Best practices when conducting a DAC comparison

Since the question will be asked:

Denafrips Terminator

Schiit Yggdrasil (my current primary DAC)

Exogal Comet Plus

and if I have the time and energy an Oppo 105 and a Wadia 121.

@shadorne Thank you. I have a preamp that will allow for that and I will be using Roon / Tidal.

What I don’t have is the extra isolation platform and footers so that variable is equal.

I’ll do my best to keep levels matched. I know it’s tricky.

I'll also have to get an extra set of matched interconnects.

@willemj   Thank you for your response.

My methodology will not be that rigorous, but I understand and appreciate the points you are making. I'll try to do my best.

I recently compared 6 USB cables and yes, it isn't easy. But I learned a lot, despite the difficulty and tediousness of the process.

@toddverrone

The thing is, getting to know an audio system takes time.

Agreed.

I'm planning to take my time, especially with the newest component.

The A / B comparisons will be at the very end of the process.

@gdhal 

I have read and kept up with your thread. I also posted a few times.

Luckily, I don't have to worry about the return window since I purchased outright because I believe in what @toddverrone mentions in his post. I do not want to rush this. 

Thank you for the detailed response and guidance. Since you recently went through this, the list of all the steps you took is terrific and very helpful.

I'm not sure about the cold start one for me, but I understand why you did it when you explained it on your thread.

@willemj 

My methodology will (likely) not be at a level where you would consider it to be valid. If my business depended on such matters, I'd be much more thorough and particular.

So white coat it will not be. Perhaps somewhere between white coat and cigar jacket. : )

@audioengr 

Steve, great points across the board. I'll do my best to check off each one. Thank you!

The Denafrips Terminator was delivered early yesterday morning and went in system yesterday afternoon.

I've ordered the Gen 5 USB board from Schiit and will be doing the install myself.

@gdhal  I'm not sure I understand your question. Yes, the Gen 5 board upgrade applies to all three Schiit DACs you list.

My Yggdrasil is about 2 years old and has the Gen 3 board in it. I've been holding off on the upgrade until I had another DAC on hand.

@rbstehno Thank you for your response.

Some differences: the Denafrips offers DSD; higher resolutions of PCM; Over Sampling; three I2S inputs, and an extra set of Coax, TOSLink, AES each, but no BNC --- over the Yggdrasil.

Unfortunately, probably fortunately for some : ) MQA is not an option for either DAC at this time. It would have been a nice feature to have.

@randy-11 I’ll be installing the Gen 5 USB board which does offer galvanic isolation for the Yggdrasil. I believe there is galvanic isolation built into the Denafrips (but I need to double check this). For now, optical isolation is off the table; I am aware of the benefits.

@steakster  Agreed! They definitely make a difference, including the upgraded DC cables. I've been running HDPlex to power the switch, server, etc. for quite some time now. I'll probably play around with different brands once the major components are finalized.

@gdhal 

Got it. No, I don't want to mess with Mr. Zhao's flagship work!. : )

My main output is USB from a Sonore Signature Rendu SE.

I'll primarily be focused on comparing the USB input between all DACs.

@muzikmann  Yes, especially the Terminator. The manufacturer advises 300-500 hours; and yes I know how some feel about this. : )

As @toddverrone mentions in his post, spending time with the components will also help accomplish this.

I will start with the critical listening for the Terminator towards the end of November. I'll energize and run signal through it 24/7 until that time.

I'll also keep the Yggy and the Comet energized. 

Thanks, Todd. I think you will appreciate what follows.

My main concern is that my current system has been (mostly) optimized with the Schiit Yggdrasil within it. I struggle with this very issue in the comparisons and component evaluations I read, whether professionally done or owner based.

I’m especially concerned about cabling.

I recently completed a USB cable comparison. It was difficult yet very educational. I’m well aware that the cable I found to perform best to my preferences and goals may not match as well or deliver the same outcome with the Denafrips DAC (again to my preferences).

For example, I chose the Cardas Clear Reflection XLR ICs for my headphone system. They are performing very well in the 2ch system, but the choice was made for a different application and goals. Would another brand of cable or moving up the Cardas line-up be a better fit for my 2ch system, with the Yggdrasil in it? For me, the answer is likely.

The ’million’ dollar question (for me):

........ is using the same cabling across the different DACs the best way forward?

OR

........ is it better to compare optimized systems, with the components standing on their own within them?

I believe the second approach has a greater degree of fairness in terms of determining endpoint differences and performance preferences. It, of course, is not nearly as practical or financially feasible.

[Note: At a minimum optimizing around the power and signal cables in and out of the DAC is a somewhat more viable option]

I realize we have a number of Audiogoners who find none to minor differences between cabling. I respect this. Further, keeping the cables identical will make the process straightforward and much, much easier for me.

For those of you that do find cabling an important piece, I’d love to hear your approach to this. Thoughts? Thanks.

@aberyclark   Thanks for the tip on The Beatles 'Come Together' track. I'll give it a critical listen.

@gdhal   Thanks for your ongoing thoughts and advice.

