@bigboltz
The remote is nice, but I find the range is limited (10 feet or so). I have to contact Ralph and see if the remote needs batteries or if I need to situate the preamp differently.
I am glad to hear the M-60's have enough punch for quatro's. I was going to get them, but my, then 3a sigs were more power hungry, and he had a pair of upgraded MA-1 v2's for sale at a good price, so I went with those. I probably should have had the hi pass incorporated, in hindsight. Those stupid M5-HP's are not very attractive hanging off the inputs. @alexysflores
Vandersteens are pretty stable with Atma-Sphere amps, more so when using the crossovers. I think Ralph says his amps should be good with even 4 ohm loads.
@ozzy
If Bigboltz is doing good with M60's, I am pretty sure you will be okay.
Of course the best info would be from Ralph himself. But, if Almarg says you have been using very little power with your current amp, then I wouldn't be concerned.-Ralph's designs are not only refined, but they are tough (as in, well built).
B
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My long awaited M-60's have finally been shipped! I should have them middle of next week. ozzy |
bigboltz, Have you received your upgraded Atma-sphere's yet? ozzy |
My MP-3 3.3 shipped on Friday. I'll have it Thursday.
My M60s are 3.1 and I'll send those in later this year. Gonna be a long 5 days! |
bigboltz, That's Great! Mine were also shipped but Ralph said the tubes in the unit are not so good but usable. So, I ordered some NOS from Russia and China but who knows when they will arrive? According to the Fed Ex tracking (at this time), my amps are to arrive on Tuesday. I have a doctors appointment that day so I probably won't be able to use them until Wednesday. ozzy |
Not to sound rude, but why didn't you get some tubes from Ralph?
I only got into this recently, so I don't know much regarding tubes.
Are the Russian and Chinese tubes better? I have read about tube rolling and would like to learn more.
B |
gdnrbob, Let’s just say it was about economics. I have other new tubes available (Tung-Sol and Sovtek) in addition to the Russian and Chinese tubes that I just ordered. So, I’m really not hurting for tubes. But Ralph said to burn in the new tubes for about 72 hours in standby before using. I will be going crazy if I could not try out the amps until 3 days later after waiting this long! So I will use the tubes that will come with the M-60’s for the trial. And, if the Atma-spheres become a keeper, I’ll burn in the tubes that I ordered. I have some new driver tubes coming that I will have on Monday. They are vintage RCA 1950 (9 new). The output tubes that I ordered from Russia are (16 new) Svetlana 1970. The Chinese tubes are (16 new) Shuguang 6NP5PJ. However, if I don’t keep the Atma-spheres I will have a lot of tubes to sell... P.S. As you can tell, I try to never do things half way. I remember years ago my wife wanted a gold fish bowl. I ended up with a 250 gallon saltwater reef tank! ozzy
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gdnrbob, In answer to your question about tube quality. I believe that tubes made before transistors took over were considered to be of the highest quality. Especially those made for the WW2 war effort branded JAN. (Joint Army Navy). These tubes were used in submarines and were made to be quiet. The materials used were purer and made to withstand stress and would last longer. Replacement tubes were still made decades later. I'm not sure when the US stopped making tubes but Russia and China continued. Tung-Sol is still making new tubes that are said to be of high quality but still probably not as good as the older ones. Anyone else have some input on the different brands of tubes quality? ozzy
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@ozzy ,
The Tung Sol name got bought out a few years ago and is now being used to mark Russian-made 6SN7s. Usually these are the same tubes as the Electro Harmonix but with a brown base. They are nothing like the old-school Tung Sols which were a nice tube.
We've had some very good comments on the Psvane, Sophia and TJ Music tubes; along the lines of 'combining the best of the NOS tubes without the weaknesses' which is a pretty strong statement. You do still have to pick them for low noise and microphonics though, but generally this is not a big deal in the amps.
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Where's a good source for Russian and Chinese 6AS7? |
Thanks ozzy, I didn’t realize that new tubes had to be conditioned. When I got my MA-1, I just installed the tubes and listened (well, I did let thing run in for a while). I didn’t know that they were pre-conditioned- Well, I hope the were.
I will be surprised if you don’t keep the Atma’s. And, should that happen, I hope you will give your reasons.
