Tekton Double Impacts

I'm going stir crazy just sitting in this house. Yeah, I'm working, but still. 

On the bright side, I hear it's great working conditions in Orem, Utah. :-)

That sounds awesome, Kenny. I need to do some reading up on Aric & these tubes. 

Man, I love readings for exchanges like these. A wealth of experience and friendship shared. Plus, we've got different takes on amps! 

Kudos, guys! 

Mac, I forgot how far apart your DIs are, and how far back you listen. 

So, I spoke with Eric at Tekton, and he says that the mini-Ulfs are about 7 days out, 10 days at the max. 

This is a good things being that my loaner speakers sold, and I also sold some radials that I had. 

I'm speakerless! 

Wow, all of this tube amp talk really blows my mind. I mean, it's all really Tekton talk, if we're go by the premise that the DIs, maybe the Ulfs, and who knows about the mini-Ulfs, and near perfect conduits for your upstream gear, yes?

Okay, so what now? Heh.

When I went to Raven Audio, I was really shown that a valve amp could be just as quick as solid state. I liked that, plus there was a little extra magic, a little more ease to the brain with tubes.

But then you hear, or read things like, the 300B tube is "romantic" and good for jazz, or classical, maybe not so much classic rock, and forget about metal.

Then folks say yadda yadda about the 2a3, and now even the KT-120, and I'm thinking to myself, "Okay, then what's a good all around great tube set that will thrill all of music, and not just certain genres?" Does any animal like that even exists, and just as quick as what I heard at Raven?

Hmmm...many things to ponder as I await my mini-Ulfs.

@Aniwolfe - Be safe, be cool and be dry. My heart goes out to you having just experienced Harvey. Mother nature can be one scary mother. 

As to the Lyngdorf...I plan on getting another unit in to compare to my Linn KDS/3. I've had one before, and it was excellent, only I wanted to get away from USB. However, I'm now in a position to have shootout between the two. The Linn is 3xs as much. Imagine how much I'll save if I could sell off my Linn. 

We'll see. I have to get the mini-Ulfs in first. 

Nick

P. S. - I had previously slagged off mic-based room correction, but I've since had a chance of heart after hearing a system in a pro setup. With acoustic room treatment as part of the equation, the Lyngdorf becomes the icing on the cake. 

I'm getting my mini-Ulfs in white and installing colored lights in the ceilings when I get the speakers set in place. The lights will shine on the speakers. 

That way, in the dark, I can have any color speakers I want! 

David got the SEs because he figured his wife wouldn’t notice the difference. I mean, it’s not like she doesn’t pass these huge monoliths everyday, thinking to herself, "These are the best things that have happened to our relationship."

Okay, who would be more likely to own DIs, Edison or Tesla? 

So, has anybody heard when my mini-Ulfs will ship?

I've been meaning to ask. 

What are those speaker stands that @teajay uses? I forgot. I should have bookmarked the site. 

@david_ten

@evovist Any updates on your Mini being shipped?

I haven’t a friggin’ clue, man. This week marks the 6th week since I ordered, the 4th week after I was told they would be ready, and also 4 weeks after it was said that the mini-Ulfs would be on the Tekton website.

So, what’s the over/under that these will take a total of 3 months to get to me? Haha!

RE: mini-Ulfs. 

There is good news, bad news and even better news. 

The bad news is that I don't believe the mini-Ulfs will be ready for prime time any time soon. I spoke with Eric and he was not happy with the voicing. 

The good news is that I'm buying a pair of upgraded white DIs. These will be mine. However, as gesture of good faith and customer service, Eric will allow me to upgrade from the DIs to the mini-Ulfs whenever he has perfected them, with only the balance to pay for the Ulfs. 

The even better news is that Tekton is making sure the mini-Ulfs are perfect before sending them out. Eric believes the mUs will blow anything else away in its price range, and even way above. That he will sell lots of these (might be a big seller, only second to the DIs), it only makes sense that he takes his time. 

So, I'll have DIs pretty soon. :-)

I could be wrong, but I got the impression that the DI SEs are almost ready to go, and that the mU has quite aways to go. We spoke about the SEs, but it would be more waiting and I have zero speakers.  

It seems they have building DIs down to a science, though. About 10 days, per. 

Some footage of the Ulfs sans grills:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpVveDFRzuc&feature=youtu.be

The hurricane knocked me offline for a week, but we are okay. Massive power outages around here, though. Never been this bad before, and I’m a native.

Great footage @333Jeffery. First, I’m glad that you and your family are safe. Second, I still can’t decide of the Ulfs are ugly. Ha.

Fugly or not, I take it that they are effective in their goal.

I'll be rolling the different vintage carafes to see which one makes the coffee tastes better. Looking for a discontinued pear shaped one from the 30's. I am sure it will make the coffee taste smoother and more liquid.

I think you've just summed up the whole audiophile experience in just a single sip. 

