This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
Thanks for reading my post. What I meant was that it seems like just wires stuck in the wall outlet. However, pictures are not that clear and that outlet is in the back so there may be something else that is there and which I did not notice. That is why I asked about it. If there is such an unnoticed thing involved, I would guess it has something to do with the orange-colored receptacle wires appear to be plugged in. It is truly intriguing to see it so I thought I would ask about the story behind it.
You are way more technical than some of us so you may understand differences in materials and what to expect from certain configuration much better. Your praise of those amplifiers is interesting although I have to admit I got lost in the description of why they work in a certain way. Still, I would keep my mind open that someone very capable could, indeed, make a Pioneer receiver sound great. Seems unlikely, but we will not know until we try. And try we cannot unless we know how to make it that good.
On a totally different note, but fully connected to that poor nostalgic-looking Pioneer we are dragging into this mess, I have another question.
Many of the modifications/tuning/tweaks are on a very small level, yet they are allegedly producing significant changes in sound. Earlier in the thread, there was talk about removing covers, freeing capacitors, etc. with some theories how and why it may work. Removing a cover from a receiver, let it be this Pioneer for this purpose, exposes it to much more dust. Would the layer of dust on electronic parts influence the sound in any way? Does anyone have any theory about it? In case it does, would dusting it off be considered a tweak, tuning, or something third? If it does not influence the sound, why doesn't it?
audiopoint My question for you is; what does hardness have to do with attack, sustain and decay qualities related to sound reproduction equipment or musical instruments?
>>>>Let me answer with a question. Why are the very hardest cones have the best performance and the softer cones like brass and carbon fiber sound the worst?
Pop quiz: Why is seismic vibration much more important for SQ than acoustic vibration or induced vibration? Especially for vinyl playback.
Extra credit: Why is the material of the top plate of a vibration isolation stand relatively immaterial, to use a word?
When you can answer those questions you will answer your own question.
>>>>So, let me get this straight. You guys apparently have a mission statement
Yes, in a nutshell...
Mission and Vision:
To create and establish a newfound science from understanding the detrimental effects caused by vibration ultimately affecting the operational performance of any equipment utilizing or manipulating power through its operation. Establishing a higher level of product operational efficiency while reducing power consumption.
and standard operating procedure to let the vibrations flow freely, right? And this mission statement and SOP obviously precludes the use of vibration isolation, right?
Yes and yes,
In fact, if I can be so bold, you guys actually believe that vibration isolation is not (rpt not) possible, correct me if I’m wrong.
Yes,
“True isolation” can never be achieved in real world applications. In audio, there are various techniques that alter sound through isolation principles however “true” isolation can never be achieved (physics, laws of gravity and motion and Coulomb’s law) in 'real world applications'.
So, are you guys claiming a scientific conspiracy of massive proportions that the project to detect and observe gravity waves LIGO uses a complex and comprehensive system of vibration isolation (they say is) required to isolate and stabilize the optics and other critical parts of the experiment from extremely low frequency vibration?
No.
We spent little time analyzing LIGO as we are in the music, sound and audio industries where this multimillion dollar experiment has no bearing on our business and - no sound.
However, even LIGO requires mechanical grounding supports for function as a non-isolation resonance energy transfer support system is used to champion their isolation techniques in a 'real world application'.
Everyone and his brother knows shape is an important aspect of isolation and energy control. That is why the Super DH (Diamond Hardness) Cone is superior in performance to the Jumbo DH cone which is the same basic size but slightly different shape. We’ve known that for more than 20 years, probably more than 25 years.
First, we are not claiming to be the originator of variable shapes.
Our research is taking us towards what is “not” totally understood regarding shapes related to vibration, interfering energy, resonance transfer and product function.
Secondly, hardness has very little to do with our technology where damping factors and mass related to material science combined with mechanical grounding techniques are more the focus.
My question for you is; what does hardness have to do with attack, sustain and decay qualities related to sound reproduction equipment or musical instruments?
