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The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

I currently use the Rega DAC in a system comprised of Merlin TSM-MXr speakers on Skylan stands. Amp is the Manley Stingray II tube amp. Oppo CD player and Mac Mini feeds the Rega DAC with Pure Music and Cardas cables. My friends system is currently using an ARC integrated with Vanderteen 5a's. He's had the W4S Dac II, EE Minimax Plus, ARC 8 DAC and is currently trying out another borrowed Rega because I won't loan him mine again!

In recent weeks we've tried these DACs in both systems, tweaked and tried various setups. I posted in another thread that the Rega won out against the Minimax Plus and the W4S 2 and that he was partial to the little Centrance.

So here's the thing. The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units! And by "struggle" I mean we use top level recordings and LISTEN LIKE MANIACS again and again. 99% of the time we could not pick these units apart. 100% of the we find that we could be happy with ANY of them! Of course there was a preference for the Rega and the ARC, but boy was it slight! The smallest tweak could shift the balance. A different set of cables, speakers or higher ceiling could easily effect things.

Between the two of us we have something like 65 years of experience with audio. I find it absolutely hilarious when someone posts that a DAC sounds "much" better than another DAC. How is it that we can't hear the same thing, nor can ANY of our friends? We certainly hear a HUGE difference in speakers and amps and very audible ones with cables. But GOOD stand-alone DACs appear to be doing a very good job. MOST people simply list the one or two they've heard in stores as their favorites. If you're looking for a "safe bet" in a DAC you can go with ANY of the models I mentioned above or some of the other fine units out there. Unless someone has your exact system, in the same room and your precise tastes, try not to worry overmuch about DAC A blowing away DAC B.

This was most apparent in trying out the EE Minimax Plus. He tried various tubes and it always sounded best in SS mode! And in that mode it sounded quite like all of the others and about as good as the much less expensive Centrance. So the point of this is to put your efforts and money into speakers and amp/pre. That's 95% of the type of sound you'll get. They determine the character of the system more than anything else.

Cheers!

Rob
robbob
robbob OP
273 posts
 
more detail and resolution, does not intrinsically denote that the sound is better.>>>>

Some recordings are poorly served by the ninth degree of detail and resolution, but when the planets line up I prefer to have a system that gives me everything that was recorded, or as much as possible. I have stated before that the Minimax + is more forgiving and "sweet" at the top end. I liked it, especially on older recordings. But our general feeling was that the tube stage was not doing the rest of the unit any favors, perhaps coloring the unit. I did not hear it with the better tubes, but the owner said it never altered the issues we heard.
In SS mode the Mimimax retained much of the sweetness, gained detail and space around instruments. It really was no contest. It sounded more like live music in SS mode, if less polite on some recordings.
The W4S 2 was (and still is) the detail champ, but then the Rega and Centrance edge it out in midrange presentation. The Rega and Centrance soundstage is really impressive.

Any STILL...with all of these comments above many people would LAUGH at how alike the units are overall. I have to stop listening to music, disengage myself emotionally and listen to the DACs like a mental patient! That can be fun, but in the end...it's the music I'm interested in much more.

Mrtennis, have you removed the tube and tried the SS stage for a while?

Rob
robbob OP
273 posts
 
do you exclude the possibility that a tube dac , with a tube gain stage and a particular nos tube cannot sound very different than a solid state dac ?>>>>

I'd like to address this question, especially given the fact that I heard the Minimax + in two very different systems.
The answer is no. The Mimimax sounded pretty much the same. Extended listening revealed TINY differences in soundstage (weaker in the tube stage), slightly sweeter top end (audible mainly on older harsher recordings) and a bit of thickness in the midrange, especially on vocals. Going the SS mode retained the sweetness and improved other areas.
So the tube added nothing substantial, certainly not in the way my Manley amp does. I've also heard my share of tube CD players now and I'm well convinced that the tubes do little and perhaps even detract from the designs.
My opinion, shared by some and denied by others, is that tubes belong in amps and preamps, but NOT digital source gear. Of course folks will say they heard the greatest tube CDP or DAC, but I believe those units would be even better without the tubes.

Cheers,

Rob
loomisjohnson
1,526 posts
 
audioengr, very interesting post with many valid points about the economics of small high-end manufacturers--you're clearly well informed. to be clear, the "only 5% is in the actual electronics" quote is a statement from the mf guy, not my personal view. i also have no absolutely doubt that, for the reasons you list, you'll get better performance from higher cost, better-designed DACs utilizing better parts. the issue, as ever, is whether the incremental improvement in performance is worth the extra cost. personally, i subscribe to the OP's original premise--that (unlike speakers or preamps) the sonic differences between good lower-cost DACs and good higher-cost DACs can be small and, subjectively, may not be worth the extra investment. others with better ears or greater desire for sonic nirvana will disagree. finally, i'd reiterate that cost is an imperfect measure of performance--hificritic (which is generally regarded as one of the more credible professional reviewers) tested the v-dac and rated it higher than a lot of other, much swankier products.
tubegroover
2,279 posts
 
Well then I guess I'm going to have to try the Rega just for the hell of it all to see how what you describe will play out in my rig, really curious now. Interestingly it isn't the extra detail of the Wyred that jumps out at me over say the Oppo or the Plus, in that area there are more similarities, it is tonality and the natural flow of the music plus greater weight, notably brass and piano and of course the bass resolution and weight as well. Those are the obvious differences so clearly discernable a reason I find comments regarding it sounding "analytical" baffling and wonder if system differences are somehow coming into play. Is there anyone else out there that hears these differences? Is is no subtle thing to my ears. On another note the characteristics in the Plus with every premium tube, without the tube in the circuit does not CHANGE the leanness of the unit although I agree that the top end upper frequencies are quite exquisite which is what I was initially drawn to. It is the overall tonal balance of the design, it is just too lean for my tastes and system based on what I suspect a compromised power supply.
sibelius
256 posts
 
My experience has also been that the impact of a tube in a CD player or DAC is rather minimal. However, I've heard several people state their preference for EE DAC + tube stage after changing out the stock tube. I've ordered a NOS Mullard to replace the EH. Will see how that goes.
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