klipsch speakers,be honest

Jax,
The fatigue for me is the mid to top end of things. The horns seem to be in my face too much. The bass in the Fortes are lower than the Chorus, even though the Chorus runs a 15 inch woofer. The Chorus-I rolls off around 45 Hz(the Fortes go down to 32Hz). Actually the bass on the Chorus isn't that "big" unless their backs are against the wall & even then not large by any means.

Chorus I specs

I have played around with speaker placement & again this helped, but didn't eliminate the in your face aspect ("shouting" at me?) The room is fairly dead I think as it's carpeted and has too much (soon to go) over-stuffed furniture in it. I haven't done any room treatments yet as I'm just researching such things now. 3/4's of one wall is open above a half-wall to the kitchen. For comparison's sake...the Chorus were terrific on a very narrow slice of music styles (strings/harp/acoustics & female vocals) ..your El Cant De La Sibil La sounds wonderful...huge dynamics..however as soon as I switch to jazz..well..the speakers get shut down. Compare this to the Snells and, while the sound has a different 'feel' to it, all types of music sound very good & non-fatiguing. Soundstage & imaging has definitely improved..a lot...the speakers completely disappear. Bass is much better. Cymballs are smooth & shimmer...not 'loud' (as they were with the Chorus, even at lower volumes). All this with the Snells in the same room, basically the same position as the Chorus were (~5 feet off the back wall & ~3 feet off the side walls), and my listening position in the same place....though I've moved things around to sort of come back to where I started.

I picked up the Snell E-IV's as I got a good price on them & they were local. A friend has the CV Snells & they're very easy to listen to while sounding very good. With the new equipment I 'needed' something to listen to so I took a flyer on the E IV's. The Snells are not the end of the road by any means, but at least I have a nice-sounding and listenable system until I figure out what's next.

I may be looking for a different house before long. I figured I keep the Chorus as one never knows what type of room I'll get into & how they will sound. Naturally, if I can work through any well-found tweaks on them in the mean time, so much the better.

Fishboat - sounds like the Snell's are a better match overall for your system/room as it stands now. I don't have any experience with Snells, so can't comment beyond that as far as comparisons go. I would've thought the Chorus put out more bass than the Forte's from their larger size. Don't they also have the passive woofer firing to the rear (as do the Fortes)? The Fortes would not be my choice for the music I love most (acoustic, vocals, strings, small-scale classical arrangements). The larger Klipsch speakers that Paul designed have a more 'refined' sound to my ear, which comes out mostly in the midrange. The newer designs using the Tractrix horn and large, forward-firing woofers are more of a rockin' out speaker IMO, and I've moved on from that kind of music to where it is only a very small portion of what I enjoy. I believe their current designs use similar architecture, the few of those I've heard have not impressed me at all. Again, no direct experience with the Chorus to share. Perhaps Sean can be of some help here (?).

Marco

My experiences with anything but the "vintage" Klipsch models is less than enthusiastic and even the "vintage" models need a LOT of help in my opinion.

The main things that the "vintage" models have going for them is that they are very simple designs that utilize sealed cabinets, which are almost "fool proof" in terms of working with. The newer models utilize lower grade parts in the crossovers and you have to deal with the various bass alignments used in a vented design.

As a side note, the older models weren't so much "bright" as they were "ringy" due to the metal horns resonating like mad. The newer models ARE "bright" and the plastic horn bodies tend to have a very specific albeit "forward" upper midrange sound to them. On top of that, the passive radiators are tuned to produce a large peak in the bass, which reduces transient response and definition. In effect, you end up with a speaker that is bloated on the bottom, thick in the warmth region, forward in the mids and piercing in the treble. In effect, you ended up with a Klipsch speaker that sounded more like a Cerwin-Vega. Both are LOUDspeakers that can rock & roll, but lack any type of finesse and refinement. When driven hard, these newer speakers just sound flat out "abrasive" to me. How do you fix this? It's called a LOT of work.

Probably the easiest things to do that are completely reversible would be to buy a bag or two of polyester fiberfil at your local Wal-Mart ( $2 per bag ) and play with the amount of stuffing in each cabinet. By varying the density of stuffing within the cabinet, you can fine tune the bass response to your liking. Just make sure that any stuffing that you add to the box does NOT interfere with the movement of any of the drivers.

The next thing to do would be to cover the baffle area surrounding the horns with felt. You can pick up enough felt and some "temporary double sided hem tape" at your local fabric shop for about $10. Not only will this help to tame the peaky response of the upper mids and treble region, imaging should improve. You might end up losing a bit of the "snap" or "jump factor" on horns and / or cymbals, so experiment with how much felt you use.