***A word of warning before you buy from Tekton***

 

Well, it seems that I won’t be getting the Encores after all.

Tekton had sold me the DIs under the premise that they would be on loan to me until the “mini ulfs” were ready. This was on 10/02/2017, when I received the DIs.

I didn’t open up the DIs immediately. Soon after I got them I went into the hospital, and have been in and out until 06/04/18, plus losing my job on 10/27/17.

I got to listen to the DIs in March, 2018, for the first time, and again in May, 2018. I had concerns, which I expressed to Tekton when I first purchased them, is if they would be suitable for my 13x13x8 room, due to their size. I was assured by Tekton that they would be fine in my room. I wanted them to be. I even purchased new stands that would suitable for both the DIs and the “mini ulfs.” This was also a concern with my buddy, who is an acoustician, as he claimed that I would need much space for the many drivers of the DIs to coalesce. Moreover, he claimed that the rule of thumb was that the height of speakers should be no more than half of the distance to your ceiling. Now, this is a guy who teaches sound design, primarily for pro studio and mastering rooms, so perhaps he isn’t the last word for home audio use; still, what he said made sense, especially given that what I was hearing from the DIs, even with multiple room placement, as well as acoustic treatment left the mids very thick and muddy.

Nevertheless, I had hopes for the “mini ulfs” as they were a better speaker, so I was told.

In my talks with Tekton, though, I got the impression that the ‘mini ulfs’ would be in the $5,000 range, as Tekton informed that they would be directly competing with the TOTL Golden Ear Tritons, which I looked up, priced at $2,499.99 a piece, so roughly $5k. That’s my fault, however, because I guess we were talking about two different speakers, and I guess there is a higher one up the ladder from Golden Ear that Tekton was referring to. I wish I had gotten that in writing.

What’s more, I wish I had gotten it in writing that these DIs were to be traded in for the “mini ulfs.”

In fact, Tekton never contacted me that the “mini ulf,” now named the “Encores” were in production, 10 months or so later. I sent them an email and inquired about the Encores, because those are the ones I really wanted, even after my poor experience with the DIs. I suppose I just wanted to give myself and Tekton a fair shake with the Encores.

I admit that the sticker shock of the Encores set me back. I was expecting to pay $2,000 more for the Encores, but Tekton showed me a slip of paper where Tekton had written down $7,500. Tekton eventually told me that this slip of paper was buried under a mound of other papers, so they had to fetch it out.

Regardless, I informed Tekton that I was excited again about getting the Encores. I wrote to Tekton, “So, I guess the next steps are for me to ship the DIs back to you, and for me to pay the balance for the Encores and have them shipped to me. My excitement about them is renewed! I certainly hope that they do well in my 13x13 room. The room is acoustically treated, and I would certainly hate to be out all of that acoustic treatment in the room if my wife wants to turn it into a dining room. Haha!”

Tekton then confirmed the color I wanted, letting me know that they were 2 weeks out from shipping to me, and that they could help with the return shipping for the DIs.

Here it gets a little fuzzy, because I was told by Tekton that they could save me about $300 in shipping if I used their FedEx account. The strange thing is, Tekton claimed that they had heard from other customers that shipping would be about $600 to get the DIs back to them. So, if Tekton was to save me an estimated $300, then that means that I would pay Tekton around $300 to ship the DIs back, from the estimated $600 in shipping without Tekton’s help. This sounded odd, because I thought that surly Tekton does not pay $300 to ship each unit out, so if I paid them roughly $300, using their account, where does the rest of the savings go that it cost Tekton to ship their speakers to customers. I would assume it goes in their pockets, because the math just didn’t add up.

Anyway, I used a dealer buddy’s FedEx account and arranged shipping. This shipping thing was becoming a hassle, because I felt that I was getting a little ripped off. If I didn’t care for the Encores, boy I would be out more shipping. I sent Tekton an email to this affect, not getting into my health concerns (and I won’t do that here, either), but I let them know that they would get the speakers “tomorrow.”

Now, anyone with a FedEx account (at least everyone I know, including many dealers) has their account set up to get notifications from FedEx when an item is shipped to them. So, Tekton must have known the speakers were coming. I was in the middle of doing a charity thing when I decided to look at my FedEx account to make sure that the speakers had made it to Tekton okay. When I checked, much to my surprise, Tekton had refused the shipment at the dock! How can anybody in good conscious do such a thing?

I immediately phoned Tekton, asking them why they refused shipment, as we had a deal to return the loaner DIs, I would pay the balance of the Encores, and they would ship me the Encores. The gentleman on the phone informed me that he decided against that, that Tekton would not be honoring their deal with me, and not taking the DIs back, thus costing me the shipping.

After a whirlwind conversation, in which the gentleman berated me over the phone, I was informed that Tekton would take the DIs back, but that I would not be eligible to send the Encores back should I not like them. My estate attorney called up FedEx and arranged shipment back to them, whereupon I informed Tekton that they would be coming back to them, once more. Equally as shocking, at one point Tekton suggested that if I was concerned about the Encores that I could just receive the shipment, not open the Encores and sell them as new.

