I have read thousands of comments on upgraded fuses improving the performance of sound. I am very open minded but not sold either way. So, the question I have is....if fuses were so important, than why don't Amplifier companies all install them as OEM equipment? To me, if they are as good as people say, that would provide companies who use them a competitive advantage?
Every High End Audio store I go to in Phoenix have told me it does not make a difference and is a waste of money. For the record, I have fuses purchased at an automotive store for under $10 and I think my sound is awesome. The Company that built my amp tested the Synergistic Fuses and he emphatically said there was no difference.
If I were to try a fuse for fun, given my equipment, what would your recommendation be to try?
" I don't know why I keep doing it. It's like some weird compulsion. Maybe my life doesn't have enough fantasy and fiction. I should probably go back to reading Dune. Honestly, I'm really curious why people believe in things that don't exist. "
Very sad I hope you get the help you need for this.
@geoffkait . kosst does not understand how the ear is a measurement device in and of itself. My thoughts are that kosst is listening to his system, and not the music. I know some people, like him, but most I know ( not all ), have been open to listen. But even those folks who do not bother with " my little experiments ", ever doubt what I hear, as many of them have heard my system, and, that says enough.
Measurable changes? Huh? Spare me! Nobody measures audio feet. Especially not you. But just for grins, how would you measure the difference between carbon fiber feet and ceramic feet? And between ordinary steel springs and cryogenically treated steel springs? The difference between cones points down and cones points up?
Oh yes it most definitely can. When I do tweak something like those things I listen very carefully to better understand what those measurable changes mean in terms of listening. My goal is to develop a good understanding of technical performance as it relates to listening so that I can make educated choices about future modifications and upgrades. You guys like to rag me about my adherence to measurements, but I don't even try to achieve the most impressive measurements. I don't think perfect measurements sound good.
@kosst, when you built your diy amplifier, did you try different " isolation feet ", such as brass or metal cones, or the rubber type, because, there is a huge difference in the sound of an amp heard through the speakers. I am not sure these differences are measurable, but certainly audible. One would have to try it though. Steve McCormack, when he started the Mod Squad, shared with listeners, that there was an audible difference in these isolation things. It was up to " us " listeners to hear it for ourselves. Now, there are so many of these devices, of all designs and materials, at all price levels. Many specific to equipment, speakers and so on. I do not claim these can be scientifically be measured, but I do claim they are audible. Again, one would have to try them. This is my biggest beef with you, that you are so closed minded as not to try, and listen. With so many money back guarantees offered, you have very little to lose, other than some time. You do not rely on your ears. Again, I feel you are at a loss. I will continue pursuing these tweaks ( snake oil to you ), because, I enjoy the experimentation, and make up my own mind, by listening. I do not care if it is measurable through equipment, as, I am not an engineer, but I was a musician ( vocalist actually ), and have trained my ears to many things. I want to point out, one does not need to be a musician to hear much of this. Two pre amps ( amps, cd players, d/a converters, etc.) can measure quite closely, but sound quite different. This is the world of high end audio.
I completely agree with you, that all that stuff makes a difference. Am I to assume, that all of this, can be measured with equipment, because the ears can pick up on it as well.
@mrdecibel Not so much. I believe in doing things that actually make a difference. Stuff like better thermal coupling of outputs to their sinks, bias adjustments, wire routing and architecture, and circuit balance. That's stuff that actually makes a difference.
The fact that kosst is unable and unwilling to " try " a few of these simple tests, using his ears, says to me, that he will never really enjoy his music system, because, he is leaving so much on the table. He is disturbed, as he cannot let this go, thinking he will change any of us. I suggested a simple fuse tweak, that all of my musically inclined family and friends can hear ( on their systems as well as mine ), but he carried on about the fuse getting stuck in the holder. I can go on, but the fact that he needs proof, it is in the listening, and he is unwilling to try. He probably could not hear these differences anyway, and he must be afraid of that outcome. Come on kosst, let's have some more, because, you cannot let this go, and I am having fun, even though you are annoying.