We find that the "harder is better" approach to materials related to musical applications has drawbacks. The harder materials generally elevates pitch and narrows frequency range when applied to sound reproduction equipment, musical instruments and fails miserably when combined with a Sistrum geometry.
MG took his time and converted this amp into a variable music machine that now can easily rival the very best of the best.
@jf47t,
Please provide a list of what equipment you believe to be the best of the best.
While at Axpona (this year) I listened to a pair of mono-blocks in two totally different environments designed by Rick Schultz of High Fidelity Cables and assembled by Peter Israelson. Peter is a member of Star Sound and has walked in your shoes prior to me. He is one of the most gifted and knowledgeable people I met in HEA and just think, MG “left him go” too ⌣.
This amplifier design uses Magnetic Conduction Technology where magnets and nickel tubing are used to pass signal and not copper wire (MCT is protected by US patents). These two gents are very good friends of mine as we share technologies and knowledge for the advancement of sound and audio. Bias aside, I consider this amplifier design a must hear and a strong contender for that ‘best of the best’ from my highly opinionated and extremely limited list of finest sounding electronics.
Sorry to state j47t, but the materials used to build the Pioneer chassis and chassis mass disqualifies the capability of holding a proverbial sonic candle in comparison to this design. Obviously these amplifiers are expensive to own. In fact, they enter the MG world where not only is HEA dead but so are large chassis electronics - dead. There were three pair sold since their debut in January of this year which puts MG’s claims to question.
If the reports and observations provided by gulpson concerning the Pioneer power conductors sticking in the AC outlet without a surrounding casing are correct and the public is permitted into the building; makes for a great case in search of a building inspector, fire marshal and if there is ever an accident of any kind, a good attorney. Cancels the insurance policy too!
There is the removing of the chassis cover again and we are awaiting an answer as to how that works in relationship with tuning techniques as previously requested?
You create a lot of wind… but zero answers to any questions on technical and/or mechanical function.
I have no friends here, just for the record, and it is great that people went to Tuneland and enjoy it. Maybe some other threads there are more into "walking", but that one with pictures is not. In fact, posts there are very strange, to say the least. Even approaching it with very open mind, it does read like nothing more than self-praising form of poetry. People have different styles of writing and that is fine, but content is missing on that thread. Pictures are valuable, though, despite them being only teasers.
To clarify, your inaccurate rewrite of my sentence...
glupson says Please Please don’t visit TuneLand and then he asks a direct question of TuneLand LOL
has changed the meaning of what I wrote and which was...
Please do not direct people from here to Tuneland
Nice try, but still a feeble attempt to tune it your way.
I did go to Tuneland and I will probably observe it some more. I will also recommend it to other people I know who may find it interesting, even if it may be just for their amusement. What I meant was that you do not advertise it that strongly to the people on this thread as, no matter how hard you try to explain that some have migrated there, the posters here seem to be much more exact and their presence on Tuneland would dilute Tuneland itself. In short, just as what I recommended to you after your initial posts about Michael Green, you may not want to work too hard. It becomes grotesque. You have improved since then and you might have noticed that nobody is ridiculing your way of talking about Michael anymore. I understand that public relations may not be your strongest quality so I thought I might try to help. Take it or leave it. Thank you will suffice.
As far as my questions about things I saw on Tuneland go, they were a pure curiosity as it all seems way out of ordinary. They may not have an answer (orange vs. white outlet, wires directly stuck in the outlet, modifications to the receiver, maybe something else that I forgot), but they remain questions.
If you look at two or three of geoffkait's posts above, he did bring something valuable to this thread. We may agree or disagree with it in the end, but there are statements that include how, why, what, etc. If anyone responds to them with contra-argument, it will be called a discussion. LOL-ing brings nothing but a shrug of the shoulders aimed at the LOL-er..
theaudiotweak Was the nail made of a steel alloy or something more musically satisfying like a brass screw. Was the screw head then painted over and filled in with Total Contact. My choice. Tom
>>>>Not sure I go along with your detective work. Brass is rather low on my list of preferred materials for audio applications. Notice the correlation of preferrability to hardness.
from best to worst,
Diamonds NASA grade diamond hardness ceramics Tempered High Carbon steel Aluminum Carbon Fiber Brass
This is not to say other materials can be very good when used as platforms, Top plates for isolation stands, that sort of thing, but the key characteristic is usually hardness. Hardness on the Moh scale of hardness. So, this is where we kind of agree, since very hard materials allow the energy to escape the bounds of the system, especially in isolation systems.
