Decision between Zu Definition OR VS DB99


Trying to decided between these two spectacular speakers. I have not listen to either of them and will not get a opportunity to do so. Hence asking for suggestion/opinions regarding these spks. My room size is 22 by 13 and basically listen to all types of music from classical to rock at quite loud volumes. The spks will be driven via Audio Aero Capitol power amp and cdp.
Thanks
nakolawala
I haven't heard the VS DB99s. And specs seem sketchy. I own Zu Druids and Zu Definitions in two different systems, placed in two different rooms, but I have directly compared both Druids and Definitions in the same rooms, using each system and moving the required speakers around. So I can answer some of the matrix of questions here.

A little preamble: The DB99 is described as a 3-way, implying that it uses passive crossover elements in the signal path to all the drivers. If this is true, it would likely be the primary weakness compared to the Definition. Until I got Druids and then Definitions, I had not ever heard a full-range-driver-based speaker that I could also describe as being tonally accurate or natural. But once you get the combination of full-range driver + tonal accuracy, the presence of a passive crossover -- even in speakers I formerly enjoyed -- is very hard to accept ever again. A crossover just asserts itself, squeezing life out of the music and disintegrating the holistic sound you've now become accustomed to. It's that holistic difference that SET adherents cite over push-pull amps, made large. Obvious. Anyone can hear it. We've all been living with this limitation for eons and now we don't have to. The holism and tone of the Zu designs is the first reason to make the effort to consider them.

Certainly the VS and the Zu Def are evenly matched as marketed items, costing close to the same, having pretty much the same design objectives, and consuming very similar footprints.

How does one describe a Zu speaker to someone who hasn't heard one before? It's a fully integrated, holistic sound. As a former Quad ESL owner, Druids most remind me of what was compelling about Quads -- intimacy, quick & uniform transient behavior, excellent octave-to-octave balance, beautiful tonal accuracy. But they add true dynamics and high sustained SPLs on very little power. You have huge latitude for amplifier preferences, everything from 2 watt 45s to McIntosh solid state monster monoblocks. No worries.

As usual, someone speculates that the Zu FRD must beam problemmatically. This is not a practical issue. The 10.5" FRD rolls off naturally at 12kHz and its directionality is much less constricted than a Quad ESL-57, and somewhat more than, say, an Anthony Gallo or a Spendor S3/5. I have one system on the short wall of an oblong room and the other system on the long wall of a less oblong room. I have absolutely zero seating positions where I cannot maintain a dimensional soundstage with convincing frequency response. And the swet spot is a good 3 bodies wide for Druids and more for Definitions.

The Definition is specifically designed to reduce floor and ceiling effects and improve horizontal disperson over the Druid, partly as a nod to mixed-use (video HT / serious music) systems. The MTM array on front, while not strictly a D'Appolito configuration by the placement math, acoustically controls the upper mid and treble response of both the FRD and the super-tweeter. Here, in any practical domestic room I can imagine, beaming is simply not in evidence and dispersion is both quite unlumpy and controlled for excellent practical use. The Definition is easy to set up and pretty much a drop-in for an existing system, from which point you may wish to re-optimize based on your inevitably new satisfaction criteria.

Again, absence of crossover is a commanding, compelling attribute. As I've written before, it turns out that when you eliminate crossovers in the meat of the music range, and retain phase linearity, lots of affordable sources are perfectly fine. I think a lot of what audiophiles have been wrestling with in endless upgrades has been traceable to the "pinhole" effects of crossovers being assigned to dissatisfaction elsewhere in the system. My point is, if you get any Zu speaker and are the type of person to put 40% of your system funds into your disc player or TT/TA/Cart, you will want to stop that right now and realize that the fulcrum of fidelity in your system has just moved to the power amp. With Zu speakers in place, your power amp selection will now have the largest effect on your system other than moving further up the Zu line or finding something else to exceed them.

As for playing loud, any Zu speaker is up to the task of caving your skull in, if you ask it to. Even Tones. Druids can put you awash in cell-squashing SPLs in normal rooms, on a relative handful of watts. Don't underestimate what one Zu FRD can load a room with. The Griewe model in the tower gives you quick, tuneful, articulate and full bass down to a little below 40Hz before it smoothly rolls off. The Druid is deceptively simple, but compared to most speakers, scales just fine.

