Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II

Hi all, hope you had a Merry and very fine Christmas and will have a very Happy New Year!! Hope you sorted your Lenco Helen, good to hear from you again!! Glad to see you're progressing and having some fun by the sound of it Peter, from your description I'd say it sounds like....an idler-wheel drive!! Congratulations and welcome to the Land of Idler. And good idea Ronnie!! Shame on me for not planning a Christmas plinth. Next project, only to be installed over the Christmas season :-).

From the merry sport of Crush the Belt-Drive (and we're climbing the ladder here with some very serious and pricey pieces being crushed) we are progressing to Crush the Direct Drive!! Now, in the interest of promoting the Sermon of Speed Stability Uber Alles (speed stability is THE most important facet of turntable design), I had avoided going after the DDs, wanting to make common cause with them against the Ubiquitous and Dominating Belt-Drivers except in certain allusions and reports of some comparisons and experiences. Feeling all Christian-like and forgiving, I thought about it and sorta felt sorry for those poor belt-drives, their companies, their admirers and so forth, and thought "Really, this isn't very democratic of me, I shouldn't single out the belt-drives any longer," so I now declare Open Season on DDs!!!

Now, this is more an accident than a plan. As you all know, I consider quartz-locking the major problem with direct drive which, since it is being applied to a motor which revolves soooo slowly, and so magnifies any motor imperfections/speed anomalies. Quartz-locking IS an audible speed anomaly (like the belt, an error and an evolutionary dead-end), which results in a dry, mechanical, non-fluid sound, and to a certain extent a quashing of dynamics, especially in comparison to idler-wheel drives. Now seeing as I am, to a certain extent (and to many on many forums), a Pariah in this jelly-fish politically-correct world of no definitive statements or beliefs (even in physically-proveable empirical science) - and you'd better not pronounce or we will crucify you ;-) - I may as well declare War on the DDs too, and offend everyone democratically and equally!! Liberty, Fraternity, Equality is what I say ;-). Now, as I say, this is an accident: one Lenco of mine has finally and utterly squashed a maxed-out Technics SP-10 MKII at a total of some 80-90 pounds; and another one quashed an EMT 948. I hope to provide more details on these comparisons at some point, or better yet get the involved parties (both of whom own their particular machines) to post themselves!! Nevertheless let us ponder the meaning and import of these latest developments. The Technics SP10 MKII is considered one of best Direct Drives ever built, being the no-holds-barred brainchild of a very large corporation with near-limitless resources, Technics/Panasonic. Needless to say, it is quartz-locked, however robustly and well-built (much better than, again, the Lenco). The owner of said Technics had this to say, being the owner of a Giant Direct Coupled Lenco: "I no longer feel anything for the Technics, it is for sale."

Any EMT at all is a Legend, and even makes the more Snobbish, status-oriented Garrard owners (not that all Garrard owners are snobs, after all I am one, I speak only of certain of the more status-oriented ones) quake in their Guccis. The fact that a Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Lenco made the owner of said EMT declare that the Lenco was going to cost him seriously in sleep (as he listened into the wee hours) should give those who look down their noses at the Lencos pause. Think about this fellows: a Lenco has the owner of an EMT 948 thinking about selling off his EMT. That the Lenco even provokes such thoughts is cause for celebration for all idler-wheelers, and for the cause of Equipment in the Service of Music. If indeed the idler-wheel is, as I claim, superior (and it is looking more and more likely), will not admission of this fact lead to better sound reproduction in the home for all? How very democratic and Christmas-sy, and an excellent way to start the New Year: with Real Progress, and not the illusion of Real Progress!! Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!

Finally, let us consider once again the question of MASS (amen). Technics-ers have no debate about high-mass vs low mass: to a Technics-er, there is only one formula, a Heavy plinth. And the heavier the better. A minimum of 40 pounds for the plinth alone is the mantra. Whats does this mean? It means that high-mass, simple as it is, IS the answer. There is no metaphysical mystical affinity of SP10s for high mass and low-mass for certain idlers, there is only Speed stability (Uber Alles) and Mass (to stabilize and absorb noise), nothing else. Unfortunately, it is more difficult to get high-mass and Direct Coupling right, and those who can't make it work and refuse to acknowledge their failings muddy the waters for the rest of us. All I can say is persevere, it works, it's simple and effective, if difficult.

