One comment from a manufacturer of power cords that makes sense to me is that the equipment is not at "the end of the line" but should be looked at from, say, the amp's point of view. The power cord is the very first thing it sees and could be thought of as part of the leads of its AC transformer. I do hear differences 'tween cords, not major ones but very much depending on what was being replaced. In my system, it can be as significant as speaker cables, but the weakest link can hold back the intensity of the changes. In other words, on a CD based system, if one has replaced the power cords for the CD player and amp and not the preamp, that alone can restrict maybe 1/2 of the total potential results, at least in my system. I was surprised! |
Joe_coherent: What simple and relatively inexpensive products are you referring to? Are these from personal experience and/or from a technical website? Please share them with us. I am not against DIY or cheap tweaks at all though I don't think that I will be designing my own electronics any time soon. |
Snowgoblin: The sign remark was merely rhetorical and was in poor taste - I apologize. Your comments remind me of the white paper trolls that exist at "another" audio site, just go there and click on the SET forum and you will see similarities to posts by people who critique products that they have never owned let alone listened to. Have you ever tried an upgraded power cord yourself? Do you own a stereo or HT system? Do you listen to music other than when in a car/elevator or when placed on hold on the phone? Other than your employment with an electric utility what have been your personal experiences on the subject that you have such an interesting opinion on? If you want to hear what I have to say on the subject I then think that is only fair that I know where you are really coming from. I will start my personal experience off with that, yes I have found that cords do make a difference. I have only tried three cords in my system and they have only been used on the source which is a CD player. Each cord sounded different, and one (a Harmonic Technology Pro 11) sounded better to my ears than the others. Different is not always an improvement, but I will point out again that they all had different sounds that even my wife (who knows nothing about any of this) could easily distinguish. Why they sounded different, I do not know as I only understand the basic principals of the (to me) big word theories that I mentioned above and not the exact science of how they all work. I have also not yet tried the more expensive PC's that are in the talk now. I started out with the stock cord, which was loose fitting and had oxidized contacts. I cleaned the contacts and it sounded better but it was still a pain because it needed the use of a support to maintain good contact (the support that I used interfered with the isolation devices that I use on my CD player). Next I used a generic cord off of another piece of equipment (that I cleaned before installing) and it sounded more muted than the CAL stock cord, I did not like this sound as my player is already pretty laid back in its tonal character. I then purchased the Harmonic Tech, cord which sounded completely different and better. It seemed to increase the amount of detail that I was hearing by no less than 20% and my whole system just sounded better and more musical with increased dynamics (it sounded like I had doubled the power output of my amp). Their were also a few Wow's by friends that stopped by that are both musicians but not into this hobby. If I had better equipment or a different source I do not know if the change would have been as drastic as system synergy is always a big part of the equation, but the comments from the people that I see at this site that do own better equipment and that do actually try upgraded cords make me think that there is a difference or improvement to be had as well and that it may be even more more noticeable in their systems than with my midfi equipment. It does make sense in theory though I doubt if I will ever own such equipment to test it myself. The HT cord was $130.00 used FYI. I also have a very bad power supply to deal with in the area (LA) that I live in. It isn't just the building that I live in it is every building/house that I have lived in for the past 23 years within this local grid system, I have had better juice when I have lived outside of this area. Light bulbs have a tendency to last no longer than 30-40 days. The voltage checks fine per an electrician that installed a new breaker box in my apartment so I assume that the amperage must drop to very low levels (even Halogen lights burn out in 3-4 months). Though I do not believe that my inexpensive Monster power conditioner boosts the amperage it does make an improvement in the sound of my system that is very noticeable during the day when playing light spacious music. I would guess from this that my power is not very clean. So what do you have to say? What walk have you walked? |
The last ten feet has become critical for high-end systems because the manufacturers of those systems have provided the consumer with the lowest quality power cords possible. Hence the need to purchase and use 10 gauge or 8 gauge cords in order to supply hungry amps with enough power to drive the bass in our speakers and subwoofers. The last ten feet is critical because municipalities have permitted the use of the lowest quality power outlets in our homes, not hospital grade units. The last ten feet is critical because the internal wiring in our homes is often not copper, or is otherwise inadequate, and so we attempt to overcome this by wiring from the transformer to a dedicated panel just for audio equipment. The last ten feet is critical because there is a measurable, and obvious, improvement in audio reproduction when we apply these changes. What other justification do we need? |