One look at Definitions and you expect them to scale. They do. That 16Hz - 40Hz range missing from the Druids? There are 4 ten-inch light-paper-cone drivers fed by an in-built amp to take care of that. The lower range is present and accounted for as claimed, but unlike the vast majority of subwoofers and other deep-bass speakers on the market, this array on the back of each Def does more than indistinctly rumble and slop around. It retains the speed and articulation that are hallmarks of the main drivers. The dual FRDs perhaps sacrifice some of the Druid's ultimate focus and single-driver intimacy, but they burst with startling realism, projecting sound into the room multidimensionally and laying out a soundstage as captured in the recording. They do, in my experience, require at least 9' - 10' of listening distance for the soundfield to fully integrate in your mind, compared to the Druids which can be used relatively near-field. Of the recording is up to it, you will feel the power of a full symphony orchestra in your skeleton. The SACD of DSOM will be clean and clear right up to the dynamic limits of your room. Definitions live up to their name, being stellar in their ability to keep simultaneous sounds and musical events distinct as density, intensity and SPLs rise.

In Zu speakers you can find both truth and beauty. As even Zu admits, the Druid is less perfect than the Definition, which is why there's a Definition. The Druid is discernibly less linear as you'd expect being less than 1/3 the cost of the Definition, but has superior small-scale intimacy. It is a seductive, beguiling speaker and a true revelation the first time you experience it. I'll suggest further that in your home is the very best way to have your first Druid or Zu experience. The retains compelling if not-quite-Druid intimacy, and improves everything else across the board. These are not euphonically colored speakers. Definitions in particular are ruthlessly revealing of any hash, grain, or general unpleasantness elsewhere in a system. Get the power amps right for your purposes and everything else is pretty easy to sort out. Pianos will sound correct. vocals will include the person instead of being disembodied. Dynamics and transient uniformity will be responsive to the music and you will hear an aliveness to performances that is seldom achievable in home audio.

Certainly, there are many people who revere the VS DB99, citing some of the same attributes. Different people are sensitive to different properties in our highly imperfect devices for sound reproduction. What I can see about the VS online does not give me confidence it can achieve the holistic sound of Zu that is vital to me, but I'd have to know more and hear them to be sure. Here's what we do know: with a Zu speaker today, your amp signal goes to the driver(s) producing the 40Hz - 12kHz range without passing through a crossover network. No RC. That FRD rolls off naturally on both ends, and the supertweet rolls in on a simple filter. Do you hear the holistic sonic character made possible by that, without giving up real highs and bass? If so, you're likely to prefer Zu. If not, your preference may drive a different outcome to your decision.

Since owning Zu speakers, I've had more moments of being startled by a moment of "live" sound, than in all the previous 30 years I've been buying audiophile-grade gear.

Phil
Phil,
You write very well and your observations support my experience. It seems to me inevitable that Zu will insinuate themselves into a great many homes over time but I wonder why the progress is so slow. As soon as I learned about this Druid speaker I was hellbent to see and hear them. The inherent superiority seemed obvious to me. All I needed was to determine if it was indeed as clearly superior as the design suggested. So I ventured up to Ogden, Utah and visited the Zu lab. My answer came upon me instantaneously when Adam fired them up.
I urge everyone out there to try a pair on their trial basis.
They tell me that only one pair has been returned out of several hundred. So it seems likely your biggest problem will be finding someone to take your crossovers off your hands. If you hurry, you might still find someone who doesn't know about Zu.

And, Phil, your earlier writings played a big part in my decision to visit Zu. Thanks.
Thank you MJ, and you're welcome too. As is the case with many good ideas that come from small companies, lack of awareness limits the rate at which Zu finds its rightful place in the market. The company is small, and clearly has very limited funds for promotion. Talking to Sean and Adam, I get the impression that aside from supporting its workers, whatever money Zu makes gets quickly ploughed back into the business. It's hard to raise money for hifi manufacturing from a standing start so these guys bootstrapped the company and are exporters. I am sure there's very little left for marketing. Clearly 2005 has been a breakthrough year for Zu, with exposure in 6moons.com especially helping to energize interest in the company and products. They've been building interest in Asia faster than here on product quality and word-of-mouth, fueled by the high-purity school of SET-oriented Asian audio.