In other words, Tekton wasn’t concerned about me enough as a customer to contact me when the Encores were ready, yet when they found out that I had more money to spend, they were more than willing to take that cash, as long as they didn’t have to deal with me any longer.

To make matters worse, I should never have told them my health problems, but the only reason that I did was to explain to them that not only had I been ill for 9 months, but also that the “60-day risk-free trial period” that they kept throwing at me, was not applicable since I was waiting on the Encores, anyway. Yet the irony is, they kept hitting me with the 60-day “risk-free” trial period, yet Tekton changed their policy on me in the middle of the deal, where I wouldn’t be able to use the 60-day risk-free trial period for the Encores. That is, if the 60-day risk-free trial period is so sacred then how can it be altered on a whim? What’s more, before I sent the DIs back, it was sent to me in writing that I could return the Encores, only I would have to pay return shipping on my own. That’s understandable , and I was hoping like Hell that the Encores were all they were cracked up to be, because I certainly didn’t want to go through this shipping merry-go-round again.

I then told Tekton that there’s no way that I could take the Encores, paying them $4105 for the balance without having recourse. I mean, it’s pretty much every manufacturer’s  policy, these days, in this price range (and many above) to try them out in your home, so it’s not like Tekton is unique in this respect. Tekton kept saying that they cannot take a “total loss” on the loaner DIs, but I’m not sure how they could take a loss on the DIs, because even if I had sent them back under the “60-day risk-free trial period,” would they have honored that agreement and taken them back? I’m not so sure. If they don’t have a model for selling B-stock, then why advertise the 60-day risk-free trial period? Of course we know they have a model for B-stock, because they have some for sale on their website.

Those stands that I purchased for the DIs and the Encores? The manufacturer took them back, 9 moths later, no questions asked.

Anyway, from there, since I couldn’t take that big of a risk with the Encores, Tekton responded back, asking me what sort of “win-win” situation I had in mind.

I informed them that since they reneged on their deal to take the DIs back and reneged on their return policy, I couldn’t think of a win-win situation, that I felt that my back was against the wall, and that I was already out extra shipping. I suggested that they charge me a 15% restocking fee, or that we work a consignment deal.

Tekton then responded back with their version of a “win-win” situation. That they keep the DIs, which I paid $3395 for, and they give me $2,800 credit for more Tekton speakers. In other words, they make an immediate $595 by shaving off the list on me, and on top of that my money is held at Tekton for more speakers. This is all on top of me paying double-shipping, because they refused our original deal at the dock. To top that off, I had to remind Tekton that I had paid $3395 for the DIs, as Tekton admitted that they didn’t even know that I had purchased “upgraded DI.” As a slight additional insult, I never got my grills, and the DIs never shipped with floor spikes (and yes, all of the boxes and foam was checked). So, really, I never received the whole order of the $3395 that I paid.

When I asked how this was a “win-win” situation for me, I was greeted with an email saying to never contact Tekton again.

I know some of your guys have traded up to other speakers with Tekton. I’m sure it was done without a hitch, right? Of course these deals were all done under the umbrella of Tekton taking more money, as it suits them, and as it suits you.

But, I say this, if it can happen once with a customer, it can happen again. Additionally, every business is a human business, first and foremost. If a company eliminates the human factor, they have lost themselves. Of course businesses wants to make money, but one can’t put the cart before the horse. A sense of human kindness and customer service is tantamount to good business practice. Tekton knew they weren’t going to lose money on me, but because there was a risk that they couldn’t make more money off of me, they decided to be done with me.

Guess what happened next. After I got the email to not contact Tekton again, I had to call FedEx and have the DIs shipped back to me. That’s triple-shipping now. Dummy, me, right?

Now I’m stuck with these DIs. I will have to sell them, but only after I’m out nearly $800+ shipping, all because Tekton would not honor their deal with me.

There are two-sides to every story, yes? As this is a house of Tekton worship, I’m sure that I will be told to go take a powder. No matter. This is a warning to the discerning purchaser, that it could happen to you, too. Just beware. Think twice.

@jcarcopo ...I think the moral of the story is, if you're going to make a deal, you honor that deal, and you especially don't attempt to screw over the customer.

There was several times that I felt like backing out of the deal, and I even told Tekton so, but at the end of the day I needed to stick by my word, even if I didn't care for the DIs, and even if the expenditure was more than I thought it would be. I owed that to myself and I owed that to Tekton.

From now on, though, I won't trust anybody. What's more, I certainly don't trust Tekton. Perhaps they should have never made that deal with me; nonetheless, they did...so I expected them to fulfill their end, as I did mine, not turning the speakers away at the dock, and certainly not to attempt to bilk me out of more cash by using their "policy" against me, while forming a double standard.