On the question of DDs, I do believe they can be very musical and superior to belt-drives, as I have heard superb DDs: the discredited servo-controlled DDs such as my Sony 2250 for instance, likely another sleeper like the Mighty Lenco. The Sony 2250 has an utterly superb main bearing, perhaps the best I have ever tested, is the product of awesome precision metal-work and it is a heavy and serious machine. But more than that, it is incredibly detailed, in a sunny Mediterranean way, sparkling and light. I've already begun to design and build a plinth for it, and we will see just how good it can be. Unlike idlers with their shaded-pole motors, DDs like the 2250 should respond very well to AC conditioning, in fact, this should be crucial to extracting all the potential from servo-controlled units. Once this one finished to my satifaction, I shall engage in the amusing sport of Crush the Legendary Quartz-Locked DD :-)!!

And getting back to idlers, I was once again considering the Rek-o-Kut last night, and I think there is, indeed, hope for it as a serious audiophile machine, even if it does have a soup-can of a motor. The idler-wheel itself is actually less massive than the Garrard 301/401's, which open up the possibility of Silence. I will apply the lessons learned from rebuilding and restoring Lencos, Garrards and Thorens TD-124s to maximizing the Rek-o-Kut Rondine I have. Remember, every single detail must be attended to. And the Rek-o-Kut is one seriously beautiful Art Deco piece, and I LOVE Art Deco!!

And get this all: the Giant Garrard 301 sporting a Morch UP-4 and a good MC is now my reference for delicacy and daintiness, which puts paid (and will in future in actual comparisons and demonstrations) to the Myth of the Harsh Powerhouse Garrard. The Lenco with JMW/Decca is my Rock'n Roll Machine!! And one last discovery I allowed myself for Christmas: the AKG P8ES is an absolutely superb MM, in fact, it challenges the very best of both MM AND MC! I hope you're all having as much fun as I am!! Happy new Year!!!

Jean and fellow 'Goners, hope you had a great Christmas and I wish you all a grand New Year!

Now, if this guy with the EMT 948 really is thinking about selling his trusty plattenspieler, let me be the first in line to buy it. I will even throw in a Lenco or two or three or four. How about a Garrard 301? 401?

What a fun thread!

Cheers, Steve

Hi Steve, this thread IS fun isn't it? Nothing like stirring up a bit of fun and experimentation!! If the postings on eBay are genuine, EMT 948s are selling by the dozen at the moment, at 700 pounds British a pop. I confess, given their incredible build quality, it certainly doesn't seem genuine, but perhaps someone out there knows.

To recap a bit of history already recapped earlier in this very thread, this is the second EMT owner to fall for the charms of a properly set-up Giant Direct-Coupled Lenco, the first being a fellow with a very large collection of not only EMTs, but also Garrard 301s and 401s, and Thorens TD-124s. He's got the Bug bad (as do I). So, to start the New Year, let's have a look at the history of his own discoveries and recounted tales, in the Great Tradition of Accumulating Evidence. It seems that indeed the Lenco has no upper limit, being only limited by implementation, tuning and recipe. The Lenco demonstrates that build quality is not the whole story, implementation and drive system is: compared with the Garrards, Thorens TD-124, a host of belt-drives and most certainly the EMTs, the Lenco is at the bottom of the heap build-wise. But, it is also a very elegant design aimed like a laser-beam at the problems of speed stability and motor noise and transmission. As I wrote, again at the beginning of this thread, and at many reprises from the beginning of the old thread:

"This is why the Lenco is a work of genius: ELEGANCE. Where EMTs, Garrards and Thorenses are better-built and use “better” motors, the Lenco simply uses what is necessary. As some have pointed out, the towers from which the motor is suspended are cheap tacked-on affairs. Yes, but given that the Lenco motor is hanging from and isolated by springs, a stronger arrangement is not necessary (as simply mounting the Lenco on bricks and attaching a Rega tonearm demonstrates). The motor cannot be divorced from the flywheel-platter, as the idler-wheel makes of the whole an EXTREMELY effective system: the platter has much of its mass concentrated on the rim (as opposed, at least, to the Thorens and the Garrards) and is balanced, which due to its very secure coupling (idler-wheel) regulates the motor speed as the superb motor (spinning gat 1800 rpm and balanced to produce pretty well spot-on speed all on its own via simple momentum) regulates in its turn via torque (wheel) the platter, to create an extremely refined and yet powerful end result. The main bearing certainly doesn’t look like much (though it is very nice and obviously made of very high-quality steel) compared to both these other vintage offerings and modern high-end turntables, but given the horizontal mounting of the motor and less stress (proven by the fact that almost all Lenco main bearings are still in superb condition still) more is not truly necessary. The Lenco motor’s sloping spindle means, also, that such tricks as the magnetic brake on the Garrard, which is often criticized for introducing stresses, is not necessary: the Lenco motor simply spins at full-tilt all the time, open and free, and the wheel is simply slid along length of the sloping motor spindle to achieve perfect and accurate speed."

So, now to the previous Lenco-EMT comparison. For a bit of background, he considers the EMT 927 - an idler-wheel drive - superior to his EMT 950, which is the 948's Big Brother. Among EMT aficionados the 927 is THE EMT of all EMTs. Check out Stafano Pasini’s website (EMTs), as he is an avid collector of EMTs. Significantly, the EMT 927, considered the “Ne Plus Ultra” of EMTs (and hence of turntables period in many circles), is an idler-wheel drive. Just for emphasis and to make the point clear so it is not lost and dismissed as a minor detail: the EMT of all EMTs is the 927, and the 927 is an idler-wheel drive. Peter also had a very hard time bringing his Lenco up to the Heights which it can currently reach (as did I). Now, to the record:

"Hello Jean,
Thanks for your inspiring input. I do agree with a lot of what you say. But when you say: "Each must adjust his 'table combo to match his or her system, these are like complex instruments in their own right!" That turntables in general are amongst the most complex creatures out there, as far as "getting them right" is concerned, I would be the first to admit, but to say that each must adjust his own table combo to match their own system, I feel is perhaps stretching it a bit. My own tables (Garrard 301 (all types), 401, TD124, EMT 930st, 927F, 938 and 950) all have been with me for many, many years, and been played through a lot of shifting electronics and speakers during this time. They are all very good TT:s and consistently performing accordingly, regardless of the rest of the system. Others, like SP10, LP12 and others, have proved to be, at least to me, more inconsistent and perhaps "system dependent". Therefore, when I play my Lenco, that's what I'm looking for, a consistent, solid performance, that can compare with the above machines. My opinion is that if you have an "ultra-solid-table" and the system still doesn't sing or sounds perhaps poorly balanced or whathaveyou - then it's not turntable tuning that you should be thinking about...on the other hand if you know that your system sounds balanced and performs in a satisfactory way except when playing vinyl, then...the TT probably is where it's at.
So methinks that it's all about keeping track of what your point of reference is, and preferably just introduce a single system change/mod/alteration at a time to be able to tell what was responsible for what at the end of the day. This method is, however quite time-consuming as we all know, and can test anyone's patience, but still...
When I listen to any TT (including the L75 in my new plinth), I compare it to my above "references", of which, the EMT 927F, sitting in its EMT shock-absorber frame, on overall balance is the best TT I have ever heard so far.
At the same time, I already know just how good a "good" Lenco can sound, and I gather from what I've been reading in this fantastic thread, that many contributors feel that Jean's method brings this machine right up there, with the very best - so you bet I'll persist - far too important stuff to "ignore".
After all: MUSIC MATTERS MOST! or in short; 3M! - so there's no room for "chance" or "leaving well alone" - more like FULL THROTTLE on this one (;-)
Thanks again for the great input - I'll keep posting any progress I might make.
Thanks Mike for the clarification - greatly appreciated!
Cheers
Peter