What I propose is a comprehensive approach using BOTH energy management employing damping plus hard materials along with vibration isolation. For example the circuit boards must be isolated from the transformer and the CD transport must be damped. Just to name two. The transformer can also be removed and relocated elesewhere which is what I think MG does sometimes. This comprehensive plan of attack will ALWAYS produce the very best results. And doesn’t require constant attention and Tuning.
theaudiotweak We also have a resulting tuning method though when implemented, it is stasis by material, shape and understanding of energy flow and direction. The only change that may occurr is when we increase our understanding of shaped materials and offer them to the public to install if they wish. Tom
>>>>So, let me get this straight. You guys apparently have a mission statement and standard operating procedure to let the vibrations flow freely, right? And this mission statement and SOP obviously precludes the use of vibration isolation, right? In fact, if I can be so bold, you guys actually believe that vibration isolation is not (rpt not) possible, correct me if I’m wrong.
So, are you guys claiming a scientific conspiracy of massive proportions that the project to detect and observe gravity waves LIGO uses a complex and comprehensive system of vibration isolation (they say is) required to isolate and stabilize the optics and other critical parts of the experiment from extremely low frequency vibration? If so, surely you jest. 😀 in fact it was the development of advanced vibration isolation systems that finally led to the observation of gravity waves from an ancient merger of black holes a couple of years ago.
Everyone and his brother knows shape is an important aspect of isolation and energy control. That is why the Super DH (Diamond Hardness) Cone is superior in performance to the Jumbo DH cone which is the same basic size but slightly different shape. We’ve known that for more than 20 years, probably more than 25 years.
Is this thread now suddenly the Clash of the Tuning titans?
By the way, how is that Pioneer receiver plugged in the wall? The pictures are a little unclear, but it looks as if it is just wires stuck in the outlet. Is there some trick to that? Lower outlet, the one receiver appears to be plugged in, is orange while upper is white. What is the story with different colors?"
glupson says Please Please don’t visit TuneLand and then he asks a direct question of TuneLand LOL
It’s ok glupson no one is going to torture you there LOL. Fact is many of your friends from here have already made the move and more have emailed. Some have been reading as much as they can finding themselves in a hobby inside of this basic hobby.
"@jf47t You seem to be trying too hard. I suggest taking it slowly, conducting a self-assessment, identifying the triggers for your sensitivity (i.e., somebody suggests MG is not walking or Robert’s posts refuting MG’s version of history), exploring your emotions through journaling (maybe start a blog on TuneLand), letting go of the little things, maintaining a positive outlook. Happy walking..."
LOL, now that was good lol
"jf47t, Please do not direct people from here to Tuneland. It is not nice. Tuneland obviously has different clientele. Crowd here is way more analytical and more into "walking". Posts on Tuneland are long winding poetry (by Michael Green), call it "talking", and responses from other "tunees" read as if they are staged/fake. You do not want guys from this thread there. They would have a field day. It is better that everyone stays in her/his own little yard. Michael Green can come back here from time to time, he is much better here than there."
By the way, how is that Pioneer receiver plugged in the wall? The pictures are a little unclear, but it looks as if it is just wires stuck in the outlet. Is there some trick to that? Lower outlet, the one receiver appears to be plugged in, is orange while upper is white. What is the story with different colors?
The sad fact is that I informed people what receiver is in question before you did. I guess I woke up first. I should not mention those modifications that people were also asking about.