As you can see from some reactions here and elsewhere online, Zu's speakers and its FRD are disruptive to a lot of accepted practice and perception in hifi. The last hifi product I've seen elicit so many "it can't work" pronouncements from people who never got within a hundred miles of the actual device was David Gammon's Vestigal Tonearm at Transcriptors in the 1970s. It's partly because of that very low-mass, low-wear arm that I have vinyl discs today that are eminently playable 30 - 40 years after purchase. With a Denon moving coil, too. But of course, it couldn't work with anything other than a high-compliance Shure V15 or ADC XLM, everyone who never heard one said. That reminds me...I think I'll go get mine from my gear closet and put it back on my turntable. Then I'll have two "it can't work" items in my Druids system; one at each end!

I didn't know it at the time I bought my Definitions in March, but they were only beginning to be shipped into the market. The Druid has had more time to motivate the market. The depth and velocity of word-of-mouth awareness of Zu is beginning to amount to something. I've seen this before in hifi, companies beginning small and getting sales traction before they could promote or find mass distribution: Advent, about 1969. The original early '70s Mark Levinson. Nakamichi around 1972/3. Ariston, Linn & Rega around 1974-78. Dahlquist, Koetsu, Nagra, Infinity. Apogee in the '80s. The SET revival making its way from Japan to Europe and the US without mainstream press support and before the WWW. More recently 47 Labs, Red Wine Audio, Omega, Cain & Cain and Zu.

All of these companies and movements made a lasting conceptual contribution to the industry and forced people to question accepting some of their thinking about what makes good hifi. But Zu speakers in particular seem to polarize people before they hear them. It looks like a 2-way but it's not quite. It uses a full range driver but it's not a "referenceable" Lowther, Fostex or something else already in the club. It's a 101db/w/m speaker that can handle several hundred watts of amplification. It's supposed to beam, honk, shout, be less efficient than rated, and have no bass whatsoever, but sadly for skeptics it fails to honor any of those obligations.

Phil
I haven't heard the VS DB99s. And specs seem sketchy.

Ok?

A little preamble: The DB99 is described as a 3-way, implying that it uses passive crossover elements in the signal path to all the drivers. If this is true, it would likely be the primary weakness compared to the Definition.

Based on your first quote that's nothing more then an assumption which holds no merit in the real world. I don't care what speakers you like or don't like, but don't say you don't like something you've never listened to - that just screams narrow mindedness.

What I can see about the VS online does not give me confidence it can achieve the holistic sound of Zu that is vital to me, but I'd have to know more and hear them to be sure.

I agree with your last statement, but I am at a loss of what more you could want to learn from the website that you could learn about the Definition's on Zu's website?

I have never heard the Definitions so I have no observations on there performance, but based on the information on their website the specs seems sketchy - see what I mean ;)
Wow 213cobra,, I had to re-read your post several times just to make sure your observations were not a actual direct comparison of the VSA dB99's and the Zu's. The glowing review of the Zu's blurred the fact/fiction line for me on a couple of occasions. I was nearly seduced before realizing your only comparison of the two speakers, were those darn "online" specs of the dB's versus your impressions of the Zu's that you purchased and own? Crossover's asserting themselves, just "squeezing the life out of the music", and "disintegrating the holistic sound" whew, powerful implications. I was nearly tempted to burn my dB's! And the VR1's too! You really must hear the 99's before jumping to any conclusions about them. They truly are anything but the picture you have generically painted them.

For those interested, the VSA dB99's can be seen and heard at the StTropez Hotel Rm#1002 at the upcoming CES. Though not the most conducive venue to audition anything critically,, surprising sometimes the lasting impression a system will leave on you.

Nakoawala,, find dealer nearest you or,, spend a few hundred dollars, and jump on a plane if necessary to audition them or any speaker system you are laying $10k down for. A small amount of $$ and time invested, will save you a lot of grief in the long run.

Jack