This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?
I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?
You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?
I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?
I'm glad Stereophile was brought up. Something I have done over the past several years is watch the tide of readers and posters rise or drop. While DIY and computer audio forums are holding their own and bringing in younger crowds. HEA forums are in serious decline just as the expensive products are.
Who would have ever guessed that a forum hosted by TAS would end up folding? Stereophile's forum is almost gone or at least a graveyard. This forum is now on the decline. A few weeks ago a member here had me take a look at the activity here, pointing out how many different posters were posting on any given subject years ago and how now there are the same posters on every thread. I was not surprised, but did wonder why Audiogon would allow this to happen. Maybe they are not paying attention or maybe they are going to let it go until it is too late. Or maybe they have plans in the works behind the scenes. However it works out this forum is hemorrhaging members.
The world has changed and people's priorities have moved on from being involved in the fascination of internet trolling. As I said on Stereophile "if you don't turn away you will die" I also said that to JA directly. The Stereophile forum in a few month's of that became a graveyard. The old saying goes "it's not a matter of if but when".
People are leaving here to sell on Ebay, Audiomart and several other places. It can be debated why, but by the time that debate has concluded the buyers & sellers here will already be gone. I have no doubt at all that the owners of this site are looking to what the future brings. They've got to be aware of the market decline, but what I wonder is are they able to move from negative to positive? Whoever grabs the positive ring first will be the winner.
As for me, I'm sticking with the positives. The negative folks can continue to die off or self implode. They'll go down kicking a screaming and trying to pull down as many as they can, but the end result will be the same. To those folks I say, "Nah". How many senior citizens can you turn from positive to negative? Who cares. For every one negative audiophile there are a hundred positive ones. I've said, and continue to say, "everyone paints their own picture".
I hope Audiogon is able to find that positive place. I know the on-lookers here desire that, but for how long will the interest stay here while trolls run free? Like on TAS and Stereophile, I don't think long.
Katie You do get your wires crossed quite a few times don’t you? I have plenty of "idea" what you are talking about, the power of the internet, you know like Google search...duh. And yes been paying plenty of attention and from an early stage it was obvious you were taking no sides at all but not really provoking MG in any way. Which was interesting. And definitely not "cautioning you". I would never be so bold...or waste my time with that. The coffee is quite good this morning actually, thank you for asking.
What a sensitive young man. 😛 You have no idea what I’m talking about yet you’re what, cautioning me? How rude! If you’d been paying attention you would have notice do have not attacked MG at all while he’s been here. I gave him free passage. Yet he has attacked me directly and indirectly at least a few times. Wake up and smell the coffee. ☕️
Just so there are no misconceptions, and in the interest of full disclosure, MG and your humble narrator engaged in debates and discussions on a range of topics almost daily for a period of two years over on Stereophile magazine forum, which was then quite active. That all stopped a couple years ago. Peter and May Belt of PWB Electronics were involved heavily in those discussions and debates as were others at Stereophile forum, including a moderator. A very patient moderator. A good time was had by all. 😬
I can leave you out of, pretty much, anything, but I will have to agree with you. "When you feed it, you become a part of the cycle." Welcome to your own thread. Full of trolls, as you like to say.
Here's what I think and you can take it anyway you want, or do with it whatever you wish. Some people are insane with hatred. Others feed off of this type of thing and feed into it. When you feed it, you become a part of the cycle. Like I said, do what you wish but leave me out of it please. thanks
Two centuries were mentioned not as "for two hundred years" but as "in 20th century and now in 21st century" which is in both centuries. Span of only twenty years, but still multi-century debate.
I think these guys are just fine fighting here. No harm is done. Anything else could escalate and really be not worth it.
Actually pigeons and smoke signals and even humans have been employed for many centuries to send messages, even encrypted messages. Would you believe they used to argue until blue in face which pigeons were the most reliable and fastest? And which wood produced the best smoke for long distance reception, you know, early telecommunication? My favorite use of encrypted messaging was shaving a runner’s Head completely, writing the secret message on his bare scalp, then waiting until his hair grew back in before sending him to deliver the message, you know, in case he was stopped by the enemy. 🏃♂️ A precursor of spread spectrum communications you could say.
Yond Glubson has a lean and hungry look; he thinks too much: such men are dangerous. Fear him not; he's not dangerous; He is a noble T—— and well given.
I doubt anyone can fuel their anger in this case. If they have kept it for 20 years, there must be a lot more in there. No way any of us, you excluded, can do much about it in any way. That is the game between two of you.
My previous post was just because I do like to make sure I got everything right. Like two centuries and so on. Simple facts are facts. It does not mean anything to anybody, but me. Once you say it was my invention, I'd like to check which one of us was wrong. I am surprised you even remember who was around you for a short time 20 years ago, by the way. Not in any bad way, more like I am in awe of sorts.