Bob |
knghifi, I did a search on EBay. There are quite a lot to pick from. gdnrbob, Thanks, I went this far expecting big things from the M-60's. But, I'm still not quite sure what to expect. After all, I will be coming from a SS amp that had all the power I ever needed and which has had many reviews that claim the Pass Labs amps has a tube like sound. So, soon I will know about the Atma-Sphere. Thanks Ralph for the additional information. ozzy |
Pass Labs vs Atma-Sphere, two thoroughbreds, should be quite interesting.
Charles |
gdnrbob,
I'll get my MP-3 this week. I was wondering if yours has the phono stage and if so, what do you think? What others have you had for comparison? |
Where's a good source for Russian and Chinese 6AS7? We stock both and both are available on ebay. Usually when we ship a set of amps we precondition the tubes first and then play them. In this case since the amp was used it came with its own tubes. So we tested them and played them. Its not quite the same... At any rate, over the years we've been researching how the tubes fail. Most of them fail immediately after shipment or else when they reach the end of their service life (which can often be 10,000 hours or more). The 'after shipment' part is what concerns us most. What we've been finding is that most of the tubes fail due to arc-over and subsequent damage to the internal elements. It appears that the mechanism is the cathode coating, which is very much like a paint applied to the cathode (but in this case improves the cathode's ability to emit electrons; this is true of all tubes). The cathode coating can flake apart just like old house paint and if the tube is conducting the tube can arc as the flakes are conductive. Since many of these tiny flakes can be loosened during shipment, if the tube is subsequently subjected to a prolonged heating cycle most of the flakes that are occurring can fall harmlessly to the bottom of the tube and then the tube can provide normal service after that. This applies to any in-directly heated power tube and is nothing unique to the tube we use. IOW running the amp in Standby for a few hours is a good practice anytime its been shipped, assuming the amp has a Standby function. |
@bigboltz, sorry I have no phono stageon my preamp. I found streaming music and am hooked. |
Well, though the Fed Ex truck broke down, I finally got the M-60’s. A Couple of Questions: The ember and red lights are way too bright compared to the tubes. I have put some electrical tape over them to dim them. Is there a more elegant way to do this? The term putting the amp in standby is confusing. I assume this means both switches are on and full power is applied just nothing is playing? Is the screw next to the center switch the DC offset Null adjustment? almarg, You were right about the need to rebalance the DEQX. The M-60’s do not have the same gain as the Pass Labs which caused a big difference in the main speakers and the JL-Audio Subs levels. I have increased the gain through the DEQX for the main speakers, and I will do a complete DEQX setup later. I will hold my comments about sound quality until I have more time using them. ozzy
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Ozzy
Take out the amber and red lamps and replace them with 12v version. They run alot dimmer. Also, standby is just the amber lights on. |
It's been quite a while since I've been on the 'gon and even longer since I've posted anything. Hello Charles, hello Ralph. Hope all is well with you and yours?
Seems like I purchased my MP-1 and MA-1 Mk 3's not long after SoundStage did a review of them in 2007. Gee, has it been that long? After owning CJ, VTL, CAT and a gaggle of other highly regarded "audiophile approved" offerings, I rolled the dice and went with something a bit different; OTL's. Actually, the MP-1 isn't an OTL but it is a revelation compared to what I'd owned previously.
I actually purchased the MP-1 first. I really like Ken Stevens and have owned many of his preamps over the years but honestly, brand new out of the box, the MP-1 was in a different league than my CAT Ultimate Mk 2. Immediately, the music was more relaxed, smoother and more refined. Transparency and detail were off the charts yet not in your face like some audiophile gear. A slight edge to the sound that I had suspected all along was revealed by the MP-1 and was gone.
Enough blather, bottom line, the MP-1 was so good, I had to go with the MA-1s. I also went with all upgrades in both components except for the "power supply boost" which it seems like Ralph said wasn't necessary with my set-up.
Like others in this post, my speakers are DIY with separate satellites powered by the MA-1's and subs that are self powered using some really nice Rythmik Class A/B amps. I mention this because anyone with such a set-up should consider a second pair of outputs on your line stage; one for your amp/amps, the other for your subs.