The point is, like I said before, if it can happen once, it can happen again. There are many other points I could bring up, and things that I know, but I won't do that.

I simply wanted to spread a word warning. Conflict happens in life, and people don't often see eye-to-eye, but hey, right is right, and wrong is wrong.

I was done dirty, and pretty wrong.

@aniwolfe  - that is also a good moral! The thing is, I'm looking right now at the little slips of paper that Tekton kept my record on, and it reads "trading later when mini ulfbehrts are ready" dated 09/18/17.

In fact, on one of the slips of paper it reads my room dimensions @ 13x12x8. I remember distinctly asking Tekton on at least a couple of occasions if they are sure that the DIs would be suited for my room size. I was assured that yes, they would fit my room just fine. I mean, my room size had to be a consideration for Tekton, otherwise why write my room dimensions down? Additionally, I wrote my room dimensions down in our emails.

So, why think that the Encores would work better in my room? Well, $4,101 upgrade of additional speaker....as well as trust, made me think that the Encores would work in my room. Indeed, Tekton told me that the Encores would work in my room, even after I expressed concerns that the DIs did not. Yeah, I was trusting. Is that my bad, that I should have never trusted the word of the manufacturer? Maybe. Yet, with a smaller outfit like Tekton, one would expect honesty about my room size, as well as any other topic. Why didn't Tekton try to sell me on the Electrons?

I'll tell you: because they had more money to make by selling me the DIs. This is all about the sale - throwing the dart at the dart board and hoping it sticks.

I simply don't think that Tekton is honest, and then they became downright nasty when I called them to task on it. In fact, they became downright nasty and insulting. Take the Encores, don't open the boxes, and sell them on Audigon, indeed!

I've never, in all of my years as an audiophile, ran across a circumstance like this. Then again, I've never returned anything I've purchased for an upgrade, either.

Yeah, my bad for being so trusting. *shrug*

@waltersalas  - Well, there's nothing really to "set straight" per se. You're correct, there's two side to every story, and I certainly don't want to belabor the issue. I simply wanted to send a warning, because, to be frank, there are other people out there with bones to pick about Tekton, only they don't do it here (as much). Thank you for the best wishes.

Anyway, there wasn't a protracted shipping issue between me and Tekton. The shipping situation only served to give me further pause.

Let's see...It's like this:

Say, you ran a speaker company where you got a super discount on shipping for $150 per pair of speakers, hypothetically. I don't know what FedEx charges Tekton, but this is just an example.

So, you propose to a customer that you can help them with shipping on a pair of speakers that you have returning to them. Now do you tell the customer, "Okay, I can help you with shipping, at $150, using our account to send them back to us, but if you chose to send the second pair back, you are responsible for your own shipping?"

Or, do you tell the customer, "Okay, I can help you send with shipping, using our account, and based on previous shipping quotes from customers, at $600, I can save you roughly $300, making your shipping to us about $300. But, if you choose to send the second pair back, you are responsible for your own shipping?"

I don't know about anybody else, but I would do the former, having successfully run a business of my own. I would not pocket the balance of $150 under the guise of doing the customer a great favor.

In other words, you go through shipping with Tekton, yes, you might get a break from what it would cost you on your own, but Tekton knows that they can also make a little scratch by depositing the balance. 

I didn't like that feeling, as I asked Tekton if $300 is what they pay FedEx to ship their speakers. The answer was no. Of course it was no.

As to us common fare, shipping speakers without "help," I paid $500 to ship some speakers to a friend, 215lbs a piece speakers, in crates, via FedEx freight, once. Maybe I'm daydreaming, or seriously out of touch, but that's the way it went down. Indeed, if the DIs had been a one-way journey, it was $129 to ship them from Texas to Utah, by weight and dimensions, insured w/ signature. This was through a dealer friend of mine.

But no, there wasn't a long haggling process over shipping. I ordered the color with them, they told me it would be two weeks, I agreed to pay for the upgraded Encores, I shipped my speakers out, and then Tekton refused to take them, knowing good and well by email, and by FedEx alert, that they were on their way.

All of the stuff that happened in the middle, was just a Tekton throwing a fit, based on assumptions, and backed by nothing, save for the falsity of their own words.

teajay

1,077 posts

09-23-2017 10:40am

1) To have the DI's only 18 inches off the front wall would almost certainly negate them being able to produce a deep sound-stage or what you called depth in the sound-stage layering. I ran this experiment many times and to get the sound-staging/layering you were missing takes at least three feet off the front wall.

 

The best way to get away from the front wall is to have zero front wall. I have a 13x12x8 room, but I recently found this neat workaround. The only rub is that you have to have the right room, and not many have.

I flipped my room to a 35 degree angle, which lead to each speaker being placed in front of two alcoves. The speakers ports, therefore, fire into emptiness...or, if one wants to be technical, the closest solid object to the rears of each speaker is 8 to 6 ft away.

