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Talk but not walk?

Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


michaelgreenaudio
inna
5,245 posts
 
Michael, why do I think that you will never fit in here ? If I may, try not be an amateur psychologist and amateur preacher. You are a pro system tuner but you don’t sound like that. State your theoretical foundation and concrete ideas clearly. People will listen, and if some don’t - so what?
As a side note. Your counter-attacks are not convincing, be more precise and ruthless. Then we will know that maybe you really are a good tuner. 
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
643 posts
 

Hi Inna

I absolutely do not fit in here and honestly am not trying to. When I come to HEA sites there is something that happens that you can't see from these pages, hundreds of emails, PMs and calls. I'm here for the onlookers and those who have been RoomTune and MGA clients in the past wanting to hook up again after years of me being away from the mainstream.

What you see me talking about comes from the members who contact me directly, most of them disappointed in these types of forums even though they would love to be apart. When I first showed up a couple, maybe few, months ago I started receiving maybe 5 emails a week which quickly grew to over 50. You'll notice that I left for a while. Now I'm back for 1 or 2 days and then I'll be gone again.

If I'm going to hang out somewhere on a long term scale it won't be here. It was important for me to spend time on the Stereophile forum (got very weird there) then on this forum and a few others mostly audiophile, music and pro.

Good Tuner? LOL. Inna the people who know I tune don't hang out here. Audiogon and forums like it basically run in cycles. That's not my crowd. I was going to do a thread that I did start here on tuning but after seeing the amount of trolling it would be a waste of my time. I realize that as well do the members who have made contact with me. In other words I don't see folks who post here as people to convert to something that has already been growing on it's own with just a few appearances here from me. Believe it or not the trolling of me has been a great success as far as converting and listeners beginning or continuing to tune. So my friend I might be amateur, but the tide is turning more than you think. I'm good with that.

I learned a big lesson while at Stereophile and that is mingling with those who live on these forums is not my gig, nor should it be my goal. Inna, I tune all day long that's what I do and is what I have always done. Peddling my worth here is nothing more than saying hello to those looking to tune. Of course I don't fit in here, but it's a great place to meet folks who are fed up with the way HEA has turned out. Again not on these pages but those looking from a distance.

I hope that doesn't disappoint, just being honest as I always will be.

Michael Green

kosst_amojan
2,095 posts
 
@inna 
I think the lack of forthcoming information has been a big frustration in this thread.

Mike,
I'm looking at the page right now. How exactly are you making 20g wire, which only has a maximum rating of 11 amps as hookup wire, carry 20 amp? You're typical UL rated 3 outlet cheap chinese Walmart extension cord is at least 16g which gives it the current carrying capacity to at least pop the breaker if something goes south. Your 6 outlet power strip will burst into flames way before the outlet is tripped. There's no way you got that thing past UL. 

As for what I've built, there's no way I'd sell that amp I built. I fully acknowledge it's a risk every time I flip the switch. It runs hot as a toaster, has exposed components, the most basic inrush current limiting imaginable, and it was built by an amateur for the purpose of using in a room no warmer than 74 degrees. I watch it like a hawk and measure the it's temp once it's warmed up before I listen. Nobody should ever sell an amplifier like that. I'd have real reservations about selling my old Marantz 2238B too. I bought it out some guy's trunk in Detroit for next to nothing and it was the first thing I ever really worked on. Not knowing too much, I didn't use the right parts in some places and I kinda cobbled it together in ways that would make a serious tech cringe. My other work is a lot better. If somebody wants to know what it would cost to build another amp like the F5 I tell them "A lot more than I spent because I'm not going to hand you something that runs right on the edge like that thing does". 

I can relate to wishing people dug into the nuts and bolts of their gear a little more and better understood that there's no magic hocus-pocus going on in those boxes. It's just cold, hard science and totally understandable if you just apply yourself to it. I'm NOT a fan of this mentality that tells people to just buy and experiment and buy some more. I don't have $99 to blow to find that $1 worth of improvement and I don't think most sane people have it or even want to spend it. I strongly believe in a more analytical approach to the question. I think the experience of listening should be taken with a healthy dose of knowledge and understanding so that the next choice is efficient and informed. I'm in NO rush to make my next equipment choice because the more I learn the better my choice will be. And if I have it my way, it will be a choice that furthers both my experience and my understanding though experimentation and study. I don't suspect too many can say their amp was voiced specifically for the speakers they're using, but I can. I think more people should give that a try, but I'm not showing up starting threads lording what I've done over anybody's head. 
michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
643 posts
 

Hi kosst

Thanks for the question. The BEStrip-Type 3 is usually the one chosen for preamps. That's an effective gauge of 17. The BEStrip-Type 4 usually amps is effective gauge 16. If you want to step up to the 20 gauge the Type 3 is effective 15 and Type 4 effective 14 gauge. You work your way up from there.

The BEStrip-Type1 at 20 gauge is for light pulls like small effects units and simple sources like the Maggie player I use.

The rails inside are typical thin copper plates.

The BEStrip-Type 1 was tested on full size amps with no fatigue on the line (sounded great) but I don't recommend amps with this. Right around Type 3 is pretty nice. I also do a Type-5 at 15 effective gauge which sound pretty nice. Monster amps should really go direct to wall (no strip if possible). And I try to have them around 14 and into the wall at 14 gauge Romex, nice sound. Many codes stay at 12 gauge Romex though.

It really comes down to how your doing the house, outlets and what components. The component internal wiring is, as you know, a big deal. So I try to make a plan to keep all things balanced. Metal conduits can really screw with the formulas so you have to stay informed. Some homes for example have conduits as code and others Romex straight is fine. But there is a formula for every system and one can sound great with one set of components and then another set goes in and it's terrible, but it has nothing to do with the components as such, it's a mismatch.

Anyway I hope this clarifies a little.

Michael Green

michaelgreenaudio's avatar
michaelgreenaudio OP
643 posts
 

I should also add that the only way to really figure it all out is to do it and work your way through because there are so many things that can get screwy. Things like new or old powerlines and transformers outside the house. In the air or in the ground. And what position you are in the immediate grid. For example if you are at the end, middle or first in the chain.

Trust me when I come here I debate in my thinking how far I should go into the process because there may be one guy who doesn’t believe the outside transformers make a difference as well as the entire pathway. And then you have the next guy who wants the inner wall studs voiced, that the wire will be running through (I’m doing a house like that right now).

The electrical transformer, panel, line and amp are all really one component. That component is then put inside of a house with electrical wires surrounding the system (fields). The house is one big electrical component, really cool stuff when you think about it. And it explains why the exact same component will sound different in each electrical environment. And that's besides acoustical and mechanical. I love this stuff. To me it’s a great big active physical puzzle that we get to play with.

Michael Green

http://www.michaelgreenaudio.net/

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