Auditioned Magico A3 - VERY DARK...

I know this is an old post but I heard the Magico A3 for the first time last week and I absolutely agree with the OP....very very dark tonally,...on an absolute basis way too much bass, although that bass was tuneful actually and articulate it was WAY to high in level, so much so that it pretty much obliterated what might be going on farther up the frequency spectrum. This was on classical music. And yes I attend 2-4 concerts monthly of the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra and even though they play in a relatively dead over damped hall that sound is NOTHING like the A3’s. Amplification was Constellation, pretty highly regarded. Pretty shocked at this actually because I had high hopes. Never was a speaker ruled out so quickly. My reference system at present is pass amplification, Aesthetix preamps, PS Audio Directstream DAC and I’m 61 and over the decades I’ve had ARC gear, Soundlabs(1) (the smallish "Pristines"), Magnepans, Acoustats, BAT amps, etc etc, which is all to say I’ve heard ALOT and this is just tonally DARK, waaaay so.  @haloman, the S5 is a different best altogether, especially the Mk I.  The S5 Mk I (which I havent' heard but I'm depending on the opinion of my dealer who showed me the A3) was the real home run of the S series in particular but at least according to my dealer they shelved down the tweeter level in the Mark II and now, while no where near as dark as the A3, its considerably darker than your Mk I's.  Of course that was in response to some feedback that the Mark I's were too hot on the top apparently.  So I'm well aware that there is a subjective element to all of this but occasionally you get into the realm of differences that are so profound they are beyond "preferences" and I would put this dark, bass heavy characteristic of the A3 on classical music in that category. 

Yes, it may take 25 to 30k in gear to make a 10k speaker sing, The higher the resolution the more you will need to spend.I like dark sounding. Which my speakers are not and nowhere near the price of the magico's.

Late to this interesting thread as I only just read it.

I am the owner of the Audia Flight Strumento No 1 pre and No 4 power amp, both MK2 versions with the Magico S5MK1.

Firstly, I am not normally in the business of defending my system on a public forum, especially when you have the faith in letting others listen to it and then read their opinion on how bad it sounded.

My system does suffer from a over dampened room. It is not cold, small and dull as stated. Dark I would agree with though.

I also own a Supratek Cabernet and think they are fantastic for the money and do portray a larger sound. Is it better then the Audia Flight Strumento, not for my ears. The AF is more linear in the sound and is very refined with a much lower noise floor. The Supratek adds colour and in doing so, provides a rich midrange (which I really like) and a nice big spacious sound that I have often heard with valves.

I like both preamps for different reasons but overall much prefer the Audia Flight Strumento No1 MK2. Just matches the amplifier better in terms of gain and is a more accurate conduit to the music, plus it has all the modern features like remote, HT bypass, gain offsets and a really nice volume control.

As to Magico’s being dark and soulless, cant accept the later as it will portray whatever you feed it and can be rich and warm or lean depending on the gear. Dark I can understand in that it doesn’t have an overly prominent top end, very balanced I would say. I’ve had speakers with the extra sizzle up top and whilst they can bring out a bit more micro detail, I find them fatiguing in the long run.

These are measurements taken at the anechoic chamber at the Harman research center that I believe floyd toole uses for his research/books.

Nice, how did you get these measurements?

Both Magico and Ravel measurements are exemplary. The Persona is a trainwreck. I am surprise that Paradigm, which typically produce solid engineered products will build such a turd.

If you think A3s are too dark, you probably are not as sensitive to high frequencies. They aren’t actually a dark speaker, as you can see from the anechoic ANSI/CEA 2034 measurements of the Magico A3, the listening window includes measurements from 15 and 30 degree of axis, and the treble only slightly decreases.  The sound power is slightly dark with the A3 yes but if you are listening way off axis you probably want a wide dispersion design with a waveguide like the Revel F228BE.

If you find the listening window response too dark then you could probably look at the Paradigm Persona 3F, they are quite the opposite and have a rising treble response and will probably have the highs you are looking for.  

https://i.imgur.com/hiGeBXK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/slYBQbo.jpg

https://imgur.com/R3prT8T

I've owned a pair of A3's since they arrived in Canada in May 2018. I ude them (wit a Rel sub) and a Pass Lbs 30.5 Class A amp. No need for uber-power , believe me.
Use a dcs DeBussy as pre-amp/dac and I m thrilled with the resulting sound.

