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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


michaelgreenaudio
Post removed 
kosst_amojan
2,095 posts
 
@geoffkait
You’re silly idea about how waves in water work doesn’t even make sense on the most obvious level. If there was any horizontal motion to the water at the peak of the wave, two opposing waves would send spouts of water into the air. That very obviously doesn’t happen. They cross with a smooth peak proportionate to the amplitude of each wave and continue on their merry ways. By your theory, the two waves would physically crash into each other and nullify the kinetic energy. That’s not how waves in air or water behave.
glupson
1,794 posts
 
geoffkait,

My mentioning of me talking the talk, as practically worthless as it was, and saying that whoever would do what I imagined while not having anything better to do would be the person walking the walk meant just that. The one who fills the room with some significant Helium content and then listens to her/his equipment to investigate if there is any difference in sound would really be The Walker, empirical to the core. I have no idea what would happen but would not mind hearing someone else's experience. However, much more than hearing about that experience, I would like to meet the person and ask "Why? Why on Earth did you fill the room with Helium?" So, for that small unimportant non-experiment purpose, I am not aware that either you, or Michael Green were walkers. Good news is, he never even put one word about it, either, so he is not faking it like you and I (according to initial premise of this thread).

shadorne,

I am sorry for confusion, and I agree that Reynolds number is quite an silly input here, but it all started with the statement that a piece of equipment organizes laminar flow by being placed in its path. That, reminded me of Reynolds number which then reminded me of how I use changes of it in what I do when I am not here. That brought me to Helium and, subsequently, to an imaginary room and what would happen in it soundwise. That room (medium inside of it) would have different Reynolds number than a regular air-filled room so that was my shorthand for "room with changed air composition", I guess. I had no conclusion nor do I still know what "organizing" laminar flow (implied: already existing laminar flow) really means.
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
643 posts
 

Hi Bill333

Very nice post! This goes all the way back to recording studio amplifiers. When the amps came off the trucks from shipping we would go through them and remove the shipping ties before we would mount them. It was one of the differences between amps we took on tour and amps used in the studio. Same is true with home audio amps and other components.

The walk here is the fact that caps and the other parts (including cables) weren’t designed and spec-ed out with tie wraps around them. Glue, tie wraps, shipping bolts, chassis and other common parts are not part of the parts manufacturers design. Audio parts are very specifically designed to meet spec and when you add materials (such as a tie or glue) you are of course changing the performance. I am sure some can’t hear the deference, but I have not met many of them.

There is the problem of "over build" in component designing that is getting noticed more and more and causes many listeners to go with a designers basic models instead of flagship models. When you have too many parts too close together the parts are not able to perform at their spec. This actually causes blockage of the audio signal and makes the soundstage start to collapse or get congested sounding. I personally prefer listening to low mass components or at least ones that respond well to vibratory tuning. The Audolici A25M is an excellent example of a well laid out component. Still not light, Valeriy strategically spaced out his parts nicely. Other designers have also created works of simplicity as an art. I do not keep my chassis on any of my components. I don’t like that closed in sound. Plus if I want to do some tuning the last thing I want are plastic ties squeezing my parts. I want to use products at their point of spec design. Meaning I want to use their leads, stems and seals as close to factory design as possible.

Very good posting Bill333

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

for a reference the 40 foot system, designed by us in Nashville

grannyring's avatar
grannyring
4,637 posts
 
The tube amp referred to is not point to point wired and all the components are certainly affixed pretty darn tightly to those boards. I much prefer point to point wired tube amps sonically. I looked at internal pics. If one does not glue, or bolt, or clamp a part it is not only vibrating with the music it is potentially dangerous in a high voltage amplifier. The best sounding capacitors are made highly damped such as the Duelund CAST caps. How these realities all work together is most interesting. Removing crossover parts from the bombastic bass cavity of a speaker and placing them outboard does improve the sound. This I have also walked the talk on with experience. Why do they sound better outside the speaker cavity? Two main reasons. You correctly state one now has the room to properly space all the parts - particularly inductors. Also, the parts are no longer vibrating, but are now isolated from the cabinet.
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