DAC drops out when Furnace starts or stops. HELP

If the audio system, the furnace, and the water heater are all on the same AC phase, I believe there is a good chance the problem would be resolved if you were to have an electrician move the system's dedicated line(s) to the other phase (i.e., to a breaker on the other side of the panel).

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

I agree with Al, that's exactly what I was thinking.
If you are familiar with electrical wiring, it should be an easy task.

What are you using for a digital cable? Length?

Try a different digital cable.

Make sure it is at least a 1.5 meter long.
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good suggestions. Thanks. I will look into it tonight and report back with results.

Check the polarity of your kablivit pin.

OK, so I started by changing the digital cable (it was the easiest). I had been using an Audio Envy cable that I really like. Had it about one month. After inserting it into the system I had an occasional drop out but didn't think a lot about it. However as the cold nights came I started having more and more drop outs. Which lead me to tracking down the cause. Thus I discovered that it was the furnace and water heater making the disruption. Prior to the cold snap, it was only the turning on and off of the water heater that caused the drop out. But now with the furnace in the mix the drop out rate was increased signifigantally.
I replaced the AE cable with a Grover Huffman digital cable and last night experienced no drop outs.
The AE cable is only one meter while the GH cable is 1 1/2M.
Is it the length of the cable that could be the culprit or is it the design/construction differences?
Either way, thanks for the suggestions to get the gremlins out. I will also look into the service panel today to check the wiring as to which leg of the mains might be in common.

The AE cable is only one meter while the GH cable is 1 1/2M.
Is it the length of the cable that could be the culprit or is it the design/construction differences?
10-09-15: Jadedavid

Hopefully someone like Al, (Almarg), will chime in.

As for the AC power side of the equation when the furnace or hot water is turning on or off a transient spike is being sent out on the AC mains. Just guessing the transient causes a quick brief problem with the DAC or maybe even the transport. For some reason the AE digital cable is not capable of maintaining a good digital lock between the transport and the DAC. It's like the AE digital cable was just on the edge of maintaining the digital lock between the transport and the DAC before the transient spike event would happen causing the drop out.

Either way, thanks for the suggestions to get the gremlins out. I will also look into the service panel today to check the wiring as to which leg of the mains might be in common.
10-09-15: Jadedavid

You never said if the furnace or hot water heater are gas or electric.
If electric my guess is they are fed by single phase 240Vac.

Length of the cable might or might not add to the problem.
Longer cable allows to avoid first reflection adding/modifying shape of original transition (many factors involved). You GH cable might work better because of length or because of better characteristic impedance match. Most likely it is just a better shielding.

Good call on the cable, Jim (Jea48). I would not have guessed that. And your explanation sounds very plausible. I agree with Kijanki's comments as well.

Jadedavid, the reason that a length of 1.5 meters is often recommended for digital cables is further explained in this paper. It relates to the potential effects on jitter (short term fluctuations) in the timing of D/A conversion, that may result from the inevitably less than perfect impedance matches between the cable and the components that are being connected.

As Kijanki indicated, though, and as can be inferred from the paper, many system dependent variables factor into the likelihood of that length being optimal. A notable one being the risetimes and falltimes of the signal that is sent into the cable (i.e., the amount of time for the signal to transition between its lower and higher voltage states, and vice versa), which are generally unspecified and unknown. So while 1.5 meters may generally stand a greater chance of being optimal than 1 meter, that will not always be the case.

All of that relates to sound quality, though, and usually not to the kind of problem you have encountered. But I wouldn't be surprised if the characteristics of the shield relate to it, as Kijanki indicated. Given that two different appliances cause similar symptoms, though, my guess is that it is not differences in shielding against RFI pickup that are involved, but rather effects of the shield or other signal return conductor in the cable on a ground loop issue that may be occurring between the two components. A ground loop issue conceivably resulting in the marginal lock Jim referred to.

An interesting experiment, therefore, might be to temporarily put a cheater plug (a 3-prong to 2-prong adapter, with the safety ground connection not connected), on the power plug of either the DAC or the component that is providing the signal to it. That would break any ground loops between the two components. Then see if the problem still occurs with the shorter cable.

Regards,
-- Al

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Correction:

I said,

You never said if the furnace or hot water heater are gas or electric.
If electric my guess is they are fed by single phase 240Vac.
10-09-15: jea48

Every time my furnace or water heater (gas, power vented) kicks on or off my DAC drops out momentarily.
10-07-15: Jadedavid

Guess I missed that......
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Thanks to all for the suggestions and info. After listening again tonight I have had no drop outs with the 2nd digital cable in place.
However I think "Almarg" has hit on the root cause.
I have been constantly fighting a ground loop hum that I cannot cure.
I have tried cheater plugs on some/all pieces of equipment, plugging all the audio gear into one strip, isolation transformers ETC ETC.
I have come to the limits of my knowledge of finding the source of the imbalance.
Thanks for the ground/neutral info from "Cdrc".
I think it"s time to call in an electrician. Hopefully I can find one who understands this type of problem.