Personally, i would probably felt the entire baffle on these myself, but others may find this to sound TOO subdued. I know that at least one guy posted over on AA that Heresy's as modified as i suggested ended up sounding "dark" to him. Then again, he was used to years and years worth of "ringing" in his system and going to a more natural, less resonant presentation may have sounded "flat & dull" to him. That's why i said start with the simple and easily reversible stuff for now and see how you like the initial results.

As to the ALK crossovers, i've never used them but i have seen them. They make use of Solen cap's, which are not bad so long as you keep the leads as short as possible and damp them where they enter the body of the cap. Something along the lines of "blu-tak" or "fun-tak" can work wonders here. If you don't do this, the caps will ring and sound bright. The cap bodies themselves are so lightweight that the solid core metal leads become microphonic, causing the cap body to resonate. By damping the leads where they enter the body of the cap, you damp & decouple any ringing that the lead picks up before it can excite the body of the cap. If you doubt this, hold a Solen ( or other similar cap ) at he far end of one lead with your fingertips and "flick" the other lead with your finger. You won't believe how much and how long the cap vibrates once you "flick" the leg. Nor will you believe how loud the leg rings. In this respect, the original Klipsch's used paper in oil caps, which are somewhat self-damping to begin with. In this respect, the stock caps aren't bad in the older models and may sound more natural than newer caps that are poorly implimented.

The ALK's also make use of Solen Litz wound coils which are of a stranded design. Personally, i think that stranded wire is typically a step backwards in performance from a well chosen solid wire or a foil conductor. This is strictly a matter of personal preference though and some would debate the viability and cost effectiveness of other approaches.

As a side note, Audio Xpress had a recent article about the ElectroVoice T35 tweeters as used in the vintage Klipsch models. In this article, they show graphs and response curves of this tweeter, demonstrating how limited in bandwidth it really was and that it had a noticeable peak at appr 11 - 12 KHz falling off rapidly above that.

The author of the article ended up replacing his T35's as found in his K-Horns with some JBL's and the differences were like night and day according to what was published. I would not doubt that Marco's Fane swap provided much the same type of results. Personally, I'm using some $6 tweeters that are easily superior to the EV's in every way, shape and form. Only problem is, these $6 tweeters are now discontinued :( Sean
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PS... You guys aren't helping me any. I'm trying to stay off of the forums and get some other things done!!!

Ah, yes, Sean's post (thanks Sean) reminded me of the one modification I did leave out: The outside of my metal horn is covered in dampening material purchased at PartsExpress. This is the stuff they use to dampen the inside of the doors of automobiles. Dynamat is the more expensive version of a the similar stuff. Works wonders on the 'ringing' horn syndrome he Sean mentions.

There is a forum section over at Klipsch.com where much of this stuff is discussed ad nauseum. A source of some good information (as well as misinformation just as any Internet source) if you care to sift through the archives. There is another tweeter made by a Spanish manufacturer that has very close curves and sensitivity to the stock EV T35/Klipsch K77. Many folks over there have been delighted with this as a drop-in replacement. Can't recall the brand, but a quick search over there oughta find it. I believe AlK also endorses this particular tweater, and certainly the potential for improvement, in posts on that site.

Of course little of this applies to your Chorus speakers since they do not use the same tweeter and the tractrix horns are plastic. I'd have to agree about sealing the cabinets better. I did that on my Heresy's by replacing the back with thicker MDF and adding sealent around the perimiter of all the drivers. It made an audible improvement in the bass response and tightness. I think in your case the cabinet only has the driver openings to improve the seal. You can purchase a caulking material to seal around the drivers better as an option to felt. Again, PartsExpress, or any speaker-building supply should have this stuff and it is cheap.

Sean, thanks for the tip on dampening the Solens. I'll give that a try, although I am delighted with the sound of my speakers right now. The only place I'd like to improve them is in the bass region. I did seal up the box at the bottom better, and around the bass driver. I've been toying with the idea of building a forward-firing bass cabinet and creating an arrangement more like the Oris and Avantegarde. Still, since I'm not really a bass freak it may be a long time before I do this. It is certainly not a glaring fault.

Fishboat- in addition to Sean's good advice, search the forums over at Klipsch to see if you can come up with more Chorus-specific advice.