Snobgoblin: Love your handle. I can't say I am qualified to have an opinion on this, since I have never listened to a mains cable. But I have listened to a lot of other things that are supposed to make HUGE differences and just DON'T hear them. I hear small differences but not big ones. And considering the subtlety of difference I have heard in other kinds of wires, I just can't get worked up over $200.00 for a "Mains" cable (sounds better than "power cord"). I do hear some differences a good decent speaker cable and zip cord. But after that it is - in my opinion - all voodoo for the "true believers" in high end - the "it's got to be lots better if you throw a lot of money at it" crowd.) I made a statement questioning the supposedly vast differences in high end audio equipment in a post of my own - "AUDIO AND THE EMPORERS NEW CLOTHES" recently. Suggestions that money doesn't always make it better will always raise the ire of some of the true believers. (I wonder if maybe the money is what they are "true believers" in). Then again, maybe our ears just aren't as good as theirs. But if that is the case I am thank the good Lord that it is not nearly so expensive for me to enjoy good music as some of these others. |
There are several enhancements avaialable that DO improve the power we receive from the utility company. The PS units re-create power. I have a Balanced power isolation transformer that lowers the noise floor by 15db. I have heard for myself the difference power cords make in a system. The differences are not great, but in a revealing system, they do make a difference and can be used to fine tune a system. While I don't believe $2000 power cords are worth the expense, I have found that a well built and shielded power cord can make a difference and can be had for about $140. Those who spend thousands on power cords could use the money elsewhere in the system for larger gains. mike |
Snobblob, Methinks you haven't heard a PS Audio 300, which does re-generate the frequency, BTW. |
Sorry to say the same thing over and over again..in these threads that come up. But quite simply, any and all pieces of wire act an antenna, and there is no bigger antenna in ones home than the yards and yards of AC wire. Any audio component, well designed or not, can be impacted by RF (as well as EMI, etc..) and an audio circuit can work to amplify or pass on RF...or can intermodulate it with the audio signal. It is very true, that getting crazy with high cost AC treatment can become overkill, but RF and other electrical concerns for audio does exist...and as Jeffrt points out very well..it is best for one to try, and do, at whatever level pleases them. |
As a P.S. to the above. It may be that this topic has become as "hot" as it seems to be, because of home theater. The addition of a cable feed into an audio system can cause concerns...most are in the ground and RF/EMI areas. |
Dear Snobgoblin, I guess the bottom line is whether you are looking for an explanation why AC "modification" hardware works or will work in your audio system or are you just trolling to start arguements or are you looking for a reason to make such an investment in your system. WHat some people have accepted is that for many aspects of audio, the experts do not know what electrical measurements correspond to which aspects of the sonic "picture". If you are serious about this audio-wise, why don't perform and experiment on you and your system: peruse many of the comments made through the web regarding any of the AC treatments that mightbe applicable to your system. Then audition that treatment from a local or internet dealer. Most will lend you equipment for 1 week to 30 days. As you can surmise, I have no explanations of my own to offer. I have tried several ("AC treatments") and have kept a few. If, however, you are just trolling, I would rather not waste my time; if you are serious, I can make a few suggestions. Jeff |
Water is an excellent point. Filtering city water is a good idea. |
It is clear that Snobgoblin@yahoo.com is the only one who has so far produced any credible arguments for his position. Those who harass him simply beacuse they have been in my opinion foolish enough to spend money on expensive, needless products should grow-up. I also think the problems of EMI, RF and grounding can be solved either in the design of audio equipemnet or with some very simple and relatively inexpensive products. |
I think you are more correct in your thinking than some of us who have dumped a lot of $$$$ into products. You have to understand that you are going to get violent replys to your post because people have spent a lot of cash on this stuff. There are products that do alieviate some of the problems you mention though. PS Audio thingies come to mind. They rebuild the AC sine wave and supposedly that could change the factors you mention that seem to be beyond the control of cables/connectors. |
Dekay: if kicking my ass was effected through a practical explanation of what exactly the mains level treatments are expected to achieve, I'll even bend over. Reams of white papers are published on conductors and RF interferences and a lot of them are credible. I will agree with someone who says that the EMI from CD player displays mess about with the way the DAC does its job - that's clearly and practically understandable. And I agree that any current thru a conductor causes mechanical and electrical streses. Yes, yes, yes, but the idea that since visually the power comes out of the wall and that one has to mollycoddle it to your amp is overkill. Like using a great faucet connected to city water. keep it coming! |
Sometimes the point is missed. Audio components have power supplies that change the incomming AC into various voltages of DC. The major concerns with the incomming AC are not about it being 59 or 62 cps(HZ for the youngsters). EMI and RF are real concerns for audio components. Most of the efforts of the products dealing with the AC...be it power cords or "conditioner" units..be they inexpensive like the Monster units...or expensive (insert name here), is in dealing with these EMI and RF concerns and (read big AND here) system ground concerns. |
PS: Were you wearing a sign on the back of your pants that read "KICK ME" when you started this thread? Or are you open to intellectual discussion? |
Keep reading white papers and you will figure it out eventually. But whatever you do, don't contaminate the data by actually listening. Also include "the basic table of elements," theories of super conductivity and the effects of electromagnetic fields on sine waves and harmonics as well as shielding techniques in your research. And please do - get back to us. |
And any differences heard between amplifiers are in reality slight differences in sound level. And audio cables can't possibly make a difference.... |
