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The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

I currently use the Rega DAC in a system comprised of Merlin TSM-MXr speakers on Skylan stands. Amp is the Manley Stingray II tube amp. Oppo CD player and Mac Mini feeds the Rega DAC with Pure Music and Cardas cables. My friends system is currently using an ARC integrated with Vanderteen 5a's. He's had the W4S Dac II, EE Minimax Plus, ARC 8 DAC and is currently trying out another borrowed Rega because I won't loan him mine again!

In recent weeks we've tried these DACs in both systems, tweaked and tried various setups. I posted in another thread that the Rega won out against the Minimax Plus and the W4S 2 and that he was partial to the little Centrance.

So here's the thing. The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units! And by "struggle" I mean we use top level recordings and LISTEN LIKE MANIACS again and again. 99% of the time we could not pick these units apart. 100% of the we find that we could be happy with ANY of them! Of course there was a preference for the Rega and the ARC, but boy was it slight! The smallest tweak could shift the balance. A different set of cables, speakers or higher ceiling could easily effect things.

Between the two of us we have something like 65 years of experience with audio. I find it absolutely hilarious when someone posts that a DAC sounds "much" better than another DAC. How is it that we can't hear the same thing, nor can ANY of our friends? We certainly hear a HUGE difference in speakers and amps and very audible ones with cables. But GOOD stand-alone DACs appear to be doing a very good job. MOST people simply list the one or two they've heard in stores as their favorites. If you're looking for a "safe bet" in a DAC you can go with ANY of the models I mentioned above or some of the other fine units out there. Unless someone has your exact system, in the same room and your precise tastes, try not to worry overmuch about DAC A blowing away DAC B.

This was most apparent in trying out the EE Minimax Plus. He tried various tubes and it always sounded best in SS mode! And in that mode it sounded quite like all of the others and about as good as the much less expensive Centrance. So the point of this is to put your efforts and money into speakers and amp/pre. That's 95% of the type of sound you'll get. They determine the character of the system more than anything else.

Cheers!

Rob
robbob
robbob OP
273 posts
 
Chayro, I agree 100%. It's just that there are more ears than mine who listened to these DACs and no one heard a big difference. Over time the differences became smaller or at least seemed so.

The associated gear is quite good. The listeners are experienced. We HEARD DIFFERENCES, but found them far from impressive and variable depending on recordings, which in turn made some of the differences a wash.

It's also my belief that the average buyer chooses a DAC based on reviews and maybe comparison to 1 or 2 other units. Certainly we cannot evaluate the way we do with speakers. In spite of my carrying on about this, I also bought my Rega DAC with minimal comparison. I got a loaner from Signature sound and compared to a few units my friend had. That's not much of an evaluation against the 30 or more speakers I listened to before I bought Merlins. Show me the showroom that has 10 DACs set up for a clean head-to head comparison. Many don't have any.
I don't doubt people's hearing, but I greatly doubt conclusions made from a very narrow range of listening experience. Hooking up a certain DAC with perhaps the best reviews going, we were sad to hear it was "about the same" as much less expensive DAC. Changing a powercord brought about more significant changes.

My main point is that some sort of "scale" needs to be employed. When people claim the Bazooka 5000 DAC destroys the SuperNova 10 there needs to be a more accurate representation as to what the differences amount to musically.

Rob
robbob OP
273 posts
 
Sibelius, sometimes tubes don't match tubes in other components. It's not very scientific, but they can sound tubby and muddy when synergy is poor. My friend sold his Minimax Plus to a fellow using a system using Revel speakers and SS power. He's pretty happy with the tube stage of the Minimax. It just didn't gel with my Manley tubes or the owner's ARC stuff.
I do think more and more people are getting turned on to the minimax plus sans tube stage. You just have to get beyond the "But I bought a tube DAC to use the tube!" angle and realize that it's SS stage was very well designed.

Rob
chayro
1,801 posts
 
Robbob - I'm glad you took my post in the spirit it was intended. When I was studying music in college, one of my professors, an accomplished pianist, was astounded that I couldn't hear the difference between the sound a white key and a black key from across the room. I later learned that, because of the difference in the mechanics of the keys, there is an audible difference in the way the hammer strikes the strings. Brass players can hear the difference in Bach and Selmer trumpets from across the street and experienced drummers can easily tell the difference between Zildjian and Paiste cymbals. I'm sure that, in your tests, for whatever reasons, the differences might have been minimal. It was just the sweeping nature of the pronouncement that all dacs sound the same or minimally different that caught my interest. I personally have no experience with DACs, but a lot of experience with CD players and I have heard very large differences - mostly in the way they capture the sound around the notes. I have a cheap Oppo and an EAR in my system. The Oppo gets the notes just fine - it's the air, the reverb, the tonality of the instrument that lacks when directly compared to the EAR. In any case, enjoy and have fun. That's what this is supposed to be about, I guess.
sibelius
256 posts
 
Rob - agree with you. I was fully expecting to prefer tube mode, but ss mode just adds more to my system. The added detail and resolution is welcome, especially without the listener fatigue I tend to equate with SS gear. Having tube preamplifier and amp probably helps in that regard. For whatever reason, the tube mode just does not blend in well with my system. As you mentioned, tube mode may work very well in revealing SS system where the goal is to add some warmth at the source. As usual, there are no absolutes and individual system synergy tells the tale.
audioengr
3,282 posts
 
"So Audioengr, other than the renowned MAC Mini, what are some examples of reasonably price yet quality digital sources with low jitter? Any laptops besides the Macbook Pro?"

With the advent of Async USB interfaces, this has nothing to do with the computer. It has to do with the USB interface. This is the digital source I'm talking about. This is what impacts the jitter.

If your computer uses a soundcard, then yes, the clock and interface is in the computer and this is where the jitter matters. But if we are talking about high-performance playback, this is not about internal soundcards. It's about high-performance external USB converters and USB DACs. This is where the low-jitter master clocks are located and this is what determines the jitter.

Mac Mini and Macbook Pro are certainly a good place to start to get something reliable going, and installation of Amarra or PM etc.. will definitely help with SQ, but this is second-order compared to the interface and clocks. The computer is not what determines the jitter level.

People seem to be fixated on the computer hardware and getting the best one for audio with all of the tweaks. It's not about the computer if one uses the optimum interface. I use a stock 2009 Mac Mini myself. Nothing special. I may put a SSD in it eventually.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
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