"Magico’s want very high bandwidth, highly resolving, Transparent devices in front of them. They want it clean and linear with some natural warmth or they will pout and stomp their feet and make a scene."
Well that is exactly how I would describe the Supratek preamp.Indeed you can buy Supratek preamps that are utterly neutral  with no obvious tube character at all.They just sound very clear and open.My 300B one does have some tube character but as you say sometimes you need that bit of warmth. That does not mean it is not extremely transparent.

Get the Magico M3 or M6. They are lightyears better than the A3.

Supratek Cabernet preamp or the Audio Flight Strumento preamp -

don’t plug one of these things in front a Magico speaker. It’s like drowning your NY Strip in ketchup and asking to speak to the chef because you think he seasoned or cooked your steak wrong. No disrespect but come on man.... and I really like ketchup.

Magico’s are a very low distortion, sealed box design that are as transparent a speaker as has ever been made by anyone. Dark, bright, dull, vibrant, cool, laid back or in your face are all super easy to get out of Magico speakers.

Come on over and we can get them to sound like each of these and quite simply. Plug in a rolled off, veiled, slow, stumbling, bumbling tube preamp in and bam..wow those Magico speakers are boring...

Not hard to do. This is audiogon pretty sure we all know this...

They will spit out what you put in. Super simple...

Tubes suck anyways, I was tube head for years and they are fine for Harbeth, Splender, Devore or the like if that is what you like or unless you spend crazy money for the top end tube stuff. Nothing wrong with that but these are different animals.

The way the modern Vitus, Pass Labs, Ayre, Simaudio, GamuT, Dan DA’gostino sound there is no need for tubes with Magico’s.

Certainly not a Supratek Cabernet (vomit in my mouth) preamp...lol

Magico’s want very high bandwidth, highly resolving, Transparent devices in front of them. They want it clean and linear with some natural warmth or they will pout and stomp their feet and make a scene.

They are like magnifying glasses and will highlight whatever you give them and to the enth degree and if only or mostly uncolored music is there to magnify they will blow your mind but they are ruthlessly revealing and grumpy monsters that chew on weak links like bubble gum and until find it and root it out it will foul up it all up and non Magico folk will blame the speakers when all they are doing is magnifying that week link.

You change out the ac power cable to your dac and the whole system changes and its like - um - awe these are stickily, prickly buggers but worth the work and effort because you can clearly hear as you get closer and closer - they let you know clear as day...

They are not for the faint of heart or by any means simple partners.

They will keep you honest and make you be on the ball. Don’t roll with some half ass source either or your just asking for it.

Get it right and I put them against anything, anywhere. Get them wrong and well those Harbeth or Devore’s sound mighty nice.

I’m working with Josh at Mark Walker to get my Magico S5 MK II’s in a few weeks and can’t wait.

You don’t need to go to crazy money wise either with but you must make, good sound choices. Yes Vitus and DA’gostino gear can get pricey.

Get the most powerful Pass Labs .8 amp you can afford and a good quality used Pass Labs, Simaudio, ARC Ref or Ayre preamp, Bricasti or Berkeley digital and some real good quality copper cabling and your in.

Role with much lesser gear and your asking for it. You need to go big money if you must have tubes. Tubes can be great with Magico but you need to go real steep money for tubes where you can get reasonable money ss and still get there...

folkfreak919 posts08-15-2018 12:01amPlease review my system for good results combining Q3s with VTL and ARC. Very high powered tubes work excellently with the Q series

Thanks for sharing your system FF.  Truly impressive, and great photography too.  A bright spot in an otherwise dark thread.

@melbguyone don’t use the triode mode ever! Super syrupy and gloopy, avoid at all costs!

@folkfreak That doesn’t surprise me, the Q3’s are only a moderate load @90db. If you can run the mono’s on the lowest damping setting & in Triode mode with ease, that sounds like a perfect match 😎. Now back to normal programming...something about the Magico A3’s? 😋.