Ten years or so later, no regrets. Matter of fact, last Saturday night my system sounded so good, I didn't get to bed til 4:00 am. Bet you haven't done that in a while Charles?
As Ralph explained, a short break-in of the 6AS7 power tube is the way to go and will extend life and reliability. When mine first arrived, I do recall one died early on but Ralph had included a few extras so no problem. Years later, they're still operating perfectly. Ditto for the MP-1.
Tube rolling, don't get me started. I'm of the opinion, the larger 6SN7 type tube is far superior for audio than the miniatures like 6922/6DJ8's or 12AX7. I know Ralph uses 12AT7's in the phono but a different application than a line stage or driver in an amp.
I've accumulated so many Telefunkens, Tungsols(1940's/50's) and other beauties from the past, I shudder to think what I've got tied up in tubes. Many of the oldies like the RCA red base 5962 can last 10,000 hours or more. Not so with the mediocre stuff coming from Asia and Russia. Sound quality, no comparison. Like all manufacturers, Ralph has to use what's readily available but after a good break-in, I'd experiment.
I notice with concern, the MP-1 now uses only two 6SN7's per side instead of five. Hopefully we're not losing any of the good things valves bring to the table. Besides lower noise, what's your thinking Ralph? Cheaper to re-tube? Just kidding! Hey, what about tube rolling? Have all my NOS jewels suddenly become worthless?
A pair of MA-1's with 14 power tubes per amp, 28 glorious tubes glowing in my dimly lit great room and I really don't notice the heat. Actually, nicer than a fire place and cheaper if you consider what some people spend on good hard wood to burn.
I barely notice those red and amber lights either. Must be all the glowing 6AS7's. See, if you'd gotten the MA-1's instead of the M-60's, you wouldn't have a problem. Just kidding, we're all on a budget.
I really shouldn't have read this thread. I probably won't sleep well tonight as I toss and turn thinking about "upgrading" to 3.3's.
Ok Ralph, after all this high praise, I expect some special consideration when I call.
Finally, read the manual. This isn't rocket science. First, toggle up the amber side. Let them warm up five minutes. Then you toggle up the red side. Wait a few more minutes then crank it up. DC offset, I adjusted mine when I first got them, about 10 years ago, and haven't touched them since. I suppose if I ever have to replace a tube I'll check offset and that's about it. Not so complicated!
Well, time for bed. Live long and prosper y'all. |
Hi Bob (rfogel8),
It’s good to see your post and I’m glad to know you and your family are doing well, life is precious. I can’t say that I am up until 4 am but I still listen to music pretty much the same as always. Roughly 3 to 4 hours (sometimes longer) 4 or 5 days a week.
I still very fondly recall my SET amplifier with your easily driven DIY speakers and your MP-1 preamplifier, it was really a fun and memorable evening, natural, engaging and relaxed. Wow, the years fly by 😊. I am happy that you are finding the time to enjoy your wonderful system. Music is good stuff to spend time with and appreciating its charms.
Charles |
bigboltz, Does the bulb get removed from the outside? And is the 12V version just a simple drop in? rfogel18, Thank you for sharing your experiences. We all learn a lot from members like you. ozzy |
I notice with concern, the MP-1 now uses only two 6SN7's per side
instead of five. Hopefully we're not losing any of the good things
valves bring to the table. Besides lower noise, what's your thinking
Ralph? Cheaper to re-tube? Just kidding! Hey, what about tube rolling?
Have all my NOS jewels suddenly become worthless?