There may not be trolls on Tuneland for more than one reason. Here, whoever you call trolls, found it engaging. Could it be that on Tuneland, they cannot find anything as engaging? I have always praised Michael Green for starting this thread. It takes some talent/skill/feel/whatever else to do something so inflammatory. Now, when we are talking about Tuneland, I went only through one thread (the one with pictures of the room and Pioneer receiver). Maybe other threads are different, but that one had no deep discussion I could find. There were lots of deep words and almost-philosophical monologues, but not much in a way of healthy discussion. Some will like it. It could be made into a lecture.
Please do not direct people from here to Tuneland. It is not nice. Tuneland obviously has different clientele. Crowd here is way more analytical and more into "walking". Posts on Tuneland are long winding poetry (by Michael Green), call it "talking", and responses from other "tunees" read as if they are staged/fake. You do not want guys from this thread there. They would have a field day. It is better that everyone stays in her/his own little yard. Michael Green can come back here from time to time, he is much better here than there.
"I may be a troll, or I may not, as that term seems to be applied very liberally. I do not understand why we would be denied pictures of something described in details on this thread, but so be it. However, given that Pioneer receiver was mentioned, too and at least three people showed interest in learning about it, it should not take much to mention what was done to it and what model it is."
Geoff you need to wake glupson up lol
glupson lol can I pick on you a second? Have you even gone up to visit TuneLand? The Pioneer SX4300 is on full display there along with MG’s walk through the system he just did for me. Quite frankly I wouldn’t be surprised to find that a hundred or so people have scored on MG’s recommended tuning components. That’s probably being very conservative.
On the other question you pose about TuneLand again wake up. Internet forums interact and interchange info non-stop. TuneLand sends readers here and Audiogon sends readers there. Glupson that is how the internet works. It wasn’t designed to be a bunch of independent islands but more millions of boats and ships traveling to and from those islands. Each one of those islands have a different theme style and info exchange. For example the Audiogon forum is not big on words and pictures together on threads whereas TuneLand is all about pics & words. Audiogon has a marketplace system TuneLand doesn’t. Everyone of these audio forums is like visiting for vacation as well one or two becomes home base.
glupson TuneLand doesn’t have to fend off internet trolls because TuneLand would never have internet trolls it’s not that kind of forum. An internet troll would look pretty stupid and out of place on TuneLand.
In case anyone is interested, Pioneer receiver in question is sx4300. Yes, I did go to Tuneland to see. Click-bait, or not. From what can be seen on the picture, it is an older receiver with cover removed. No other signs of modification can be seen on those pictures as they are not showing inside clearly. There is also an older Magnavox DVD player nearby and that one also seems to have cover removed. I have not noticed any electrocuted cats. In fact, it was informative to go to Tuneland for those pictures as now I learned how that room looks like. It irresistibly reminds me of sauna. Lots of light-colored wood.
On the other hand, I would strongly recommend that those who find Michael Green's approach on this thread not to their liking or standards not go there. For the benefit of Tuneland and for the benefit of people on this thread who may get ballistic reading it. I read a few posts, they are long, and I have to say that Michael Green there does not appear as the one here. I prefer this one here, though.
@jf47t You seem to be trying too hard. I suggest taking it slowly, conducting a self-assessment, identifying the triggers for your sensitivity (i.e., somebody suggests MG is not walking or Robert's posts refuting MG's version of history), exploring your emotions through journaling (maybe start a blog on TuneLand), letting go of the little things, maintaining a positive outlook. Happy walking...