Once you get away from hard right angles in the room (a sufficient enough cant), then the reflection points from each speaker do not misaligned from left to right and right to left in a room, bouncing off the walls at unnatural angles.

See a quick and dirty diagram of my room (It's not to scale).

https://imgur.com/LHaCBkh 

The result? It was actually scary. Even without any room treatment - as I've gutted the room in preparation for a dedicated setup - with the sound bouncing around like crazy, and with those crappy  Dynaudio 340s, with no front wall behind the speakers, the bass and mid-bass (lower mids) immediately snapped into place, as natural as can be.

So, obviously I wasn't hearing much depth and layering, due to the bare room with hard walls. The impact of this setup was nevertheless experienced. I take it that having reduced the front wall considerably, in addition to the side walls - because there are no room walls that are square with the sides of the speakers - having some treatment in the room should add that width and depth to a point where the front wall is less detrimental to the sound. 

Which dovetails into...

brotw

32 posts

09-24-2017 10:47am

Mac,

So true about having a room all to yourself. I can already imagine my wife's response to the room treatments.

Once the DI's arrive and treatments are placed, I'll check in with the results.

 Room treatment, you don't say? GIK?

I've been speaking with GIK and we have a rough plan for my room. However, since I don't have speakers (except for the $15k Audio Physic Speakers sitting in my garage with busted bass drivers), I really can't move forward with GIK. So, I'm very interested in your experience with room treatment.

I should be getting my DIs relatively soon.

Until then, I went ahead and purchased a DB/SPL meter, because I want to see where my hot spots in the room are. Of course you need speakers for that, too. But I'm getting there. The point is, I don't want to just blindly guess with mirrors and lasers to treat all the spots in the room that are giving me trouble.

james_w514

106 posts

09-25-2017 12:11pm

@jcarcopo

I was using the Benchmark DAC3 HGC direct to a Pass Labs X250.5 with the Double Impacts and the pairing was a bit too harsh. It had gobs of detail and great bass but it was unlistenable at times. Maybe it would be more manageable with a different amp.

Could it be that Benchmark simply makes bright DACs that masquerades as hi-def? That has certainly been my experience with Benchmark DACs, going back several generations, including the DAC3 HGC. They sound much like the Mytek offerings. At first it's like, "Wow, listen to all of the clarity!" Next, you find out that the DAC is just "EQed" that way, for lack of a better term.

Lo and behold my white DIs have shipped! Wow!

Of course these are transitional while I await the mini-Ulfs. Moreover, I can burn them in every day, but my serious listening will be limited because my room is gutted at the moment as we remodel.

I just wanted to say, I never thought I was badmouthing Tekton (perhaps playing a little devil's advocate), when I threw out some of my concerns; nevertheless, Eric has taken care of me. The customer service ended up being superb!

In the end (at least this "ending"), I am glad that Eric didn't try to rush these mini-Ulfs. He didn't like the way they sounded, so he went back to the drawing board, so to speak, to make the best product he can.

The question is, will I fall in love with these DIs and not want to part with them? I've never heard them in a treated room, so perhaps in my room they might be resolving enough. We'll see. :-) 

The eagle has landed. I got my DIs this morning, but I had to bail, and didn't get a chance to open them. I will when I get home.

At first glance, though, I'm wondering how you get these speakers out of the boxes without tearing up the packaging.

How did you guys do it? I imagine opening them up from a side seam in the box, that way, when returning them, you can tape the box up while making sure the speakers remain upright.

You should have made an "unboxing" video! :)

Ha! Yeah. I would be a little less gentle perhaps (or maybe not) if the speakers weren't going back at some time in the future for an upgrade, but as is, I want to make sure everything is perfect. There were a couple of small dents in the box from shipping. I've taken photos. I hope these don't prove to be problematic.

Anyway, once I get them out, let the breaking in period begin. The cool thing is, I can leave them on all day doing their work, and most of the night, as well. I need to get snappy with my room treatment so that I can actually sit down and enjoy them.

Yeah, I'm breaking in my DIs, so I've had nothing but all of the Tom Petty albums playing on a loop all night.

The DIs sound good, even in my bare room with nothing in it. That's pretty cool. They sound better than any other pair of speaker I've had in there.

In other news, I spoke to Aric of Aric audio last night, and this is one cool dude! I think I'll be pulling the trigger soon.

They sound better than any other pair of speaker I've had in there.

That's impressive. Any additional details?

Well, yeah, now granted I'm in an echo chamber in that room, getting ready to paint, and put some considerable acoustic treatment in, but I've had EgglestonWorks Andra IIs, in there, Audio Physic Avanti 30th Anniversary, Vienna Acoustic Liszts, Dynaudio 340s, and some Decware ERRs, and....

...I'm not kidding, it's not about just getting a new toy, but I immediately heard that evenness from top to bottom. Well, almost, even. I wonder how much is the room. Seems a tad bass shy, but then again I don't have them on any stands, no spikes on yet, and I might be purchasing an Aric audio amp.