I think it"s time to call in an electrician. Hopefully I can find one who understands this type of problem.

Your average electrician will not solve a ground loop problem.

Here is a white paper for you to read.

I have tried cheater plugs on some/all pieces of equipment, plugging all the audio gear into one strip, isolation transformers ETC ETC.

What equipment in your system uses the AC power mains safety equipment ground? (Check all audio equipment with an IEC power connector for the safety equipment ground pin/blade. If only 2 blades the equipment ground is not used on the equipment.)

Are you sure you are hearing a hum or could it be a low level buzz?

It would help if you listed your equipment, ICs, speaker cables, and any after market power cords you are using.

By chance do you have a TV with CATV or a Dish connected to the system?
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FYI, I have found no correlation between length of USB cable (1m vs. 1.5m) and performance across brands. You are not assured superior quality/performance from a supposedly ideal 1.5m USB versus another brand 1m. It is also relatively easy to find a 2m USB which will outperform any given 1m or 1.5m alternate brand.

I have a few times found that 1m sounded better of the same brand than 1.5. So, you can say I'm not a believer in the idea that 1.5 is somehow magical for sound quality of USB.

Douglas_schroeder,

I use a 2 meter digital coax cable myself. I don't think anyone here said a 1.5M was the magic length.

I think Al, (Almarg), and Kijanki offered a more technical reasoning why the digital cable made the difference and the fact that Jadedavid solved his dropout problem using a different digital cable tells others that are experiencing dropouts caused by the switching on or off of an AC mains load/s it might save them a lot of time to just change out the digital cable instead of spending maybe hours looking for an AC mains problem that may not be their problem at all. It might just be the digital cable. In the end that's all that matters.
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Jea48, Yes, I understand the flow of the conversation.

I was simply following up on Al's side comment about cable length. i.e. If someone has a choice between a 1.5m and 2m USB if possible one should try them, as opposed to thinking that the theorized ideal length cable would automatically be superior. I do, however, favor a shorter USB when I can obtain it.

I also have seen one or two instances in which a particular USB cable worked with some gear and not others. So, it is wise when experiencing a snafu with digital to consider that the USB cable may be incompatible with a particular component.

Doug, I should clarify my earlier comments about digital cable length by adding that they only pertain to electrical (non-optical) S/PDIF and AES/EBU cables. My comments don't apply to USB cables, in part because the risetimes and falltimes of USB signals are vastly different than those of S/PDIF and AES/EBU signals. As I had mentioned, and as further explained in the paper I linked to, signal risetimes and falltimes are key variables affecting what length will be optimal.

Also, I'll add that if a very short length is practicable, such as perhaps 8 inches or so, that can be expected to often be as good or better a choice for S/PDIF and AES/EBU than 1.5 or 2 meters. It is the intermediate lengths, such as 1 meter, which (depending on a complex and essentially unpredictable set of component-dependent variables), stand a somewhat lesser chance of being optimal than those other choices.

Regards,
-- Al

Amazing I had the same problem with my old dac and cd player I never found out what the problem was My new set up does not do it ??? Good Luck.

Follow up to this thread.

I later contacted the OP, through the Agon message system, with a question about the problem he had with drop outs. I asked him if he was still using the same 1.5M Grover Huffman digital cable. He responded no he had bought a new 1M Grover Huffman digital cable and was not experiencing any drop out problems with the 1M Grover Huffman cable.

Conclusion? Not all S/PDIF 75 ohm digital coaxial cables are created equal.
Was it the RCA connectors used? Do the ends used by Grover Huffman have a closer better 75 ohm characteristic than the ones used by Audio Envy?

Was it how the RCA connectors were connected to the coax cable?

Was it the 75 ohm coax cable Audio Envy used?

Or was it ???

Is it the length of the cable that could be the culprit or is it the design/construction differences?

Or was it ???

-The characteristic impedance of the cable. That is why length is immaterial.

If the characteristic impedance of the cable is incorrect, there will be reflections that cause errors. This can lead to an inability for the DAC to lock onto the signal. The right cable is all that's needed. Not all high end cable manufacturers understand this, so you see a lot of variance. One cable manufacturer that does get this right is Purist Audio.

Hope there are still audiophiles smarter than me still interested in commenting about dropouts because I ran into a similar problem for which I need help with when I introduced the Yggdrasil dac into my system running off a Grover Huffman digital cable (as recommended in this stream) connected to the digital out of my CD player.  I was hearing occasional dropouts which I subsequently was able, thru experimentation, to duplicate/induce by switching on or off a nearby fluorescent fixture or a clothes dryer in an adjacent room. Incandescent switches in the room have no affect. 
Not clear to me yet whether these components share a conmmom AC line.  I have tried several lesser cost different digital cables both coax and xlr with no difference. And, oh yes, the CD player need not be spinning. I can see the sample rate indicators on the Yggdrasil flashing off momentarily when I hit the fluorescent switch

EMF floats all around us all the time. IT may be an airborne pulse and not just the AC wiring.

I would suggest buying a better quality ballast for the fluorescent light. and check the tightness of the light switch connections.