I believe Michael serves his purpose best by pointing readers to where the real Q & A’s are. Once this thread got past the first few pages it turned into not much more than examples proving the OP to be accurate. I’ve come up to give examples of the listening I’ve been doing meanwhile Michael has been posting on some engaging threads on TuneLand that get into much more depth which obviously attracts MG over a circle of who is a troll and who isn’t. Michael is always very busy "walking" as anyone can see who wishes to on MG’s facebook or forum or by visiting. Might I suggest this prof, if you look at TuneLand and don’t see any posts deleted because of internet trolling wouldn’t it be fair to conclude that MG has no interest in internet trolling. If Michael Green was interested in threads that do trolling why does he not have this behavior on his forum? Prof the characterizations being made here about Michael are easy to put to the test by looking at his forum to see if internet trolling is a pattern there. Obviously it is not. MG engages in deep audiophile discussions on TuneLand full of pictures and solid interacting. So Prof the mods here have been excellent at spotting the trolls and limiting their forum destructive patterns. Your painting MG as a troll or Audiopoints attempts at....whatever only has to go as far as to look at TuneLand for the reality of what Michael Green Audio does and what Michael Green the person does has done and is doing. Words pictures drawings tests reviews real time referencing plus others’ experiences all over the world past and present. You guys have been trying to go up against one of the most documented personas in the history of HEA. You can try but all your really doing is making MG’s presence known even more.
I believe the Mods in other words are more hip to what is going on than you give them credit for.
I may be a troll, or I may not, as that term seems to be applied very liberally. I do not understand why we would be denied pictures of something described in details on this thread, but so be it. However, given that Pioneer receiver was mentioned, too and at least three people showed interest in learning about it, it should not take much to mention what was done to it and what model it is.
Everyone pushes their ideas on Audiogon forums and some subtly, or less subtly, even advertise their products. That may, if not exaggerated, be helpful to participants as they learn about what is mentioned. However, using a thread on one website to steer people to another website could be described as poaching. It may not be illegal, but is surely not a gentlemanly activity. Not to mention, asking participants from this particular thread to migrate to Tuneland seems self-destructive. They have had very firm and logical questions that would shake much stronger theoreticians than those who provided answers here. Do you really want a sanctuary like Tuneland to become a sad sight defending itself only by "they are all trolls, they are all trolls"? Most of the people on this thread have nothing against very existence of Tuneland and, from what it seems, they have shown quite a courtesy not to infiltrate there.
2. If the techniques you and MG espouse are sound.
Then nothing should concern as being a "trap." If you have answers, you just give the answers. One only worries about a "trap" if one has something to hide, or if you aren’t confident in what you are presenting.
Note when MG asked me a question about capacitors, even though it was clearly a disingenuous set up to try to find a way to dismiss me, I immediately answered. No problem. There’s no "trap" if you just answer something honestly to your ability.
And of course, MG did indeed just go on to keep ignoring my questions, even after I answered his.
We also have a resulting tuning method though when implemented, it is stasis by material, shape and understanding of energy flow and direction. The only change that may occurr is when we increase our understanding of shaped materials and offer them to the public to install if they wish. Tom
It’s interesting that MG and his follower can continually accuse people of being "trolls" in this thread. They use the term "troll" to avoid interacting with any challenging viewpoint. They just toss the term around as an insult in an evasive manner and never show how it is actually warranted. Let alone the accusation of "faking" that MANY here have been asking them to clarify or back up, and which they continually evade.
Yet, when I break down exactly why MG’s posts here actually fit the classic definition of trolling...e.g. the ^^^^above type of behaviour....THAT post gets removed.
Mods, would you like to explain this apparent double standard, please?
Who else but Michael Green and his follower have actually explicitly expressed pleasure, glee, at the way this thread has turned out? That it turned out as MG planned. "Genius" his follower calls it. Does that not tell you anything?
"So with different structures which vary in content by the hour and the day you will go mad wishing for what you had previous. When was that wonderful adjustment made to each block..you forgot didn’t you."
Tom, again like with Robert, it’s unfortunate you have had problems tuning. On TuneLand we read about the different listeners’ learning curves and how they end up with their choices of tuning tools from very simple to tune all the way to extremely advanced tuning.
Also if I may many who have read this thread have been visiting TuneLand looking at the pictures asked for here, they’re not hard to find. MG respects that the line between information and promotion is a fine one but MG also realizes how the trolling has worked on this and other threads and is not about crossing that line. On this thread you see one side asking for pictures or information and shortly after you see the trolling trap set that MG is using this thread to promote. It’s a common internet trolling tactic being used by some of the posters here. TuneLand the forum supplies the answers to any of these questions and has since 2004. You can look on the archives for some of the show & tell or visit the newer forum that goes back to 2008 but still has archived pictures on it.