I actually find the Q3s work best at the lowest damping factor. But you have the higher settings if needed

@folkfreak Yes the VTL’s adjustable damping factor is a cool feature, however according to VTL increasing the damping factor to high settings is a double edged scord as it has a detrimental affect on the sound and also produces a less natural sound. There is no doubt however their flagship models are brilliantly designed. The Siegfried Series II mono’s are just about perfect if you like neutral reference-type amps, though bloody expensive! But as you noted, the MB450 III mono’s have plenty of power to drive your Q3’s being a bit more sensitive than the S5 Mk2’s.

@melbguyone one thing that helps the VTL MB450III work well with the Magicos is the adjustable damping factor and input sensitivity.

I did at one stage try running my prior set (V3s) with a low power (50W) tube integrated that my dealer swore by but this was a complete non starter in my estimation. Count me as someone who really believes that gobs of power help, despite the quite high sensitivity (90dB) of the Q3s, amusingly Magico themselves have a 30W minimum power rating for the Q3 🤭

"Maybe that’s one reason Magico sounds bad most of the time" - I can’t quite agree with that view. My experience auditioning various Magico speakers over the years has been quite the opposite. That’s not to say every Magico speaker i’ve auditioned has sounded good on a given day. Issues like system synergy and speaker hours have been mitigating factors on a couple of occasions.

The best amps i’ve heard for synergy with Magico are Vitus, Boulder (latest series), Absolare & Soulution (latest series). Though I could also see CH Precision pairing well. In fact Magico LLC are now using CH gear in their listening room.

Thanks for posting the link to your room. I’ll check that out properly tomorrow if I get a chance. I like the VTL amps. If I ever come across a stonking deal on a pair of 2nd hand Siegfried Series II mono’s & a TL6.5 Series II pre, I could be sorely tempted.

Maybe that’s one reason Magico sounds bad most of the time. I heard them with several VAC amps and truly bad sounding with a Jadis amp.  Many tube amps used to drive them instead of solid state.  Maybe underpowered even for the smaller speakers, like B&Ws that crave power.

@fleschler Few tube amps provide the low impedance stability to propertly drive Magico’s less efficient models. Anecdotally Magico has good synergy with the flagship CAT mono’s, CJ Art 300 Anniversary mono’s & the new Absolare Signature hybrid mono’s. I could also see the bigger VTL mono’s such as the MB-450 Series III used by @folkfreak and Siegfried Series II being an excellent match.

Please review my system for good results combining Q3s with VTL and ARC. Very high powered tubes work excellently with the Q series
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5707

Has anyone heard Magico speakers sound great with VAC, VTL, Ayon, Conrad Johnson, BAT or Pass amps?  Comments concerning how wonderful they sound have recently only documented only a few brands in the past week.

@jtgofish Those mark up rates are what Raidho would quote, not reputable brands like Vitus, Magico or Audia Flight, lol! Now hopefully you will honour your promise to shut up and allow this thread to get back on track.......

Just one more thing then I will shut -up.The Supratek Cabernet preamp and the Audio Flight Strumento preamp are really in the same approximate price category.Just that you can buy the Supratek at wholesale price direct from the maker and thereby  avoid having to pay both a distributors mark-up and the typical retail mark-up which for high end products multiplies the final cost by of a factor of 2-3 times so that equates pretty closely to the $22000 Australian retail [the price of the Strumento pre] if it was marketed in the same manner.Of course you would have to be pretty silly to pay the full retail price for the Strumento preamp anyway so the difference in real price is probably more like double than triple.

Im using a TW Acustic RPS100 Phono stage which is far superior to any Supratek phono of this I'm sure.It uses 4 tubes and has a separate power supply which is solid state.I listen to vinyl a great deal with my TW Acustic AC 1 turntable with TW 10.5 tonearm Transfiguration Proteus cartridge.

@jtgofish I can’t agree with your comments sorry. They just fly in the face of the my own experience and the vast majority of commentary on Magico, Vitus and Audia Flight gear, all of which i’m very familiar with. Let’s just leave it at that.