When I left home, to really get them kicking, I put on a bunch of hip-hop, and then things started cooking in the bass department, but then again, that's what you'd expect from old skool rap.

Do you guys think getting them off the floor will help in the bass?

Aric is great to deal with. He's finishing up my amp and will probably ship at the end of the week. Which amp are you looking at of his?

Tom,
I'm looking to get one exactly like yours! :-) 

You guys should just skip all of the hassle and get the Linn KDS/3.

The input is straight off of any music server via ethernet cable, so you can say goodbye to any colorization from USB cables and any extra box between the source and a DAC. 

It is similar to the Lyngdorf in that it waits until the last possible moment to do the analog conversion. It runs through an FPGA, first, where it bests any up-sampling I have ever heard, even the Chord DAVE (and especially PS Audio), and some of the best R2R DACs I have heard in my home, like TotalDac, Metrum, and the Yggy.

Every internal process of the Linn KDS/3 is governed by its own power supply, unlike 99.9% of the other units out there (if there are some like the Linn, I don't know about it). The importance of these power supplies cannot be expressed enough. There is a large margin for error in any DAC that has a single power supply that runs every process. Artifacts can be introduced at every stage, depending on the complexity of the DAC's architecture, and let's face it, DACs are growing more complex by the minute. 

Finally, there is the pre-amp, which is akin to the Metrum Adagio pre-amp, in that the volume does not produce any distortion upon raising it. This is actually a rarity, and manufacturers won't publish spec on their pre-amps lest the user sees an aggravating rise in distortion.

Anyway, I'm in love with mine. I don't think I'll part with it. Y'all should look into one. Oh yes, and it comes with Linn's own room correction.

My DIs have been breaking in for almost 72 hours now. I haven't been doing any critical listening, because my room is on its way from crap-to-good, but I walk by and I hear things in songs that I've never heard before. The snare hits and cymbal decay is amazing.

evolvist, The KDs/3 is not a current product, and the Linn site doesn't show a single streamer/DAC with a power amp built in?

https://www.linn.co.uk/hifi-separates/network-music-players/klimax#klimax-ds 

The breakdown is like this:

K = Klimax

DS = Digital Streamer

3 = Katalyst Engine

This came out in December 2016 as an upgrade to the DS/2. The Katalyst engine is what took the Linn to a new level. The difference between the DS/2 and the DS/3 is akin to the distance from Earth to Neptune. A totally different approach.

So, yeah, I can see why just looking up "KD/3" might cause some confusion. :-) 

Oh, and yeah, there's no amp in it. It's a streamer, DAC, and pre-amp combo.

Well, no, it's more than just a DAC and pre-amp in that it's a streamer, as well. Moreover, it's quite possible that the DAC section alone kicks the hell out of just about anything put there, including the Lyngdorf by more than a few miles. I've had the Lyndorf in-house for an extended period of time. 

You comments are interesting and somewhat contrary to the near universal praise of the Lyngdorf by those who have heard it. I get the impression that Kenny is as impressed with the Lyngdorf 2170 as much as Grannyring is.

I don't believe my comments are somewhat contrary to the near universal praise of the Lyngdorf.

I, too, was impressed with the Lyngdorf. So much, in fact, that it competed with the might Chord DAVE. Indeed, that's when I began to question how much of Chord's sound quality was in the power of suggestion versus a "real" quantifiable judgement in SQ improvements.

However, there are different levels of heaven. If it weren't so then we wouldn't have nothing demarcating "this" from "that," or "that" from "this." The Linn just happens to be on a different level above anything else I've heard after considerable scrutiny. It has nothing to do with cost (though I'll admit that I didn't pay anywhere close to retail for the Linn).

My mention of the Linn KDS/3 was to add a little sauce to the discussion, whether readers think it's a real-world option or not. The fact is, in the audiophile world, the search for the last 1%-3% of SQ is again, using distance as an analogy, the greatest distance to traverse in our search for nirvana. It is within this far distant realm that the Linn lives, at to me that might or might not incur an acceptable cost to performance ratio. People spend much more in those last percentages on cables, cords, and magic hoodoo boxes.

That said, USB is dying - or at the very least it should be killed - for there really isn't a reason for digital streaming to go through a separate box to get to your main processor. It's a whole sub-industry that functions on antiquated technology: one that is flawed, and becoming divisive, not to mention the almost universal skimping on more robust/delicate internal power supply integration. Too many cookie-cutter products out there, which the Lyngdorf is not; nevertheless, short of HDMI as a transfer protocol (which isn’t galvanically isolated), the inputs are as standard as the rest of the “standards.” Galvanic isolation is also a must when you’re spending $5k-$6k on a unit.

I would say that the Lyngdorf is a smidge darkish, but only a tad. I attribute this to the Class D integration, which, in the Lyndorf’s case, a far sight better than too-bright signature of competing Class D like NAD. The effect is that it imparted a little warmth, which was very pleasing.