Ha! Actually the MP-1 uses three 6SN7s per channel. In the Mk3.3 version, prior to its release we had spent two years working on a Constant Current Source (CCS) circuit that could outperform the one in the earlier preamps (and amps). In the amps the old CCS drifted about 17 parts per million over an AC input voltage range from 100V to 126V. This in turn assured that the voltage amplifier performance stayed the same over the same range. In the preamp the same circuit was used but the preamp has severely regulated supplies so it was a bit more immune. At any rate, the new CCS is performing at about an order of magnitude greater performance so we were able to improve the differential effect in the voltage amplifiers of the amps and preamps; in the case of the MP-1 this meant that two 6SN7s got eliminated in each channel as they were CCS circuits. But the actual signal path tubes are the same. To remove the bulb on one of our amps: unscrew the lens (lenses of other colors and texture are available). The bulb is an old-school bayonet mount and so you push on it and twist it 90 degrees counterclockwise and it pops out of the holder. To reinstall is the reverse process. The stock bulb is a type 47 which is a 6V lamp (we run it at 4.5V for greatly extended life and to dim it a bit); a 12V lamp can be installed. |
Ok, after about a day of use, this is what I just emailed Ralph. Ralph, I am using a DEQX preamp unit. Along with preamp functions it has an electronic crossover. It measures the speakers, subs and then the room. You don't have to perform any EQ function. I was amazed at how very flat my DIY satellites measured! Never, have I seen that type of flatness before with the Pass Labs amp! More to follow. ozzy |
Ralph, I stand corrected. I saw a photo of the MP-1 3.3 on "What's Best Forum" and as the saying goes, sometimes we look but don't see. Three 6SN7's and five 12AT7's per side. As usual, the layout looks meticulous.
I assume the front 6SN7 nearest the faceplate still has the most effect when tube rolling?
Glad you're doing well Charles and still listening regularly. I see Fremer was in town recently and spent some listening time at Jeff's. We should get together soon and spin some tunes. You still running all Coincident? I thoroughly enjoyed that evening listening to your Frankenstein's. At only 8 watts and as loud as I cranked them up at times, I couldn't believe they never clipped. I see why 300b's have such a loyal following. I'd love to hear what Blume could do with 845 monos. I wouldn't give up my MA-1's but variety is the spice......
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Ozzy, do you have any pics of your speakers?
B |
Bob,
Fremer spent about 3 hours at Jeff's listening and they had a good time. Yes I'm still full Coincident, just as you're Atma-Sphere. we're both quite happy so why change? By the way Israel (Coincident) will be debuting 845 SET mono blocks in the near future. I'm all for getting together for some listening, its been awhile.
Charles
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As usual, the layout looks meticulous.
I assume the front 6SN7 nearest the faceplate still has the most effect when tube rolling? Yes. It seems to sound a lot better too. In particular the phono has more gain and less noise. My workers take a lot of pride in their work and usually sign the equipment after its done. |
gdnrbob, There are some pictures on my systems page. Except for the front baffle they are hi-gloss and near impossible to take a quality picture of them. The sides and back are curved. ozzy |
Come on ozzy how do they sound already?? Don't leave us all hanging here! :P
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Yeah ozzy, whaddaya think?! |
Well Ive had my MP3 3.3 for 24 hrs or so. I'm sure I would have to take out a 2nd on the house or sell a kidney to do any better. Its early but clearly a big step up for me. The staging is super cool. Each instrument pinpointed in its own space. Depth is remarkable.
This will surprise no one, but Ralph has been wonderful in his support and has shown great patience with all of my questions and requests.
Thanks to you and your team, atmasphere! |
jond, bigboltz, I have tried several times to post but each time I’ll get almost done, then I edit (on Audiogon) and I lose the entire post! What a pain! So, I am using Word and the old cut and paste method. Anyway, I have had several issues, some related to the Atma-Sphere and some not. First off, as Almarg alluded to several replies back that with using the DEQX preamp settings that were adjusted to the Pass Labs amps output / impedances there would be an imbalance between the main and the subs. He was right and I set about to re-DEQX with the Atma-Spheres. If you have never used a DEQX unit it can be quite laborious to complete the process. Then, the next day there was no sound from one channel. All the tubes were lit but no sound whatsoever. I re-checked all of my connections and could find no reason. I thought the worse that something failed internally in the M-60. I called Atma-Sphere and Ralph answered the phone. He suggested that I check the main output fuse. I thought, why, all the tubes are lit? But, when I pulled out the fuse it was blown. Replacing it brought back the sound in that channel. A day later while trying to use the M60 with my home theater, again no sound from the other channel, and that was also a blown fuse. Ralph, suggested that it was probably caused by one of the tubes arching since they have been moved around a lot during shipping and some flaking internal in the tube must have occurred. I concur somewhat, but I also did try to play the M60 extremely loud to test its limits. I had a problem related to my Grand Prix amp stands and with my external crossover boxes. I used a short jumper to connect from the M-60’s to the crossover. When playing music the sound was dull. I thought for sure it was due to the