Glubson is a ....you know. And a somewhat misguided one, too, not to mention a rather confused one, if I can be so bold. Of course he would opine that a troll is hard to define. Hey, I’m a poet!
I could not resist the challenge so here is a quick one. It does span two centuries. This is your post from June 4, 2018.
Robert
I don’t know what to tell you. Hopefully the Mods will consider deleting what you said, I’m not the mod here.
All I can really do is state again what I know. You worked for me for 9 months in the 90’s sometime. I guess your now claiming to know what I did 20years before that and what I am doing 20years after you were let go. That’s all there is really, except that I also distributed a product "Audiopoints" a decade before you picked up the line. And you were a dealer for me.
The rest of your story is of no interest to me except that it might trigger the report post status, which I stated above.
This thread is way too long for me to go looking for those posts, but they are somewhere in here. Who worked for whom and someone's female who could tell what happened. I think she was a witness to some moving from one city to another, but I may be wrong on that one.
Glupson that one, as interesting as it is, is your creation.
Somewhere earlier on this thread, and multiple times, there was "he worked for me for a few months 20 years ago" and "I never worked for him...". Maybe not exact words, but close enough. I did not recheck it, but I think it was about 20 years that was in question. Maybe I am wrong on that. If I am not, it would be in 1990s which is another century, so two centuries by now. Which is multi-century. Bi-century, at least. 20th and 21st. And both of you (I am not sure if it was Robert, Tom, or both on not-Michael Green side) had something to say how things went way back when. The rest of us got lost in it.
"The question now is why were they mad at me at all, and for so long?"
There are many earlier posts that give hints and clear statements. I cannot say I was able to follow accurately so you are on your own. I do remember there was someone's wife, mother-in-law, I am not sure what exactly but she is a woman, who could be a witness to say what happened. Bizarre to read it on an audio forum, but it was here.
Glupson that one, as interesting as it is, is your creation. I don't even know who these guys are past their jumping on this thread and one of them working for me years ago for 9 months. Giving it any more fuel than that doesn't have anything to do with me, past me thinking it's hilarious and them being so angry.
You have packaged it into a nice paperback novel though. I'm just glad they didn't show up at my front door with guns and knives.
Saying that, to me the mystery is over anyway because they have changed the design moving away from the audiopoint as I did many years ago. The question now is why were they mad at me at all, and for so long? If they found that they needed to change the original product as I discovered needed to be done back in the 90's why be upset?
It's very strange and a little scary, and really shouldn't have anything to do with me. but, it's still a good murder mystery script.
I think Starsound should relax and enjoy the view. Hop on the MG train. Hey, it's what put Audio Points on the map the first time around and now that their design has changed there's no need to stay mad at me (don't know why they were mad at me in the first place).
They probably should say they are not the original any more though, now that they too have moved away from the original design.
Yes, the post was well-written and I do not doubt it was truthful. It was, also, plain and very straight-forward advertising. Nothing overly wrong with that, had it not been for you repeatedly calling Michael Green on getting free advertising on this thread. You use his thread to advertise. If you do not see it that way, your anger towards him has gotten the best of you.
You might have never started your own self-promotion thread. You do use someone else’s and that is a fair game. I am not sure which one is classier. Starting your own or poaching someone else’s.
Of course, members would not pay any fee. They would just walk away. As much as I understand there is a certain animosity between two guys and you, and would not dare to think about judging who is right in that multi-century dispute, I do notice things slid in the text. I may be the only one who mentions it although I doubt I am the only one noticing.
"To my knowledge Audiogon has never done anything yet about trolls or trolling of its own volition."
Yep, that's too bad. A lot of missed opportunities for Agon. If these pages were cleaned up they would get a ton more activity. The folks who have emailed me say that there are hardly any new people coming up as compared to what use to be.
Part of that has got to be the bad vibe allowed here.
Glupson
Members wouldn't pay a fee designers would. Audio Circle is setup like that. Designers pay a small fee and the designers have their own space on the forum.
And here at Star Sound we have a published list with prices for over 60 products.. not zero, none or just 2..We have reviews and show awards on several of our designs.
We offer products that serve to enhance the sound and physical performance of select string instruments. These devices are highly considered and reviewed from players around the world.
Here at Star Sound and Tone Acoustics we test and share our science and art to benefit both the high fi system in your home as well as the live performance on stage. This becomes our mutual proving ground. It is our goal to merge the sound of the live performance venue and bring that reality into your home and studio.