At the time, the Lyngdorf was driving my EggelstonWorks Andra IIs, in a very open room with lots of furniture, so the room correction worked its charm, though without being setup properly, it could also sound artificial. With a little work (though not much) I got the unit singing!

Also, at the time, the Lyngdorf’s competition was the Chord DAVE and the Metrum Adagio, both DACs using either the Benchmark AHB2 or the D-Sonic amp I had in at the time, to compare upper-echelon Class D.

In the end, the Lyngdorf was a great performer, and I went with the Chord DAVE, because at the time, admittedly, I bought into their business model, which I later found to be lacking, despite the excellent SQ. Could I have lived with the Lyngdorf? That’s tough, because I knew I was getting an ever so slightly skewed, though pleasing, performance. Then again, what isn’t skewed one way or another, for better or worse? Everything is colored, but for me, I try to whittle it down to the lesser of an evil in my evaluations.

Eventually, of course, I went with the Linn KDS/3 because it was the Chord DAVE + the Chord Blu2 in one unit, with the extreme benefit of having a direct ethernet input, Chord-like power supplies for every phase, to ensure signal integrity, and a pre-amp volume without degradation and/or added distortion when you goose the volume. Also, like I said above, although it doesn’t have an amp like the Lyngdorf, the principle is very similar, in that the signal has its final conversion right before the RCAs or XLRs, in affect keeping it digital until the last possible moment (the Lyngdorf might have the edge of this, though, even if it doesn’t matter for the above reasons, and more). Throw in the Linn room correction and periodic software updates, and those are added bonuses.

I don’t do benchmark tests, although I enjoy reading them, but I care about specs to a certain extent. I’m still learning (shouldn’t we all?), so I’m always fascinated by reading thoughts and feelings on other people’s gear. However, there had to come a time where I quite auditioning the latest flavors, bringing in $50k worth of MSB, dCS, and TotalDac to audition. My pockets aren’t that deep, and it’s a good thing, too, because lesser priced units like the DAVE, the Linn, the Lyngdorf, the Metrum, and the DEQX were “destroying” them, as they were “miles better,” the former units being priced for people with more money than sense.

This is what I was getting at in an earlier discussion today regarding the Linn and Lyngdorf cost ratio and performance. The High End market can "sometimes" be deceptive and contrarian with regard to cost, prestige and pecking orders. Very tricky at times.

See, you were probably trying to get at this, by being polite, but you really didn't get to the you're-so-full-of-crap part. That's very tricky at time.

Here's the deal though, perhaps I'm thinking on a quantum level. We all pay a certain price of admission, whether we buy some junk DAC for $50 bucks, and call it the best, of a $50k DAC and call it a turd. One might get you a seat to watch the game, while the other probably puts you in a skyebox, meeting the cheerleaders, getting player autographs, and sipping something a bit better rated than Ripple.

I mean, you can drive a Pinto and call it a Cadillac, but you'd be wrong, even though in your mind you can imagine the Cadillac chassis around that Pinto engine. There are DACS like that, too.

The point is, again, that last 3%-1% is a real mother. That's where most of the bread is spent, or most of the fretting lives, over that list small bit of SQ. That was what I was getting at, and I'm saying it. Like the once you get down to a micro-cellular level, the distance between two subatomic particles might as well be relative to the distance between the earth and the moon.

That's it. I chose to buy my 2%-1% in one chunk, instead of spreading it out over various devices and such. That leaves 1% more for other junk like speaker stands, some snake oil, and the various audio tweaks I can't wait to not spend much more money on, lest I find the cost-to-performance ration too much to bear.

I

n the case of the units you mentioned which provide DSP-based corrections (Linn, Lyngdorf, DEQX), that you found superior to much higher priced DACs, was that superiority contributed to by the corrections, or was it true even with the corrections disabled?

Also, which DEQX model were you using?

The HDP-5. It belongs to a guy here in town, and he left me use it for a few weeks in exchange for the DAVE. I thought the DEQX was great, but was probably more reliant on correction over the other two. That doesn't mean "bad." The guy who owns the DEQX has that thing dialed in to perfection, in the smallest dedicated room I've ever been in with full sized speakers (Revel Salon IIs). It sounds like a recording studio in there. As you know, the DEQX has a learning curve and so much you can do with it. It's astounding. Plus, it was the first DAC I tinkered with that had an Ethernet input. When I heard the difference I knew I wanted one, or one like it. When I learned the science of going RJ45, then I knew that I could never go back to USB.

Back to the DIs, though: my pair has 123 hours on them now, and they are sitting on bare stone floors, still without spikes, and these already sound better in my room than any speakers I've had here.

@charles1dad  - Here's the rub: I didn't mention the cost of the Linn in my original post, only it's features. You, and others, brought price into the conversation, which is cool, but as the conversation morphed it became apparent to me that we were no longer talking about SQ, alone, but SQ+$$$. That's cool, too. 