I’m pretty sure it’s just a bad case of audio nervosa. You can get it from obsessive compulsive behaviors such as participation in the Blowtorch thread on DIY a little bit too much. 😡 Take two placebos and see me in the morning.
Not to cut straws but there is a difference between calling someone a liar and not believing what people say they hear. Nobody can hear what another does exactly the same way so why take offense at that? OR if they do not believe in fuses? If one is sure one does, who cares what others think or say?
Not sure what provoked all the personal insults and attacks, but I'm not dealing with it.
Maybe starting off by calling people liars would be good place to start looking. Pontificating from your high horse under the delusion that anyone here looks up to you could be another. Just saying.
Look, it’s really the same thing as the Dunking Chair. The Dunking Chair was used to find out if the suspected witch really was a witch. 🧙🏻♀️If she died in the Dunking Chair she couldn’t have been a real witch, since a real witch would have been able to save herself. Of course nobody survived the Dunking Chair. There was a hitch. Here we have naysayers and pseudo skeptics who either can’t hear differences between fuses or won’t try, claiming the whole thing’s a fraud. Basically claiming it’s witchcraft. This is why the naysayers’ argument comes down to superstition, just like the witch hunters of Salem, Mass.
kosst_amogan I’ve made this point before, but I’ll make it again. Anything that can be heard can be measured. I don’t understand why some of you think that there are some characteristics in audio that don’t have a measurement signature, but that isn’t the case. You people attribute qualities to a fuse that most definitely would reveal themselves through a spectrum analyzer. But they don’t. One can only conclude that’s because it makes no difference at all.
>>>>>Excellent example of a Strawman Argument. I.e., logical fallacy. Most who try them hear them. Capish? Actually, fuses DO reveal themselves through a spectrum analyzer. You yourself claim anything that can be heard can be measured. Hel-loo! Same for cables. Fuse and cable directionality shows up on a spectrum analyzer, too. You’re grasping at straws.
pbnaudio Perhaps because we want the protection a properly designed and manufactured fuse provides, you know the ones by Bussman or Littlefuse (sic) for an example.
>>>>>Wow! Another manufacturer checks in.
“We don’t need any of your stinking tweaks!”
“We want customers to hear the pure sound of our products.”
“We don’t fall for snake oil. Only solid engineering here.”
😛
Idle question: Why not simply improve a “properly designed and manufactured fuse?” Hel-loo!
Not sure what provoked all the personal insults and attacks, but I'm not dealing with it.
I've made this point before, but I'll make it again. Anything that can be heard can be measured. I don't understand why some of you think that there are some characteristics in audio that don't have a measurement signature, but that isn't the case. You people attribute qualities to a fuse that most definitely would reveal themselves through a spectrum analyzer. But they don't. One can only conclude that's because it makes no difference at all.
"
I don't know why I keep doing it. It's like some weird compulsion. Maybe my life doesn't have enough fantasy and fiction. "
@kosst_amojan this is a medical condition please ask your parents for help compulsive behaviors can really ruin your life there is no need to suffer alone there are many ways you can be helped with this. Since you understand that you have these compulsions you have already made a giant step towards a resolution good luck too you!
@kosst....What we think we hear ? Did you really make that statement ? Stop embarrassing yourself. Go back to your measurements. Your Focals did not wind up in your listening room entirely with the use of measurements, as you must have listened to them, with a set of ears, I assume. But, you know what they say, when you assume ? Then again, you needed your mom's approval. So, I guess that says, all that needs to be said.
I don't know why I keep doing it. It's like some weird compulsion. Maybe my life doesn't have enough fantasy and fiction. I should probably go back to reading Dune. Honestly, I'm really curious why people believe in things that don't exist.