07-25-06: Tunein4fun
SUCCESS AT LAST!!! Have worked almost around the clock on my Monster L75. Done it all (apart from gluing the mat to the platter...I will, I will...) - tried various bolting patterns (2 - 12 woodscrews in the pan) and added the top layer to the plinth - the 4 mm bolts are discarded and in their place are sturdy 40 mm woodscrews - drilled up the bolt-holes straight through the chassis. Did some complementary work on the chassis damping, put an Ortofon AS-212 with a Denon DL-103D (playing through old UTC 1950's vintage step up trannies (Petra Music Boys) into my 1958 EICO HF-85).
What can I say, Jean (!!!) and all you other guys who've been so supportive and helpful: GOBSMACKED!!!
I truly couldn't believe it when I heard even the first note being played (it happened to be soft piano entertainment/easy listening piano) - the AIR around that single tiny gentle chord...and then it just went on and on and on...PRAT...DUUUUUUUUUUUDES!!! - now I know what you mean - I had imagined something darn good, judging from the very positive comments from so many contributors - but it's better still; it's just all there (including some minor electrical noise, that I need to sort out) and in such a beautiful way.
I'm humbled and feel obliged to thank Jean again for creating and researching (working-really-really-hard-over-a- long-period-of-time) this "DIY" venture into pretty damn serious TT teritory - THANKS MAN!!!
As many of you have read; I tried this and I tried that and I was (almost) ready to call it a day - but hey, had I put this much work into it already, I just had to see it through, and I'm truly glad I did. To anybody considering taking this project on, I can just say WOOOWW!!! and GO FOR IT!!!.
Cheers
Peter

07-26-06: Tunein4fun
Hello Krenzler and Peter and thanks; the "differences" from "before" are many; I took the time to experiment with the number of screws in the pan - I tried to go about it in a "systematic way", tapping as I went along: I started off with 2 screws, located in the two original existing holes, that are used to bolt the L75 down to its original plinth (they are at 12 & 6 o'clock. From there, I used other existing holes and added some of my own whenever I felt I didn't get the "thud" I was looking for in that particular area. I ended up with 12 screws in the pan - they are not large screws, and they have been tightened so that when tapping the pan anywhere (i.e. in any area supported by the plinth) I get the same kind of "thud" i.e. it sounds uniformly the same (as far as I can tell anyway).
I'm sure that the same result can be had, using another number of screws, positioned differently from mine. As mentioned previously; earlier I had left out the top layer of the plinth (i.e. the ply layer with the "big round hole" - for the pan - in it). This meant that the chassis part, surrounding the pan was "sailing in the wind". I know Jean mentioned to me that he - with some player at least - had heard very little difference soundwise, coming out from bolting down that particular chassis bit, so I didn't think much of it. What I found on my Monster L75, was that adding more chassis damping material (almost completely filling it up) and bolting down the chassis edge (i.e. the outer lower edge of the entire square chassis) made a huge difference. Jean earlier quoted Shindo, who said he used woodscrews to bolt the Garrard to his plinth instead of the original Garrard bolts, 'cos of the superior coupling he got that way. So I thought I've got nothing to lose, trying the same trick. The sad part is that I did most of these "changes" in one go, so it's impossible to recap what each alteration actually accomplished. However, I intend to make another MegaMonsterL75 (inspired by Jean's reports on the improvemnt of adding even more mass) and hopefully on that one, I will be able to keep a log to try to find out what does what.
There is no material whatsoever, between the pan-bottom and the plinth - it's bolted solid to the wood.
Peter, mounting the Ortofon arm, wasn't all that difficult - I enlarged the original Lenco armhole, so that the Ortofon base could pass through it (these bases come in taller and shorter versions - I used a shorter one). I made a tonearm-board from an LP12 tonearm-board - this is only supported by and coupled to the plinth in the corners via quite small woodscrews (just gripping and then a tiny bit more). I will post some pix later.
The Monster still isn't properly supported or "ideally located" but it doesn't seem to care.. it simply produces stunning music (;-D
I was playing some Jimmy Smith this morning - an old 1960's US Verve (stereo) - geeeeeeez...I'll say it again; I'm GOBSMACKED!!! It's beyond "audio", as Jean put it (;-)

07-26-06: Reinderspeter
Tunein4fun,
Out of curiosity, where does this leave the Lenco in comparison to your EMTs?
Peter