Me, like everybody else who doesn't consider dollars to be a status symbol, would much rather take the less expensive item that sounds great over the more expensive item that also sounds great. Yet, even though I didn't imagine this conversation would turn into money, I played along under the premise that yes, sometimes the better product does come at a premium, even though you saved a ton of money on all of the other products in your system.

It's the nature of this thread, though, isn't it? If I agree with everyone (which I have) that the DIs kill much more expensive speakers, everybody gives me a pat on the back. If, on the other hand, I suggest that a piece of upstream gear that costs more is better than one that costs less, the reaction is, "Whoah, okay, let's examine this. It goes against the premise of this thread." I didn't mention money, nonetheless, it came up, which tells me that this has become more agenda driven over the openness to why one person chose the Linn over the Lyngdorf. My choice had nothing to do with cash, and it still doesn't (at least to me). Even the DIs have little to do with money. The cost of the DIs is merely a boon. Since my pockets are not deep, of course I'm thrilled over the DI's price, yet I want performance, first, so if the DIs had come in at $7500 a pair, I wouldn't balk at them. Would you?

Wait, do you own the DIs? 

It's true, there are a lot of hi-fi items priced too high. I tried to save money by going with Geico in 15 minutes or less. It just didn't take hold. I'll leave it at that. 

Hey Greg, yeah, man, I'm amazed with these DIs, and I haven't even got my room treatment in yet. These have tripped me out so far. 

Last night I did some critical listening for the first time. Granted, I have a long way to go with my recently gutted dedicated room, but damn, this is what it's all about. I might just skip the whole upgrading to the mini-Ulfs, and roll with these DIs. 

Piano sounded real. Like right there in the room "real." Tom Petty started singing and I swear his ghost was right there with me. Now, I was a little lit, but I listened to the same tracks today and they sounded the same...

...and to me, when a speaker can reproduce the lower-mids, even under sub-optimal conditions, that's a sign of some beautiful speakers. 

@hfaddict - What is it that you understand about about compressed vs. non-compressed music? 

It's true, from my findings, so far, that the DIs do not artificially goose the bass, as they are more of a pure transducer. However, they are also monsters when it comes to bringing out the dynamics inherent in any recording. 

This brings us full circle to compression, as digital compression used in modern mastering (whether it's remastering an older recording or a newer one) kills dynamics. The human ear is not designed to hear everything at one level in a recording, because the ear/brain is naturally inclined to take in dynamic stimuli, as we experience it in our world around us. 

To that end, I'm simply trying to get clarification, only because, as a general rule, digital compression, especially in the mastering phase of a recording = bad. 

The "weaker" compression heard in some classic rock recordings can generally be attributed to mastering engineers, at the time, being taught to use compression sparingly in the mastering phase to keep the dynamics of a recording. In other words, what you hear as a lack of bass is what you're suppose to hear, because that's the way it was recorded...and then mastered accordingly. Take that same recording, and then put it in the hands of a hamfisted modern mastering engineer, and he'll probably get you that louder bass from the recording, but it cuts out the artistic integrity inherent in the original master. 

Of course there is also analog compression, via tubes, which can also be abused, e. g. The Kinks early Pye recordings, The Beatles Revolver, etc., but those are outliers. 

For me, I have to get my DIs off the floor, because I've heard from many that I'm simply not get a realistic bass response from them, no matter what music they're playing. So, I'm investing in some platforms. This might help you get a more desirable bass performance from your older classic rock. 

Dig? 

(Excuse any typos, as I am on my phone) 

Out of curiosity, when you say you suspect you may not be getting realistic bass response, are you referring to output or clarity or...?

Yeah, I mean, I'm entering into the world of speculation, because I haven't experienced it yet, but it makes sense, that getting proper stands for the speaker should give better bass clarity. Depending on how the room is set up - the geometry and lack or presence of of room treatment - might bring out the bass a bit more with that clarity, or maybe not. Again, this is speculative on my part.

I guess I'm saying that clarity should trump volume in the older recordings, because perhaps with more clarity that covers more sins vs. amplitude and muddiness.

I have absolutely no desire for the upgrades and finding the “perfect” synergy with the pairing of the 2170 and room perfect means I will step off the merry go round and just enjoy the music.

That's fantastic news, Kenny! I look forward to reading your review of the Lyngdorf. 

It might sound odd, but I've grown a bit weary of tinkering and tweaking. I would like to get off of the merry-go-round, as well.

With the DIs it's getting closer.

I didn't care for the GE Triton Reference. 

That all important lower-mids just wasn't there, and I was pretty sure that no room could compensate for it. Perhaps EQ. Of course there are a ton of speakers that don't do lower-mids right. The DIs are not one of them. 

Absolutely. I'd also add the two ww's. Toga party at teajay's, anyone? : )

That's gross, dude. :-)