I
just don't like liars. And that's pretty much what I see here ... That's psychiatric ... Some not only buy the lie, they run with it and expand
on it regardless of the truth to the contrary. ... This is like debating
flat earthers. I'm wondering how many of you have magnets on your fuel
lines to polarize the gas molecules.
Given your opinion of this forum, why do you continue to participate?
Now please continue with your regularly scheduled ranting
Wow! I think I see what the problem is. Some people are confusing real skepticism, you know the spirit of curiosity and investigation - the backbone of all scientific endeavor - with simply being overly suspicious or even superstitious. I suspect these same people are afraid that cameras can take their souls. 👻 just remember, the only thing you have to fear is fear itself. 😳
I just don't like liars. And that's pretty much what I see here. How real something sounds isn't a question of opinion. It's a matter of measurable fact. How closely does the reproduced wave form resemble the original? Putting footers under your pre-amp or fancy fuses in it doesn't change that. It only changes what you think you hear. That's not scientific. That's psychiatric. If all that matters is what you think you hear in your head, why not try a Sanyo clock radio and a pile of mushrooms? It's much cheaper than HiFi and you're in a much better position to will your mind into hearing anything you want. Faith based tweaks like fuses and magic rocks only work when the listener has unwavering faith in them. Most of us are too skeptical to buy any old lie told to us. Some not only buy the lie, they run with it and expand on it regardless of the truth to the contrary. It reminds me of watching the 9/11 conspiracy theorists evolve their story. This is like debating flat earthers. I'm wondering how many of you have magnets on your fuel lines to polarize the gas molecules.
Now please continue with your regularly scheduled ranting.
”Does all of that sound at least somewhat implausible, even though Ralph’s claims are based on actual experiments? It would not be unreasonable to think so, IMO. However, I feel safe in saying that to most of those having an extensive background in electronic design (such as myself) the notion that a fuse would have **inherent** directional characteristics to an audibly significant degree is substantially MORE implausible.”
>>>>>I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears that having a background in electronic design like Ralph and Al actually does not allow them to make informed judgements regarding fuse directionality. You know, in light of the fact that they ARE directional. It appears they are in denial. Oh, well. Whereas my background in physics and materials science does allow ME to make such judgments. We’ve already debunked the infamous fuse holder pseudo argument, gents. Let’s move this thing along, shall we?
Mapman They are also not complicated devices and as difficult to understand as some vendors make them. Its reasonable to expect that some portion of the discussion about them is just noise but hey only one way to find out if one actually cares. Personally, I’d focus on making sure my fuse is good quality and in good working order and look pretty much anywhere else (except Machina Dynamica for example) for things that will make clear significant differences in sound quality.
>>>>>I’m giving serious consideration to promoting you to associate shill as you demonstrate that very special skill I’m looking for - pretending to loathe and mock Machina Dynamica yet giving it a shout out at every opportunity. But not too much, otherwise folks will catch onto the scam. 😛 Keep up the good work.
“It’s too late for old folks like me to change.” - Mapman
Vendors don’t make fuses difficult to understand. You do, grasshopper. Look within.
I think it's utterly worth it to invest in extremely high quality and safely designed products with companies with an unimpeachable reputation as leaders in their field. That's why I'll spend the 2 bucks on Littelfuse products…I can hear the difference as without them in my gear, there's just no sound at all.
One last comment I will repeat that I think I made eons ago early on in teh red fuse thread is taht I ahve also seen cases where fuses only blow partially ie the filament is partially but not totally melted. More prevalent with slo blo fuses. Obviously this is just another case where all fuses are not created equal however replacement with any good quality new fuse is all that is needed to rectify.
So yes fuses can be delicate little beasts and do matter but like most of high end audio the returns on more expensive products are diminishing at best and nill in some cases at worst.