Yes I agree with that description of the Magico S5s in general terms.Indeed that is how my brother's sound although he now uses high end Accuphase preamps and power amps which seem to sound more vibrant and open than the Vitus which he previously owned.Not that the Vitus sounded bad.
However the Magicos can sound a bit dull, constricted and box-bound too.Which is how many people seem to hear them.They are speakers that do divide opinions but suspect that is purely due to pre/power amp combinations that do not allow them to reveal their best.
In the AF system I heard that is how they sounded.Indeed the owner was blaming the room for the overall dullness but we tried the Usher preamp and that did not sound dull .So on another occasion we inserted the Supratek and the improvement was not slight -it was massive.Another listener described the difference very well by walking up to the speakers and using his arms to demonstrate the sound struggling to break free from the speaker fronts and sounding small and constricted with the Audio flight and then by stretching them out wide how the Supratek  by comparison completely filled the room with sound.As I said you had to be there to believe how massive the difference was and I was not the only one to hear it.
Just because a preamp and power amp is from the same maker does not guarantee they will synergise well together.You never can really tell what preamp is going to sound best with what power amp.Indeed that Usher preamp we tried does not sound very good with the matching Usher power amp but does with the Audio Fight Strumento power amp.The Audio Flight Strumento preamp could very well sound very good with a totally different power amp .

@jtgofish I get what you were trying to convey, though I don’t think your comments about the Strumento No.1 preamp were fair or accurate. As EK himself clearly described, the preamp is in the same league as the No. 4 power amp. I get that tubes do 3D holography/dimensionality well, and offer pleasant 2nd order harmonics, warmth and sweetness. And I get some some folks prefer that. But having auditioned the AF Strumento amps on several occasions, I can attest it is really nice kit and good value imho. So I understand why ebm is stoked.

I also think your description of the Magico S5’s sound was inaccurate. To me, the S5 Mk1’s are on the warm side, throw a broad sound stage & are a bit laid back in presentation compared to the Q3’s for example, whilst having more lively bass. Alan Sircom in his review of the S5’s described the top end as "extended, airy treble with absolutely no sense of sharpness or ringing". And the Strumento amps aren’t dark sounding (like the Vitus RI-100), so I don’t see that correlation. But we can agree the Supratek’s presentation would be very different. Better being in the eyes of the beholder.

Well yes I agree in absolute terms the Magico S5s do not sound especially dark,cold,small and dull.My brother owns a pair so I know them well.That was a bit unfair.They are very good speakers.
What I meant was that by comparison with  the sound when the Supratek was inserted they sounded dark,cold,small and dull [within the context of that system] So I meant it in relative terms and perhaps the term constricted would have been a better term to use.

@ebm Yes Jtgofish owns a Supratek Cabernet 300b preamp. And given that was his second post in this thread insisting his preamp is far superior to the Audio Fliight Strumento No.1, some bias can be implied. As to the member’s claim “The preamp is simply not in the same league and the power amp deserves something better, which is pretty much what EK said when he reviewed them”, all EK eluded to in his review was that he thought the No.4 amp was the star of the show when he said “In fact I’ve reviewed some very heavy hitters well above $50K for our domestic print magazines and the Strumento N° 4 in particular would not be embarrassed by any in terms of either musical merit or construction quality“. EK further noted “Rest assured that these components are truly superb sonic performers built to spectacular standards on par with the very best”, concluding “Here at the Kramer’s ‘Mountain Retreat’ they will be missed. Forza Italia!”

Look at his earlier post when he claimed Magico S5’s sound “dark,cold ,small and dull sounding“ with AF Strumento amps, until of course his Supratek Cabernet preamp was inserted, transforming the S5’s into “huge,open,dynamic and vibrant“ sounding. Firstly, I owned S5 Mk1’s and now Mk2’s, and neither speaker sounds “dark, cold ,small and dull sounding“. That is complete rubbish, lol! 😂.

The last Supratek Cabernet 300b preamp I saw for sale on Stereonet <1yr ago was going for $3,200AUD in good shape. The AF No.1 linestage is $22,900AUD msrp. The Supratek preamp might be a “bargain”, but there are limits. Supratek is an Australian preamp, so some members on SNA get a bit over-zealous about them. Now I have to back to listening to my “dark and a bit congested” sounding S5 Mk2’s 😆.

