Wow, I don't even know where to start. How the heck did I get pulled into this thread? Glad I am Johnny's payroll. Sorry Johnny for buying my Ayre AX5/20 from Ralph at Take 5 in New Haven. He's a GREAT dealer and a darn nice guy just like Johnny is. Oh, I also got a small Linn system for the bedroom (hate it) from a dealer in Dallas. Great guys all of them. That was a year and a half ago. Oh I forgot, I have recently purchased headphones at another dealer.
My point is that you should never make a statement like that about me when you don't know me or anything about me other than some posts I make about equipment. Like the owner of some dealership you have talked about, I've been in audio a bit too. I've been involved since 1969. I started my system early in life. I've been blessed to meet many great and some not so great folks in the industry. Heck, my ex was Mark Levinson's attorney many years ago. I am in contact with many a reviewer too and know who I trust and who I don't. There are some I like, but we hear very differently and like different products. I believe in my own ears and don't need to go to dealers to tell me how great anything is. Honestly, that's why I ended up at Johnny's and started buying Vandersteen's. They sold themselves.
The last thing I was going to even listen to were Vandy's as my old dealer I was loyal to sold them, but never had them set up properly so I never liked them. I was closed minded. Not any more. I hear a ton of gear as I travel and get asked to audition. Heck, heard the 9H's the second day they made their NA tour at the Audio Store in Newington, CT where I grew up. Bernie the owner is a GREAT guy and will also take the time to let folks audition. See, again not working on Johnny's payroll or anyone else's.
Unlike many of the folks posting, I have no hidden agenda or any agenda other than have discourse and sometimes debate with some great posters and some, well.......
When you decide to make a post hiding behind a keyboard about someone you really should have your facts in order as that makes things personal. Talking about audio products is not personal regardless of how much we love what we own and listen to.
I'm not made or hot under the collar, just stunned that my name came up in a thread by a poster who is clueless in making the allegations they have made. It was just wrong and very rude.
From now on, just email me to let me know when you bring my name up in any posts on any boards so that I may at least defend my name. Pete at ctsooner@alumni.ou.edu I'm not hiding behind a keyboard.
Oh, not that it matters, but I WISH I was able to work at Johnny's or any of the dealers I mentioned. Since you don't know crap about who I am, I'll share a spec. I'm a retired Navy Commander. I'm a Surface Warfare Officer who drove the USS Kitty Hawk back in the day. I'm a proud dad of two wonderful children. One is 18, with Autism who stunned us all in his growth and is attending college this year in PA. My daughter is a Jr at Univ of New Hampshire. She's majoring in Astro and Nuclear physics and minoring in Entrepreneurship. She also captains the cheer squad that is heading to nationals in April. My wife owns an insurance agency and writes in over 38 states. We have three Yorkies.
I can no longer work as I had Transverse Myelitis that was caused by MS. I use a rollator to get around. I'm very active and do everything I can possibly do, but many days I have to just stay home by myself with my dogs. We will hang out on forums all day and listen to music of all types.
There you go, that's what I have decided to share, but still not WHO I am. Oh, I love Vandersteen's, Ayre, Basis and Audioquest. Guilty for liking them all. I also like a ton of other gear, but this is what I currently own and I realize that we all like different things and that's why there are forums. Not trying to sell a darn thing, other than older gear that I wanted to move like many other folks.
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Thanks for the apology. My phone and email blew up after it. I'm not into promoting anything. Just love what I ended up with, but as I said, I get out all the time to audition. At least once a week at various stores. I will no long enter Lyric.
I objectively listen to all speakers that I can as it's my money and not Vandersteen's or Johnny's. I have liked a lot of what I heard from the larger Legacy's, but hated anything below the Aries. The highs literally hurt my ears in their old tweeter and the new one, although better to my ears, still wasn't sweet. Heard them with both ss and tube gear. Just not for me for the price. I dislike the Focals that I've heard as they were more 2D than 3D if that makes sense. I dislike Wilsons as they are distorted and lack micro and macro detail. The new Paradigm Persona 9H's are decent new speakers, but for the 35k, they are not as good as my new to be delivered Quatro's for more than half that cost. Something was missing and I don't know what it was. The B&W 802D3 were too forward for my tastes and the Dynaudio (forget the name) were very nice. I liked that tweeter, but they lacked coherency for me. They have a 55k speaker that I like, but I don't love the rest of their line. Their sound is all over the place. I like the new Avalon's, but wouldn't purchase them right now for many reasons that I'd never share in public right now. Salk makes a good speaker, but not as good as the speakers I like IMHO.
Again, I purchase as a system so everything I have goes nicely together. Of most of the speakers I've mentioned, I have heard them in various set ups and or in various places (stores or folks systems). I don't do shows as you can't tell how anything sounds there.
When I find a speaker that sounds better than the carbon fiber cones that Vandersteen is making in house and also implements them better, then I'll think about making a move again. I just don't chase my tail.
