’s like you two guys were joined at the waist.
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Theaudiotweak
With a friend and associate we have identified wave types that cause interference and therefore inefficiencies in some materials and objects. We are at work on ways to reduce and eliminate those type. Isolation methods your school suggests do not and cannot separate out the needed wave portion from the one that causes interference. You need to start looking again as you stopped decades ago. Tom
>>>>>All I can say at this point is you and your friend are on a witch hunt, a wild goose chase. It’s all been identified. If there was anything left to discover trust me, LIGO would have found it and I would have found it. If there was any form of wave or vibration, anything physical, that could have gotten through and NOT been annihilated by LIGO’s isolation system, LIGO would never have been able to detect gravity waves that have an amplitude of an atomic nucleus. But they DID detect them. You are in denial. You actually believe, like Michael Green, that the audio signal is vibration. And you believe in coupling as opposed to isolation and damping. Whether you knew him or not you’re two peas in a pod. So it’s no wonder you’re off on a wild goose chase. Your news is fake!
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Tom, Wow! That’s amazing! I can’t believe it! That’s exactly what Michael Green would have said. You’re just like him. You’re his clone and don’t know it. 😬
An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - Old audiophile axiom
God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. - Judge Judy |
Almarg
By the way, FWIW that document does indicate that those fuses are compliant with various MIL-STDs (military standards) for vibration, as well as for thermal shock, humidity, and salt spray. Although of course those standards are intended to assure reliability under adverse conditions, not to assure good sonics in an audio system.
Good point. 😀 Gosh, I wonder if NASA manned missions test for good sonics in electrical systems....hey, I know! Let's get AES to do fuse testing. 😛
Almarg
To give some perspective to the 0.08 volt drop in the resistance of the fuse I used as an example in my previous post. It’s worth noting that in the USA AC line voltages are considered to be in spec if they are anywhere within a 12 volt range, between 114 and 126 volts at the circuit breaker panel.
Why is that worth noting? Seems totally irrelevant. It actually sounds like the Nixon argument regarding the missing 18 minutes on the Watergate tapes, that compared to the total time of audio on the tapes 18 minutes is insignificant. 😃
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"I really don'the know how my system could sounds much better."
"Now I really do have only 3% left to go."
"I can't think of anything left to do. The search is over."
"My system is now the best system I have ever heard."
The Last Tweak Syndrome rears it's ugly head. ;-) |
Damage Control! Damage Control! Report to bridge!
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Big deal! It's a Red Herring. Ignore the AV just like the AC when it’s traveling in the direction toward the wall outlet. You can’t hear what’s headed toward the wall outlet, only what's headed toward the speakers. That’s why fuses are directional in both DC circuits and AC circuits. CASE CLOSED.
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Al, let us know how that works out. The rest of us have already done the experiment. Hel-loo!
Cheers,
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
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How so Georgie Boy? Everyone has a first post. Was your first post shilling? You don't have to answer that.
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Aluminum dots? Are you listening to yourself? Lol
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oregonpapa OP
1,121 posts
08-29-2016 4:33pm
Geoffkait ...
If you live within driving distance, I'd like to invite you over for a listening session. A triple layer of adult diapers will be required though.
I can teleport myself. Adult diapers are part of my dress code.
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