Well if you like your AF preamp then that is all that is important.I can see why some people would like them because they sound very composed, smooth and refined.We do not all hear or listen the same.I much prefer the more open, 3D.vivid,dynamic and free sound of the Supratek however because to me that is how real music sounds. To me by comparison the Strumento preamp sounds like the sound is really struggling to get free of the boxes.Yes I have owned a Supratek Cabernet preamp for about ten years.A lot of other components including other preamps have come and gone but that has always stayed.

Do you have a Supratek if so good luck.I am more than happy with my preamp so your advice is not needed.What makes you the expert on synergy.I have had ARC,CJ,and VAC in my system the preamp sounds wonderful.What is your system as you are the expert.Thanks again

Well I think the Strumento #4 power amp is superb but the preamp is simply not in the same league and the power amp deserves something much better.Which is pretty much what Edgar Kramer said [if you read between the lines] when he reviewed them.Of course Edgar Kramer uses a Supratek preamp.I have a  friend with the Strumento pre and power amps.He also owns an Usher preamp which I think sounds much better than the Strumento preamp too-ceratinly much more open and vibrant.
It is probably just one of those freakish synergies that do exist in audio where for some reason a few components just combine fantastically together and in this case the Supratek preamp seems to unlock the potential of the other components.You would have to hear it to believe it .

Wonderful set up bless you.Enjoy!!

Congrats @ebm , that’s a very nice setup you’ve got there. I could see the warm sounding AF amps being a good match with the very neutral/linear Q3’s 👍 . I’m a happy camper running Vitus Signature series gear with my S5 Mk2’s. There is a slight similarity in that both amps use UI-core transformers.

jtgofish,I have Magico Q3s with Strumento #1 preamp and Strumento #4 mk2 amp it is truly a great musical(not dark)and dynamic combination.I had CJ ET5 and this Strumento #1 preamp is in another league.I am getting wonderful sound beyond my wildest dreams.Thanks for your response enjoy!!

Yes the Magicos can sound a bit dark and a bit congested.What they need is a really special sounding preamp.I have heard a Supratek Cabernet 300B preamp inserted into a very expensive  system using Magico S5s and Audia Flight Strumento preamps and power amps and the Supratek completely transformed the sound.Like a completely different system.From a bit dark,cold ,small and dull sounding to huge,open,dynamic and vibrant.I would have never believed a preamp could make so much difference.

@soundsrealaudio, You know I was ambivalent as to whether to bother writing up my review of the A3’s because of how much time and effort I knew it would take to it to do it right. But after reading your post, I will now prioritize posting up that review asap. Have a good day....

wcfeil

Your response, " buy a speaker that pleases you " is so absurd. What audio guy in their right mind would do that. Far more important to buy speakers that other people say are great. 

NGlazer;

Oooooooo;

Beautiful selection of equipment to go with Magico!

The PS Audio DAC with the speakers  should be a great match. Sweeten the sound a bit? Along with somewhat resolving ( lol)

Hows the bass & how big of Room?

I’d/We would love to see pics posted 

jeff

@soundsrealaudio, a/ Do you think discerning audiophiles are that gullible? b/ I note you're a Dealer and didn't post a disclaimer.

That is a very interesting coupling.  The VTL pre and Krell amp are very neutral sounding equipment.  The speaker is supposed to be neutral sounding as well.  It would be interesting to hear.

I took delivery of my A3's about 10 days ago and they are breaking in nicely. Last description I would ever use is "dark," at least with my setup. I find them lively, transparent, natural and with deep, taut bass. A little thin up on top but this is abating daily. In short, I am very happy with them. In fact, after 45+ years in this hobby/mania/obsession, I would call them one of the greatest bargains in audio history. Given demand and aluminum tariffs, I cannot see how they will stay at $9800/pr. much longer.
Rig: Krell FPB 300 cx amp dfriving Audience AU 24SX speaker cables; VTL 7.5iii pre; Bryston BDP-1 digital transport feeding PS Audio Directstream DAC; Sansui TX1 Tuner (yes, some of us still listen to radio).
Neal