@bigkidz   Is your 30 second test after break-in and when doing a quick A / B? Thanks.

@rbstehno  I agree. We are the ones living with our gear, usually for significant periods of time. These are very personal choices based on our experience and preferences and system synergy.

@dpetri  To date, to my knowledge there is only one major review of the Denafrips Terminator DAC that I purchased. I had made the decision to do so prior to the 6Moons review, but it came out approximately the same time I placed the order.

Certainly preferable would be a number of sources, owners and reviewers, to help with the choice. Good as a guide, especially if one finds their preferences line up with a reviewer's. But as @rbstehno  posted, ultimately it's our ears, and system, and room, etc. etc.

@dumacker  Thanks. I guess that is the crux of the issue: "Is there any better way to hear the difference?"

As a general update, I have two weeks of run time on the new DAC. I still need to install the Gen 5 board in the Yggdrasil and get it running as well. Everything is still on track for an evaluation between both towards the end of November.

Please add any other thoughts on the topic and approaches on how to best go about a DAC comparison. Thanks.

@bigkidz Thanks for your response and the details shared. I generally agree that if one doesn’t pick out differences immediately then it can be a toss up choice (having controlled and equalized the variables as best as possible).

I find this also applies to out of the box performance. If one can pick up differences at that initial point, then they become clearer as a component gets further run-in time on it. This has recently been the case with a couple of components.

I have also had the opposite experiences.

For example, I had to spend much more time A / B -ing to drill out and appreciate differences with a recent USB cable comparison. It was tough and time consuming but well worth it and very educational for me.

In some cases (where there were readily apparent differences upfront) elucidating whether they met my goals and preferences was a drawn out process. This happened with a recent speaker comparison.

I believe our level of listening experience and development of ’hearing’ expertise comes into play as well. Some may be much further along the spectrum, which would make elucidating the differences easier and quicker.

@georgehifi   Is there a 'cheater' way to get close enough? : )

I can do so, if you and others believe it is critically important.

@rbstehno   I have a long history of audio bricks as doorstops. : )

It would have been nice to have. In the end it wasn't a deal breaker for me.

@georgehifi  and @gdhal  Thanks for your thoughts on the level matching point you are making and are mainly in agreement on. 

@stfoth  I like the 'enjoyment' part of your assessment. Your primary suggestion on how to go about the evaluation is valid and has good company in that it has also been offered up (similarly) as an approach by a couple of others. 

First, thanks for the additional thoughts shared via the previous few posts.

Second, I will try to consolidate everyone’s suggestions on approach and put together a summary.

Third, the Denafrips Terminator is broken in and is performing very well. I’ll be swapping in the Schiit Yggdrasil to get some listening time with it (and the new Gen 5 USB board).

Fourth, a major UPDATE:

I thought I’d conduct the comparison over the Thanksgiving Holiday...but other priorities got in the way. I wish I had, because I now have a new element in the system. I’ve been waiting for a speaker delivery, which was planned and scheduled for before the Denafrips DAC was delivered. The speaker was delivered yesterday.

My original plan was to have the new speaker fully broken in as well as to have a significant amount of personal listening time with it. Since I plan to keep the new speaker (and the DAC that performs / has the best synergy with it) I think the best approach is conduct the DAC comparison once the speaker is broken in and I’m familiar with the new speaker.

Thoughts in agreement or contrary to this? If otherwise, I’m interested in how you would proceed? Thanks.

Thanks to everyone for your guidance and to the recent helpful posts from @seventies @audioengr  and @dlcockrum 

I've learned much from each poster.

I finished the comparison between the Schiit Yggdrasil and the Denafrips Terminator this morning. The comparison got held up for a number of reasons but all-in-all the delays, in retrospect, were actually helpful and made for a stronger and more robust evaluation.

First, I was able to get to a place where all the components were well broken in.

Second, I was able to spend significant time with my system and each of the 'newer' components and cabling and I now have a very good feel and sense for them. 

Third, though the comparison is Subjective, I was able to control many of the variables to level the playing field --- as much as I reasonably could; however, the review process will not meet bench level rigor.

Fourth, the added time has allowed me to think through and reflect on the process and what I'm looking to achieve much, much more thoroughly. 

Fifth, I was able to get another audiophile's perspective on where my system is 'performance wise' as well as getting feedback on shortcomings. I also wanted a second opinion on What I 'hear' and How I 'hear' and to discuss my audio preferences 'live' and based on my system. I've also had a number of phone discussions with audiophiles active on Audiogon to answer questions and bounce thoughts and approaches off of.

I will be writing up my findings and takeaways starting tomorrow and should be able to wrap it up over the next few days. Once it's finalized, I will post a link for those who may be interested and curious.

Hey guys, my write up is posted here:

http://terminatorandyggdrasil.blogspot.com/

And here:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/denafrips-terminator-and-schiit-yggdrasil-evaluation-and-comp...

This thread guided my approach, though it is not as rigorous as some suggested or how you might conduct your own evaluations.

The suggestions, however, certainly became part of the process and for that I am thankful and grateful to all who posted. I learned a lot through your feedback. Thank you.