Atma-Spheres. What I found was that the stiff 12 gauge silver/copper wire used as the jumper was actually under the shelf and was supporting the Grand Prix shelf thus preventing the shelf from floating on their own cushy pads. To add to this, HiFidelity sent me one of their new Reveal XLR interconnects for trial and that has been another variable. Placing this interconnect behind my main component rack near the bottom, underneath other connections, was another real pain! The XLR ends are bulky and the cables are not flexible. As much as others are singing the praises of these interconnects I found them dull and limited in the frequency extremes. So, I tried to DEQX again with these cables and I just couldn’t get the sound right. So, I removed the Reveals to eliminate that variable and went back to re-setting the DEQX. To make a long story short, my initial thought on the Atma-Sphere M-60’s is that they have real potential. But I notice that I don’t have a real good center image. This could mean they have a wider soundstage and the need for speaker reposition including toe in / out. So, I really do think it is too early to critique much more until I put more time on the M-60’s. ozzy |
Sorry to hear of your posting and other troubles ozzy and thanks for the update. Obviously you've put together a very complicated system there with many moving parts. I am guessing it would take substantial time and tinkering to get it sounding the way you want after dropping something as monumental as new amps into the mix. Not to mention you said the speakers themselves are recently completed and probably need some further running in time. So good point no need to critique now just take your time to get it all sounding right and remember it's a marathon not a sprint, you'll get there eventually!
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+1 to Jon's wise counsel.
Ozzy, regarding the DEQX calibrations, to be sure it's clear I was envisioning that in addition to the effect of the amp change on the balance between the main speakers and the subs, the DEQX measurements (and the resulting calibrations/corrections) of the DIY mains themselves might change. The reason being differences in impedance interactions between the mains and the very different output impedance of the M-60 vs. the Pass amp.
It sounds, though, like you're intending to re-do the entire DEQX measurement & calibration/correction process, which of course would address this.
Continued best of luck.
-- Al
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Just found out why the center image was missing. I had a wire reversed on one of the jumpers to my external crossover. I must have done it while repositioning it on the amp stand. It did sound like it was out of phase. I just posted some pictures of the amps and the external crossover on my systems page. ozzy |
Ozzy
Ive had my M60s for about 7 months. I bought them used and they came with a ton of the Chinese power tubes. The seller didnt indicate which ones were good or not. So it took and evening of swapping ( and a box of fuses) to get them up and running and holding the DC offset. Since then, I've had 2 tubes fail. Each took out the fuse by the power cord. Otherwise, they have been rock solid. I play them at least a few hours each evening and sometimes all weekend long. Dont get discouraged. I plan on re-tubing with the Russian variety soon.
Soundwise, I swapped them out with a pair of Quicksilver monos( which are great amps in their own right) and it was quickly apparent how special they really are. The Quickies seemed slow and veiled by comparison.
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bigboltz, It sounds like I need more fuses on hand. BTW, I have had a problem finding 3A slow blow fuses. With no more Rat Shacks, and hardware stores don't carry them. The M-60's are settling in nicely. I wonder though on the copper V-Caps and how long they may take to fully break in. The soundstage is becoming very wide and deep. So much so that I am fiddling with toe in / toe out. Someone mentioned earlier that to reduce the light on the yellow and red indicater lamps to try 12v versions. I actually found some 12V-3 watt and that really did the trick! Lamps illuminate but don't overpower the tubes. Question: At the moment I have a mismatch of tubes. Could that cause a shift in soundstage? ozzy |
If in the driver tubes, possibly. If some of the power tubes are blown out in one channel that could do it too. Check the power tubes against what you see in this article on the Support section of our website: http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/6AS7G_Visual_Inspection.phpSome say the copper foil V-Caps take about 150 hours, be we experience them sounding very good right out of the box. However, with all the updates done on this set of amps, they're going to need some break-in time; as they break in they will become more lucid. Since you're trying to nurse those old power tubes you might want to get some 3 amp slow blow fuses off of ebay or amazon. We sell them also. |
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atmasphere, Thank you for the help. I should have my NOS tubes from Russia soon, they are now in the USA. And I already have my NOS RCA’s. So soon I will be able to do the dreaded 72 hour burn in without music. almarg, I did buy a few fuses locally. And I ordered about 25 more on Amazon. Glad I didn’t buy the exotic version $$$ SR Black fuses. ozzy
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Thank GOD it's not an ARC and boutique fuses. Otherwise early Christmas for the trolls. |
And potentially the 4th of July for the ARC owner. ;-) |
bdp242,110 posts03-14-2017 10:34pmAnd potentially the 4th of July for the ARC owner. ;-) Easy now .. Down boy ... Down Go take a cold shower Where's the other hound? :-) |
Ozzy, I hope you have gotten things settled a bit? I, and others look forward to your evaluation.