Marco

Marco: Take the top off of your La Scala's, pull the horns & crossovers and then open up the woofer chamber. In the long run, you're going to leave this open and seal the rear of the horn chamber that used to be open. You may have to do some fabrication in terms of a partial plate where the original woofer hatch was, but this drastically increases the bass chamber volume. That tiny bass chamber is what raises the resonant frequency of the driver, limiting bass extension.

Once all that is done, fill what is now the shared bass / horn chamber with fiberglass. This will also increase apparent box volume AND damp the vibration of the horn bodies even further. Altering the amount and type of fiberglass used will change the Q of the system, but 2 lbs per cubic foot is typically a good place to start with any sealed and stuffed design. Don't forget to take into account the internal volume lost from the horn bodies and crossover boards when trying to factor the actual weight to use.

You might find that you like slightly less than 2 lbs per cubic foot, which is easy to deal with. I think that i ended up with about 1.7 lbs per cubic foot or so when all was said and done. At 2 lbs, the chamber is absolutely crammed full to the point of over-flowing. At 1.7 lbs, it is still VERY full, but not billowing out quite as badly.

The end result is that you lower the resonance of the system by appr 12 - 15 Hz, which is quite a bit. The Q is lowered from appr .85 down to appr .57 or so, which is a phenomenal gain. This reduces the peak at resonance for more control AND at the same time, improves transient response. The peak at impedance is also reduced, increasing power transfer from the amp to the woofer where it needs it the most. In many other attempts to increase bass extension via increasing the Q, "speed", "control" and "definition" are sacrificed, but not with this approach. Low Q with a good design is a "win, win, win" situation.

Due to the lower peak at resonance via the reduced Q, the bass is also now more extended. That is, you can either get greater apparent bass with less control ( like a vented design or the stock Klipsch high Q design ) or more control and greater extension ( like a "good" low Q sealed design ). We are opting for the latter, which is what i've always promoted in previous posts. This ends up giving us appr +4 to +5 dB's at 30 Hz compared to the stock La Scala.

While reducing the resonant frequency by 12 - 15 Hz definitely improves bass extension, that added +4.5 dB's REALLY improves bass solidity and "thunder". We've now got REAL deep bass without near as much "false" upper bass and the "snap" of the bass has been improved.

To sum things up, you end up with a completely different speaker that is far superior in every respect. Greater bass extension, improved transient response and more bass "weight" without introducing gobs more distortion or losing impact or definition. The really cool thing about this is that everything is 100% reversible with no signs of external cosmetic modifications if done properly.

Outside of doing this and the basic horn damping / crossover mods / wiring changes / removal of the screens within the horn throats, one has to get into doing MAJOR bass horn modifications to go to the next level of performance.

It is my opinion that it is easier to build new cabinets from scratch than it is to try and modify the existing bass horn for improved performance. While doing that, one could factor in front mounted horns for reduced diffraction as compared to the factory rear mounted design. They could also build a larger ( taller ) low frequency section, improving the extension due to having a larger horn mouth without eating up more cubic floor space. Radiusing the bends inside the bass horns is a huge benefit, minimizing standing waves ( muddy lower midrange / upper bass ) even further.

Some of the muddiness in the lower mid / upper bass can be reduced in the stock design by bracing the outer cabinet walls to the "V" of the bass chamber, but this may introduce introduce non-reversible cosmetic changes to the cabinet. If done tastefully though, you can't tell that the braces aren't stock and the sonic benefits far outweigh the small cosmetic drawbacks. One can temporarily do something like this by carefully wedging a form fitting piece of wood between the "V" and the outer walls without permanently attaching it. The use of felt between the contacting areas will minimize the potential for any scratches to take place. To be honest here, and that's what this thread is about, most of the vintage Klipsch cabinets are poorly built and designed from a performance standpoint. From a mass production standpoint, they are engineering marvels. Sean
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PS.... Some of the facts & figures quoted are strictly ballpark. Due to the tolerances on the mass produced drivers that Klipsch used, each woofer will respond just a hair differently than others. Following the basic guidelines as listed above though will DEFINITELY improve the performance of the system on the whole, regardless of the absolute accuracy of any individual spec's quoted.

PPS...Much of what i learned about Klipsch's came from personal experimentation. Another great source that really helped me, on La Scala's in particular, is Dennis Kleitsch. You can find some of his posts at AA in the "high efficiency" Asylum and at the Klipsch forums under the name of djk ( all small letters if doing a search by author ). Dennis is truly a wizard when working with these and other horn loaded speakers.