The Emperor DAC has no Clothes


I currently use the Rega DAC in a system comprised of Merlin TSM-MXr speakers on Skylan stands. Amp is the Manley Stingray II tube amp. Oppo CD player and Mac Mini feeds the Rega DAC with Pure Music and Cardas cables. My friends system is currently using an ARC integrated with Vanderteen 5a's. He's had the W4S Dac II, EE Minimax Plus, ARC 8 DAC and is currently trying out another borrowed Rega because I won't loan him mine again!

In recent weeks we've tried these DACs in both systems, tweaked and tried various setups. I posted in another thread that the Rega won out against the Minimax Plus and the W4S 2 and that he was partial to the little Centrance.

So here's the thing. The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units! And by "struggle" I mean we use top level recordings and LISTEN LIKE MANIACS again and again. 99% of the time we could not pick these units apart. 100% of the we find that we could be happy with ANY of them! Of course there was a preference for the Rega and the ARC, but boy was it slight! The smallest tweak could shift the balance. A different set of cables, speakers or higher ceiling could easily effect things.

Between the two of us we have something like 65 years of experience with audio. I find it absolutely hilarious when someone posts that a DAC sounds "much" better than another DAC. How is it that we can't hear the same thing, nor can ANY of our friends? We certainly hear a HUGE difference in speakers and amps and very audible ones with cables. But GOOD stand-alone DACs appear to be doing a very good job. MOST people simply list the one or two they've heard in stores as their favorites. If you're looking for a "safe bet" in a DAC you can go with ANY of the models I mentioned above or some of the other fine units out there. Unless someone has your exact system, in the same room and your precise tastes, try not to worry overmuch about DAC A blowing away DAC B.

This was most apparent in trying out the EE Minimax Plus. He tried various tubes and it always sounded best in SS mode! And in that mode it sounded quite like all of the others and about as good as the much less expensive Centrance. So the point of this is to put your efforts and money into speakers and amp/pre. That's 95% of the type of sound you'll get. They determine the character of the system more than anything else.

Cheers!

Rob
robbob
The only way to compare DACs accurately is using a really low jitter digital source IME. Otherwise, what you are hearing is the DACs ability to reduce jitter a little, not what the DAC can actually deliver.

Case in point:

A good friend of mine uses a modded NOS DAC based on the TDA1543. Drives it with I2S. With a typical CD player driving this DAC, almost any newer generation DAC will sound better. However, when you drive it with a really low jitter signal, such as a computer source, the NOS DAC takes the lead by a fair margin.

The point is that some DACs need a really low jitter digital signal to shine. If you dont have this, then the other DACs appear to be better. What you are hearing is just the jitter of the source.

Another case in point:

http://www.avguide.com/review/peachtree-audio-idac-tas-214

One of the conclusions here is that the digital source is actually more important than the DAC. I agree.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
So Audioengr, other than the renowned MAC Mini, what are some examples of reasonably price yet quality digital sources with low jitter? Any laptops besides the Macbook Pro?
The founder of Musical Fidelity, which hawks the $300 giant-killer V-DAC, posited that "most high-end components offer incredibly bad value. . . about four to five percent of the cost of good value high-end electronics is in the actual electronics that do the work. The other 95% of the cost is in the metalwork and other items that don't contribute to sound production or sound quality."
I was intrigued enough by his viewpoint to buy a V-DAC, and it is in fact a very good product which to my middlebrow ears sounds as good as better as some much pricier, fancier DACs. I've also discovered some really cheap DACs (most recently the MCM/Behringer 50-774) which do remarkably well. Bottom line, I deduce, is that chips, opamps and the other little electronic bits which actually influence sound are very inexpensive, and most people shouldn't have to invest megabucks for sonic improvement.
To the fellow who has the dealership....you're the first person I've heard say that the Vandersteen 5a's are not a highly resolving speaker. My Merlin TSM-MXr's are also noted for being fairly good when it comes to getting the details.

Naturally...My system, which costs 16K or so is not the end-all system. It's quite modest compared to some. My friends system costs close to 40K and I'll also admit that it's still not the highest end. If this level of gear is holding back these DACs then please stop the world cuz I wanna get off!
;-)

Mr.Tennis....I've posted elsewhere that we found the Minimax Plus more restricted in soundstage, tubby in the midrange and just less musical with the tube stage. The owner borrowed some nice tubes and was never satisfied the way he was in SS mode with tube removed. It just wasn't the top pick with our systems, but it could easily be perfect with others. Listening to the Minimax after so many raves is one of the things that started my skepticism.

Again, I do hear differences, but sheesh, are they small! Perhaps it comes down to language.

Rob
"one more thing, regarding the minimax sounding better in solid state mode.

no one says in what respects the sss mode sounds better. "

Mr. Tennis - In my system, the SS mode came across as having more detail and resolution. Tube mode came across a bit muddied or veiled in comparison. This is with the stock tube. Hope that helps.