The previous may sound like an ad..well we have paid for banner ads as well as posted for sale items in several different catogories going back more than a decade..Some im post ers have paid zilch over that same decade. Are they just freeloaders and users not givers? They may talk but not give. Tom
Where this above appeared was neither a banner ad, nor a posted-for-sale item. It was on the very same thread ("Talk but not walk") that Michael Green started and uses to make the world aware of his ideas. I am not his major supporter at all, but give man a break. He started a thread that gives you a free advertising ride, too.
The last few lines I wrote previous are understood by only a few..I can find virtually no mention of shear waves in solids and only in the seismic world. But shear waves travel in all solids and their polarities and energy transfer are determined by the material shape, mass and boundary they touch. I am here to promote ideas some old and some new based on what I have learned over time and experience ...the most recent catalyst being a seismologist. Shear waves are the origin of sound in most if not all musical instruments..and every solid in your audio room. Tom
Not to be a self promoter but of what website are you say I maybe pushing? I own only one website..and it is not an audio product website. It is a website for the promotion of ideas and devices for the enhancement of musical instruments thru the reduction of interfering energy and the understanding of polarities of shear waves in solids. The origins of sound..Tom
"Why should we as an individual or as a group pay a toll for a troll to perform mass promotion on all of us?"
Your statement is correct in general and it will be hard to find someone to disagree. However, remember that "the troll is in the mind of beholder" and not a hard-defined category. No matter what Internet slang claims. At the same time, this particular thread has probably provided more exposure for your products than it has for Michael Green's. Yours has been better wrapped and has had smoother presentation, delivered to us as explanations why Michael Green's products are bad. I am sure I am not the only one who read them with interest and have looked it up on your website after reading about it here. It is really not fair to claim Michael Green is getting free advertisement here when you do the same, maybe even more productively. Better stick to "who worked for whom some centuries ago". There, none of the rest of us can make judgements.
To my knowledge Audiogon has never done anything yet about trolls or trolling of its own volition. Heck I am not even sure anybody has had a serious time out never mind being banned.
Now I do know a lot of other forums work a much stricter policy including the one I was a moderator on.
But that does not ever seem to have been the norm here,much more an open anything goes relying on basic human decency and etiquette to keep it civil.
The Audiogon Forum was never conceived as a free for him sales or promotional vehicle. Why should we as an individual or as a group pay a toll for a troll to perform mass promotion on all of us? Tom
And if Audiogon were to charge a fee for a long time member a 30 to 50 dollar postal fee then I would be happy to bolt. You can be left here hearing your same old bs from the last century..zero progression.
You think I'm being hypocritical? You know, if I thought I was I wouldn't be here. If one of my friends pulled me aside and said I was I would leave as well. My friends say "why waste your time" but they don't say I'm being anything but trying to promote tuning.
I am also still getting emails from Agon members thanking me for taking the time to post here. If it were the other way around I would go. But I think Agon has an opportunity to change the face of audio forums if they want to. And, I believe this would be a big step forward for the hobby.
The OP was a troll at the outset..( dont get mad) he said.. He was here to start a fight to stir the pot he Bogarts that joint making it all his. He may share but only if your in his snake pit..He is a troll on steroids a parasitic troll one who contributes nothing at all. His products are non progressive in thought or implementation. He posts reviews from 1998..that tells us he is proud and arrogant but has not defined or refined his ideas with any new product introduction for the 21st century...If you burn off the oil from the snake your left with a snake.
Michael that's kind of hypocritical! You say you want everybody to have a voice without discrimination, but the minute somebody calls you on something or asks you something that you don't like you call them a troll!
"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses and normalizing tangential discussion, whether for the troll’s amusement or a specific gain."
Who writes the guidelines? Audiogon.
It’s Audiogon’s forum. It’s either going to be here tomorrow or it won’t. That’s a decision only they can make. We can give our thoughts on this, but what they do as a company will determine their fate. Time isn’t going to stand still for any of us and opportunities are always there if people choose to use them.
I would say 95% of the people who visit this forum have good vibes or good vibe potential. I would also say, if you get rid of the haters who can’t change their ways the rest of the people on borderline will start or continue to project their best self. When folks hang around bad vibes they in time adopt those bad vibes, however the reverse is also true. There’s no need to over think it, it will just happen. It’s all about sewing seeds. Ultimately people want to be on an upswing. For some it comes natural and for others it’s tough cause they don’t really feel good about themselves or the cards they think they have been dealt. With the folks who don’t have true self esteem you will always find two traits. One they will lie, and two, they will be the first to say someone else is lying.
The definition of trolls is pretty easy when you think about it.
All very interesting but still who decides just who is a troll and what is the definition for a troll? Ask most people here and like everything you will get a different opinion. Again I am all for it but who writes the guidelines?
michaelgreenaudio On Audiogon though, as I told them, I’m not so much interested in doing ads here until the internet trolling is cleared up on the forum.
>>>Should be any day, now. The wheels are in motion.
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