B |
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Well, at this point here’s an update of my opinion of the
Atma-Sphere M-60’s compared to my Pass Labs X350.5.
First off, the cu V-Caps have maybe 40 hours on them. I
recall reading somewhere that these caps take the longest of all caps to break
in. Somewhere between 250-500 hours! Ralph from Atma-Sphere indicated 140 hours
is probably all they need. Also, I am still using the older mismatch tubes that
came with the used M-60’s. In addition, some of my favorite tweaks did not
apply well with the M-60’s. One of them that surprised me was the Synergistic
Research carbon XOT’s. The XOT’s placed at the speaker cable ends had provided
a nice sharpening of the image. But now with the Atma-Sphere amps the sound was
limited in the frequency extremes. I think they must have had a conflict with
the M-60’s 4 ohm output impedance. So, I ended up selling them!
So, with all that being mentioned, I am getting some very
nice sound quality even at this early point in the break in process. There is a
very wide and deep soundstage. There is a smoothness that is hard to describe.
It is not a veiling of upper frequencies for I have noticed so many chimes,
bells and every king of tingling sounds imaginable in familiar recordings that
I did not notice before. No, it is a smoothness that makes it easy to listen to
music for long intervals. The vocals are pure and true and to me very lifelike.
And although I am crossing over the lower bass at 100 Hz to (2) JL Audio F-113
subs the bass notes are taking on a more definitive tone. That is, you can
follow the walking of the bass lines better, very enjoyable. Evidently the bass
notes do not just reside in just the lower range.
I originally thought that playing music as loud as before
(compared to my high power SS amp) might be a problem. Yeah, I’m an old time
rocker (64 years old). And, I have been known to crank it up to, “feel the
music”. All you air guitar rockers know what I mean… With the M-60’s, I can still
play the music quite loud with my DIY speakers and external crossover’s. So, I
did a good job matching the driver components to mesh well with the
Atma-Sphere’s. But, the weird thing is, I find myself listening at lower sound levels
more than before and I don’t know why.
Both of the amps (Pass Labs & Atma-Sphere) have their
sonic qualities. I do however believe that my Pass Labs amp has more dynamic’s
and will play significantly louder, especially with lower impedance speakers
like my old Eggleston Andra 2’s. The Pass Labs also has more slam and startle
factor, and they do have similar warmth as the Atma-Spheres
The Atma-Sphere M-60’s have a purer tone and I think
reveal a little more detail. I have many audio recordings that I recorded through
the decades of live performances from TV/Cable/Satellite broadcasts (the
Tonight Show, Jay Leno, Grammy award shows and such) that with the M-60’s I now
detect distortion. Distortion that I never knew were in those
TV/Cable/Satellite recordings with the Pass Labs amp.
At this moment, my preference is the Atma-Sphere M-60’s over
the Pass Labs for its higher sonic purity. And I love those dimly lit tubes!
But, we audiophiles are a fickle bunch that changes minds often. If I change speakers
or if I long for more slam and loudness the Pass Labs will be sitting on the
sidelines. I don’t intend to sell either product at this time.
ozzy |
Thanks for posting your impressions. Your experience mirrors mine and is significantly better worded. I have no doubt that as things 'burn in', you will notice even more details.
As I have said before, I was completely amazed with how musical Ralph's amps are.
I think having two different amps is a nice way to keep things fresh.
Bob |
I forgot to ask, did you do the DEQX calibration, yet?
B |
gdnrbob, Thanks! Yes I did do the DEQX calibration very useful tool. ozzy |