I own Paradigms btw and knew John Bouvier who is in charge of sales at Audio Plus Services when he was at Sennheiser, so it's not bias against Paradigm.
I'm happy you like your dealer and your system. |
Should you ever listen to enough live music thru various Vandersteen speakers, you'll notice their drivers/crossovers are Phase and time Time correct. They are wired in the same polarity as the microphone. This allows listeners, especially me, a natural timing and feel for the music.
My take is that this is the way are brains are wired. Conventional speakers certainly do their best from a tonal standpoint, but their drivers polarity are randomly pushing forward while their other drivers are sucking. That's 180 degrees out of phase in the back direction and may explain why it sounds disjointed for me and others. It's more then just a tonal thing, its the whole experience of combined efforts and pieces that work together to create a point source, coherent sound that is musical and has no smearing, giving us the micro and macro detail without fatigue.
Thanks CT
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Glad you are happy with your purchase, but honestly, there is no best in class. Only best for whomever owns them. That's the reality. Looks too are subjective also. That's reality.
As I posted on a Paradigm forum on another board, they are nice speakers. I have heard them enough times to make a good judgment for MYSELF. I'm glad they got a nice review, but just like reviews for Vandersteen's (my market winner) they are from reviewers in their system and should be taken that way. It's a great start to a search, but a great review does not really 'validate' any component. We all want our own buyers validation though and it comes out in many peoples post, including mine. That's human nature and isn't changing anytime soon.
BTW Troy, you really need to go back and read your post about first order crossovers. A few of the things you say are true of them, but they can be done properly, it's just that it's so hard and very expensive to do. Vandersteen, Avalon and a few others over the years have done a great job and not that the tech can support it even better, you can get some great speakers using it.
Sell on as that's how your posts come across. Sorry, but they really do and they don't have to. There are many dealers who are on these boards and they aren't selling like you seem to do (off the board I've spoken with others who feel the same way I do, but they don't post and before you ask, only a couple own Vandersteen's or Ayre or Basis or any other gear that I love. I actually told one to go to the local store here to audition the 9h's as he's in this price range.).
Overall it's the best effort by Paradigm and if it wasn't for Vandersteen's, I'd have brought a pair home to see how it worked in my room even though my wife hates how they look (she want's zero drivers to ever show), but it's still kind of my room, lol. |
I agree that we all hear differently and like different speakers and amps etc... That's a given. I too have heard tons of the speakers spoken about on the boards and personally have my favorites (not only Vandersteen's as some think, lol). I was one of the first in the US to hear the 9H's (at Bernie's in Newington). They weren't burned in as it was the first stop of their US tour. I then heard them again a few other times now as many are starting to carry them.
They are nice, but for ME don't compete with a few of the speakers I like that cost a bit less, so they wouldn't be a starter. I have heard them burned in and set up properly in a good room etc... When folks ask me what speakers they should go listen to, they are on my list as there will be some who love the sound of them. I'd own them over some of the big name speakers that are in this range and above, but there I PERSONALLY don't see them as punching above their price range. Again, that's my personal view and there are many who feel that way. Conversely, I've spoken to a few who love them and may purchase them. I guess that's why I like the net as I can speak with others offline about our hobby and it helps me keep an open mind on components.
We all are passionate over some specific brands. Some, because they sell them and make a living at it. That doesn't mean they don't truly love what they are selling. I am one of those who doesn't listen to sales folks IRT how anything sounds. Never have and that's why I go listen to as much gear as I can. That doesn't mean I won't start with what a dealer will say, but I can't tell you how many folks I see in stores being led around like lemmings by a sales person in auditions.
With that said, it doesn't matter as long as people are happy with their decisions, but based on the used market, I don't think that's happening as much as it should, but that's just my opinion. I'm glad sales guys are on the board posting. Heck, I have learned a few things about my Ayre QX5/20 by a sales guy in Chicago and I've never met him. I've shared things with him that he didn't know and hopefully he's been able to use that info to help others when guiding them to purchases.
I think when sales people post on threads like this with strong opinions on what they are selling, there will be a large contingent who are skeptical and will call them out depending on how they purse their responses. I do know of a few dealers who use shills to help them sell and it's too bad. Some of us post about favorite dealers we know and use. I post often about Rutan in NJ, but I love Mike at Suncoast in Sarasota and I have done business with Ralph at Take 5 in New Haven since opened in 78. I love Bruce at Stereo Unlimited in SD and few can set up a system like Joe Heusi in Houston. There are many more I like and respect and will send folks to for auditions. Only two of the ones I mention even post on boards and when they do, there usually isn't a firestorm like this thread has become. Just an observation and neither negative nor positive.
