What's your "diminishing returns" preamp choice?

Both! You can't see the forest through the trees?

These are both in reference to a source with a weak tube output stage, geeeeish!!

And don't even come into play if the source has a good low solid state output impedance.

I can see forests pretty well and also am pretty good at contradictions. Since you did write both statements I accept that you believe both of them but just so you know, if that is true it is also true that you are contradicting yourself.

Perhaps it would help if you defined what is meant by a 'weak tube output stage' (since tubes can easily drive headphones if set up properly; we can do it with our UV-1 preamp) and also what you mean by a 'good low solid state output impedance' as clearly Oppo, Wadia, dcS and others apparently do not qualify. I am assuming you mean 'output impedance', perhaps you have some numbers?

I use an "old and no longer available" Kavent S-33 dual mono balanced preamp which is the same damn thing as a Vincent SA-91 (even says that on a circuit board) but re-branded for reasons I don't remember…it sounds amazing (has an isolated dual mono power supply in it's own 3rd of the case) and will stay in my system until it dies and I can't find anybody to fix it, because it likely has zero re-sale value anyway. I could find a different sounding preamp, or a tube preamp, but a better sounding preamp? Doubtful, but I don't seem to care anyway…I do use a tube power amp with it and somehow this combo does the job (also a SS REL sub driven by the tube amp…is that cheating?)

Whatever Ralph, believe what you want.

I am not an expert like the rest of the folks who are posting but would say that a preamp shopper needs to try a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium.

Hand wired, dual momo, many available replacement tubes, etc., etc. for $3K new.

this is the best my system has sounded - Maggie 3.6 and DWM bass panel, Ric Schultz modified Oppo 105, and W4S amp.

Yea, I know it is my current preamp!

Enjoy the journey!

I've lived in the no preamp is the best preamp and passive worlds. Both provided happiness and long-term satisfaction. I think everyone should experiment, as despite what anyone claims, those options do offer the best solution for many people. Or, many people at that particular junction in time...

Now, playing along that you want an actual preamplifier, my vote for "diminishing returns" preamplifier goes to the AES (Audio Electronic Supply / Cary) AE-3. With the statement that different components perform better or worse depending on the system they go into out of the way, I've seen this little preamp sound flat out amaze people. In fact, as good or better than some that if mentioned here would react like throwing gasoline on a fire. My only reservation is that it doesn't include a phono stage for those who require same.