It was definitely a Total Contact. Nail contacted wood. Brass screw is usually quite musical, but improperly hit nail is even better. Makes you sing high notes very very loud.
Was the nail made of a steel alloy or something more musically satisfying like a brass screw. Was the screw head then painted over and filled in with Total Contact. My choice. Tom
The clubs are not made of select tonewood but rather cheap wood both will go out of tune under tension or stress..What about water content in the air and temperture in the space ? Not like your holding a string instrument in hand that can be easily retuned. Instead you have blocks of wood under electronics and speakers, no 2 have the same cellular symmetry..or mass. So with different structures which vary in content by the hour and the day you will go mad wishing for what you had previous. When was that wonderful adjustment made to each block..you forgot didn’t you.Wait until fall you may recover what once was as the leaves change in color and moisture content. Tom
We all learn from advertisements, too. However, I doubt that this thread is turning into Michael Green tuning promotion. Whoever visits appears to have already picked sides and is solidified in it. Save for a few who seem interested, but are reasonably sure they would not jump on a tuning wagon for their convenience/time/expense/doubts reasons. I would be surprised if Michael Green gets a new customer from this crowd. I am curious to see how the place, with what would seem strange to many, actually looks like. I will not know the sound, but may figure out if it even looks acceptable. I am even more interested in modifications done to that Pioneer receiver and what model it is. That way, I could put picture together with words. Maybe we will find out, once the guys have some time to answer.
Every picture tells a story, don’t it? Well, actually in this hobby, they oft don’t tell you much. They especially don’t tell you much about the sound.
I believe Michael is writing on his TuneLand thread tonight "absolutely certainly I'll snap some pictures" he said. I don't know if he's been up on this thread today we were pretty busy running around.
@prof- Brother, if you REALLY want to mix it up with a thread that will offer absolutely nothing in the way of answering questions, buy a ticket on the Total Contact train....... under ’New Tweak, It’s Fantastic!’
Thanks for pointing out my mistake as I generally make a few more with age setting in.
You of all people questioning engineering? Beep Beep - is that the sound of too much amg56 “traffic” in your head or has MG finally won you over with his compliments and praise?
I (we) are not desperate whatsoever. The On Stage Studio™ product is about to come online and will be open for auditions but it never hurts to learn why others apply different techniques that are totally uncommon.
We want to know why chassis lids, and cable connectors and barrels come off and what effect this has over the norm other than safety issues. We have our opinions of course but would like to hear the technical side from the OP walker or his assistant, the talker.
Heck, I’m trying to figure out how to keep a post alive on this thread. It’s obvious that you and me have thicker skin and do not complain to the moderators or have posts silenced, so I'm thinking you too should cut me some slack GacK.
Michael or jf47t, Please describe the mods made to the Pioneer receiver and post pictures of it somewhere we can access them. That would be walking. What you are doing now is talking.
George Carlin's "Seven words you can't say" I failed at number one: [compound word ending with #1]. Now that I have been "Moderated" I feel like I belong.
geoffkait re. "wrong thread"
...twas early in the morning and I was sitting on the "throne" so the message on my s-phone "post deleted due to profanity" had me off ballance. ;-)
I think that geoffkait may be right about his view of your most recent post, but it would also be interesting to see that studio that jf47t described. If for nothing else, then for the novelty of it. I am trying to imagine ("picture" in my head) it and cannot come up with anything but a place you need to walk around very carefully in order not to trip or damage something. I am probably wrong about that. Ok, I am surely wrong, but that is what I imagine/picture.
Perhaps brother Robert is being a tad argumentative. The other feller actually said “picture” not “imagine.” It’s a figure of speech, anyway, for crying out loud. So all your huffing and puffing about imaginary and imaginary engineering come across a little bit desperate. Cut us some slack, Jack.
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