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Troy, I understand your point. Yes, Matt loves the Davinci as well he should. We each know how the other hears and speak often as you know. He has great things to say about you guys. I know that who ever his sales guy is went out of his way for him. Yes, any piece of gear will sound different in any system. Set up is critical as is the room. I"ve always said that. Your set up may be the best and I'ms sure you have spent a ton of money on the set up based on what you have posted. I'm not fighting with you or saying that the speaker isn't great. Yes, I love the Vandersteen sound when set up properly and not so much when it's not. I do know that I've always liked them in any of the rooms I"ve heard them so far and that's a lot of rooms. I was like that with Avalon back in the day, but couldn't afford them at the time. I'm picky as heck. If I have to add that much stuff to my listening room to make the speakers sound like I want them to, then I'm out. That's not a cut as many who can afford a 30k plus speaker can afford to redo their rooms. I don't have dedicated room, so the Paradigms just aren't for me. Again, not a cut at all.
I was pulled into this thread without knowing about it or wanting to know about it, so I have expressed my views. Will I come down to listen to your gear in your shop? If I have the time of course I will. The next stop in Jersey for me is Matt's and then to a reviewers home (can't turn down invites to hear gear that I may never get to hear). I love your passion for your store and your products, but to be frank (not trying to be a jerk), it just seems like you are pushing too hard. The number one point you make we TOTALLY agree on is that folks need a good dealer who they trust. They then need to LISTEN and not sit and talk during an audition (when I do this I really after the fact that the system never drew me into the music, so I talk). Then they need to trust their own ears and make the decisions they make. Again, I"m not trying to put anything you have or do down as I don't want to be that guy, even though it's hard sometimes when writing opinions. Thanks Troy. |
One things also stands out to me. Often when any of us talks about how great our gear is, we will talk about how great a reviewer thinks they are. Personally, I've known many reviewers over the years and some I respect and like. Even if my tastes are different than theirs, I get to know HOW they listen and can sift through that to figure out what my thoughts may be on the product.
What I like about the personal audio folks is that their reviewers will say what they paid for the product or if it was given to them for free or at a steep discount. That said of all the guys I know (many) who review there, they are as honest as the day is long. They will point out where the compromises were made by a dealer. They point out good and bad and let you make your choices based on that.
That used to be the way things were in the 70's. The Absolute Sound never had to run ads. You just paid and got a neat little 'magazine' every other month or so I think it was. Then all of a sudden other 'hi end' magazines came in and there were ads taken. You couldn't find really negative reviews at that point. Also, brands that didn't buy ads in various mags wouldn't get reviewed much of the time. Some reviewers care about the hobby as well as the customers. Fremer comes to mind as do a few others.
One of the reviewers, Tom Gillet used to drive me nuts. He's a creative writers, but he also is the Audio Cheapskate, Sam Tellig (Gillet spelled backwards). I laughed when he left Stereophile a couple of years ago and went public about how advertisers would pay for ads and they could get good reviews. Again, not ALL reviewers are like that, but this is why you never see a bad review in that magazine or any of it's online sites. Heck the ad manager of Stereophile is/was Atkinson's wife.
Again, some folks I personally like and respect, buy all too many I don't, but that's just me. Reading this thread made me think about that.
This is why it's so important to go audition at a few places an figure out your flavor. What do you like? Dont' let a dealer talk during the audition constantly. Listen and trust your own ears. Afterwards, you can invite the dealer in and get their thoughts. Listen with them and have them point out all the things they love about the product and why you should buy it. Just keep in mind that you are the one who has to listen to it daily, lol. I'm sure everyone already knows all of this, but it never hurts to read it again. |
Pass are excellent amps. As for using digital or analog to EQ, I'm in the camp of analog still being much better. I've personally heard some of the top brands that use DSP in one form or another and I don't like it. I do hear the difference and it changes the sound and ruins coherency. I'm not the only one who feels that way. I've spoken to dealers, manufactures as well as reviewers who also feel that digital EQ still isn't where it needs to be. Kind of like the way it's taken digital formats to sound close to vinyl.
I moved up from Treo's to Quatro's due to wanting the bass EQ. I have noticed a huge difference in my room with the EQ.
I personally (I've done this) go audition the speakers you like and go with them. When I audition, I totally tune out the salesperson. I ask them not to speak during my auditioning and to give me the remote. Too often they will play with the volume during the audition. I've seen that at MANY dealers and it pisses me off.
You seem to have a really nice rig going. I love the Aesthetix pre amps. Just a great value in tubes. I owned their phono stage when I was able to play vinyl.
My feelings on the Persona's haven't changed. I've auditioned them at many stores now and they have always sounded the same to my ears. They, like other Paradigm's are tipped up on top. I own a pair as I"ve said many times. They lack coherency. Every dealer always says 'you haven't heard them in my store and my set up is the best". I went to Dave's and they sounded that same to me as they have elsewhere. Folks can always say things aren't set up properly for whatever reason they want, but in the end, I've found that gear has a sound signature no matter the set up. Many folks love a highly dynamic speaker like Wilson or the Paradigm's and that's awesome. I say go get them and enjoy your music as that's the only thing that matters anyways.
If you love the Paradigm's, then go for it and enjoy them, but make sure you listen to others in your range. JMHO |
Great post geek. It's all physics and making sure your room sounds decent. Then it's personal taste. |
Definitely not as forward. |