They are also not complicated devices and as difficult to understand as some vendors make them. Its reasonable to expect that some portion of the discussion about them is just noise but hey only one way to find out if one actually cares. Personally, I’d focus on making sure my fuse is good quality and in good working order and look pretty much anywhere else (except Machina Dynamica for example) for things that will make clear significant differences in sound quality.
But hey some people like to go where no man has gone before. The question then becomes how much of their tales is fact versus fiction.
Do you think that that tiny bit of difference remains the same once it's been rectified, modified, deep fried and otherwise? Seems to me that that small and insignificant difference cited plays a larger role once it goes through all the various permutations before it comes out.
Jitter, no matter how small, distorts more and more as it goes along as does any kind of distortion. It's funny how some are now admitting that there is a difference but it just simply can't explain why the sound changes yet that very same criteria most certainly applies to everything else. You can't have it both ways.
I have 100% verifiable proof that fuses are directional and need to be installed in matched pairs. Simply stick one fuse in one ear and listen and then place another matching fuse in the other ear! I guarantee you that it will sound different even with just one fuse and that ONLY two matched fuses will produced a balanced even soundfield. I guarantee it!
Geoff and his acolytes will be delighted with the scientific demonstration of the FACT that fuses make an audible difference. Furthermore, the fact that fuses need to be installed in MATCHED pairs means more sales and more profit.
My main criticisms of Magic Fuse performance are the claims of what the fuse can accomplish. Measurable directionality only means that possibly current flows a TINY BIT better in one of the directions and that phenomena is rendered meaningless in an alternating current. I get that better contact between the fuse and holder is a good thing, but it's when the current gets to the rest of the electronic bits, rectified, modified, deep fried and otherwise, the benefits of whatever inexplicable and imagined bees wax/voltage bombardment/psuedo quantum whammy/graphene coating/ or any other sales based baloney is hard to swallow, although swallow it Fusers do…all day…I tested the bejeezus out of a pile of SR fuses (embarrassingly, but had to in order to ethically allow myself to continue questioning this crap) and "proved" if only to myself that I can't swallow this particular stream of fuse goo. Others enjoy it, feel it makes cellos sound better, but until somebody explains what's what with the design goals of Special fuses I'm not swallowing any of it.
On a speaker thread, someone recently spent $1300. on a pair of speaker isolation products, claiming it took his system to an extremely higher level of musical satisfaction. I can believe it. It is still amazing to me, that people like kosst ( a troll imo ), requires scientific facts to back anything up. A long time ago, Julian Hirsch, compared, by electrical measurements, an inexpensive japanese receiver to a relatively expensive amplifier, at that time, showing how close the two products were. I do not recall if he " listened " to these two products, but I do believe he made the comment, that if they measure the same, they must sound the same. Some people need to wake up, give things a try ( a little fuse test ), and trust their ears. If they are NOT WILLING TO TRY AND LISTEN, how can they make a comment at all ?
Yep. That’s it in a nutshell. Cheers! Too much time spent talking about fuses. People will think and do what they will and are not likely to change, especially the older folks like me.
Frankly, and I certainly have no animosity towards anyone, nor intend any disrespect, but I disregard with prejudice what ANY pseudo skeptic, naysayer or Crusader Rabbit presents as evidence or proof for any controversial tweak, including fuses, fuse directionality, wire directionality, etc. Who cares? Anybody can dream up some bizarre case they think will turn the tide. It’s actually not (rpt not) up for debate. Case closed. Like the mind of Crusader Rabbit. 🐇
The whole idea that rotating the fuse improves the sound, and is therefore the real reason audiophiles hear improvements when flipping fuses, is preposterous on its face, anyway. Because the odds are 50-50 that the sound would be *degraded* by rotating the fuse. Besides, if someone can’t hear the difference in fuses or in fuse direction, I certainly don’t believe they can hear fuse rotation. It doesn’t make sense. Judge Judy says if it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. Furthermore, we already know that fuses measure according with the direction they are oriented in. Case closed. If you can’t hear that’s your problem. Better get it checked out.
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