07-26-06: Tunein4fun
Reinderspeter...curiosity killed the cat...and I have yet to A-B these machines, but my very convincing gut feeling is that the Monster is superior in quite a few areas (the most "natural PRAT" I have ever heard for one). The first time I heard a 930 play, it was an eye-opener for real, and I just had to have one. It took me a very long time to track down a 927, but when I finally got the chance to hear one play, I was impressed out of my shoes - it was so much better - the best TT I had ever heard overall - took me an even longer time to locate one that was for sale... The feeling I have, listening to my Monster is much stronger still - I really do lack words, but to use some; gobsmacking, flabbergasting, astonishing, mind-blowing - I-HUMBLY-ADMIT-I-HAD-NO-IDEA; it's that sort'a out-of-this-world kind'a thing - by far the biggest kicker in my entire audio-life (been into "audio" for 35 years and especially TTs). This is not a "linear" improvement on other TTs - it's a GIANT LEAP for vinyl reproduction. So I would say; THE MONSTER RULES! I will eventually, for fun or "for the record" do some A-B when time permits, and post whatever results I get here.
Short version: The Monster is simply one heck of a TT!
Plans for the MegaMonster are already in the back of my mind - some ideas lurking about, and a couple of things I'd like to try. Please note that this attempt is not at all prompted by any urge to "improve" on the Monster (I'm not touching the Monster...it's faaar tooo goood for that) - simply to have fun - yup (;-)- afterall that's what life's (almost...) all about methinks.
Even with the plain or "lowly" Shure M75 the Monster excels and shines in the most enchanting way, regardless of what I throw at it music-wise - a fact that probably will put whatever little "credibility" I have, on the line with some people, but hey; so be it!!!
I realize that I have used some pretty strong wording in this post and if somebody reading this, thinks that I'm exaggerating or that I'm "over the top"...think again (;-)"

End of record. All that said, will this latest EMT owner sell his EMT? I don't know. But if he does he won't have any trouble selling it Steve, so just keep your eyes open in case he does post it. I had waited to see if the Lenco-EMT comparison was just a matter of mistaken first impressions, but so far this isn't the case. The Lenco story (and by extension the Idler Story) isn't over, not by a long shot. It can be further perfected and many are working on this. However, the core of the Lenco - platter, bearing and idler-wheel/arm - remains as a testament to the Power of the Idler. Comparisons will continue, reports will continue to come in. The Lenco is still the cheapest way to achieve world-class reproduction, and it may be even better than that. The Garrard is more expensive, but when one considers just how good it can be made to be, it too is cheap for the investment made, as was reported in a review in positive-feedback (401vsTNT). Long may the search for magical music in the home continue, time now to go out and enjoy nature!! Have fun all!!

News from my part of the world- The Great Northwest. The mighty Lenco has just demolished a Nottingham Spacedeck and will soon do the same to a Well Tempered.
A toast to Jean Nantais and his quest to bring us out of the 70, 80, 90 dark ages of the belt drive and into the Enlightened Age of retro idler wheel Lenco-ology.
Happy New Year Lenco lovers!

I shouldn't let the year 2006 end without adding to the Great Tradition of Accumulating Evidence of how idler wheel drives crush belt drives. I'm the proud owner of one of Jean's latest creations, a beautiful piano black Direct Coupled Glass Reinforced Giant Lenco. I've tried this Black Beauty with a couple of different arms and cartridges and it's taken me a while to mount the SME V/Koetsu Rosewood Signature combo that I used to have on my previous table, a VPI HW-19 Mk IV tricked up as close as possible to the TNT level. Now I can make the direct comparison.

And the winner is...no surpise... THE LENCO!! It's not a close call. The most dramatic and obvious difference is a HUGE increase in bass power and refinement. That bass improvement is just the most easily noticeable aspect of an overall increase in dynamics. I had no idea my sweet little Koetsu was actually a thundering monster at heart! The more I've listened to different material, the more I'm appreciating that the Lenco is bringing an all-around improvement in clarity and detail. I'm hearing the distinct sound of different instruments in places where their sounds used to blur together. Words in songs that I couldn't quite make out before are now easy to hear. Transients are faster. All the Koetsu's best qualities of lushness combined with detail are heightened, and a level of PRaT has appeared that was nowhere in sight before.

Maybe even more dramatic than what the Lenco does for the Koetsu is what it does for the humble Denon DL-103. Jean isn't kidding about the Kundalini Effect - the Denon on the SME V produces a level of PRaT that induces higher levels of consciousness!

Now to invite my skeptical audio store buddies over for a demo that will rock their worldview. Happy New Year to Lenco Renegades all!