@drrnc2 Were we just at the same get together???
Likewise, I also felt most happy with the current incarnation of Vinh's system. His speakers have sure come a long way since the early days, physically and sonically. Very impressive design!
That DENAFRIPS DAC looks like a real beast, with excellent sound. Yes, everyone agreed the vinyl presentation still won, but digital's come so far
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@drrnc2 Good to know. We talked a bit, with Adrian between us. My hair's not yet silver, I wore a navy blue sweater, and spent most of my time talking with him, Vinh, and Jens. Fun time, for sure. I'm left thinking about the Terminator.
By the way, the ribs were delicious!
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@bube, "I had a recent session at my place to show off the system I am bringing
to AXPONA (including the Terminator) and everyone seemed to like it."
+1. I was there, and echo what Vinh said, everyone seemed to like it. Speaking for myself, I sure did
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Along with Al, Doug, Rich, Rick, and of course, Vinh, I also attended yesterday's DENAFRIPS demo.
Vinh did an excellent job laying out how everything went. The cameraderie was fantastic, and I enjoyed one of the best audio get togethers in a long while. It felt like we were all longtime friends. I'll add a few things, and surely will some of the others. Maybe I'm wrong, and will get corrected here, but it seemed like we didn't diverge much, if at all, in our opinions. Quite the surprise, as unanimity happens rarely in this hobby.
As Vinh mentioned, the overriding theme became the excellent DENAFRIPS house sound. Outside of one outlier, the Venus, due to less break in than the other three, I found the distance between the Ares, Pontus, and Terminator far less than what anyone, myself included, would have thought. Especially, in light of Dana's previous comments. Moving up each rung brought a subtle but discernible improvement in clarity, separation, refinement, and weight. What's a bit difficult for me to understand and explain is how small that difference was in light of everyone agreeing on the ultimate ranking. Really, what separates the $760 Ares from the $5000 Terminator requires effort from the listener (or, at least, me) to come to. That said, does the product line make more sense with three offerings instead of four?
Later, we also spent a bit of time with the Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ and a non-oversampling Metrum model from less than a decade ago. The latter saw itself easily outclassed by the rest of yesterday's participants, and having served as a more than adequate component during the time it was offered, shows how much the past decade has benefited digital music reproduction. The Mytek presented real competition for the products we listened to yesterday. I didn't pay deep enough attention to it, and we didn't A / B with the DENAFRIPS offerings while I was there to accurately rate it, but it surely held its own. The preamplifier, phono, filter options, and American assembly only add to its appeal.
As some have brought up, DENAFRIPS success in the North American market will reflect it investing in building the requisite infrastructure or not.
In the end, I feel a bit unsure about where to recommend a person getting in. The Ares is a straight up no brainer. For me, the question becomes, does it make more sense for one wanting to spend more to get more to consider one of the middle units, or step all the way up to the Terminator?
Look out AXPONA show goers, you're in for a real treat in Vinh's room! |
@jayctoy sounds like you're really enjoying yourself!
Would like to hear your impressions of how the Gumby sounded in the show system.
After things calm down from the show, maybe we can all share our impressions on the DENAFRIPS - sonics, price, and otherwise |
Glad to see this level of enthusiasm for Vinh's room, including the DENAFRIPS.
Now that there's some distance between the show, I'd like to hear more perspectives.
As for me, my opinion remains the four products slot far closer than one would expect or believe. As stated previously, I needed to work at distinguishing them, including the entry level Ares from the statement Terminator. You do get more from moving up the ladder: more solidity, more heft, more extension, more liquidity, more clarity. But the improvements were, for me, subtle, only identifiable in direct comparison, and even at that, requiring my full attention. It seemed to reflect what spending more time, effort, and funds on a power supply typically yields. And after thinking on this, I don't see the value of the four products, and wonder if there's any sense in combining the middle products into a single offering.
Finally, I'm not currently up on the SOTA digital, but the DENAFRIPS products certainly show me how much things have improved over the years. Still, to my ears, the sad conclusion is we're still not knocking on the door of what analog provides |
@drrnc2 I have found pretty much the opposite--the better the DAC (or perhaps any link in the chain) the better the marginal recording sounds.
Well said, Rich. During our get togethers at Vinh's that assertion held up. We listened to recordings of differing quality, and in every case, the better conduit sounded better.
@jayctoy You made a wise move with the Ares. Along the lines of the 4 products lining up so closely, the sub $700 one is the absolute no-brainer, and most obvious choice. One gives up very little, even to the Terminator. Of course, the chassis and overall aesthetic step forward as one moves up the ladder, if one considers those attributes critical |
Referring back to our auditions with the DENAFRIPS products at Vinh’s, I just wanted to summarize a few things:
The DENAFRIPS products, from the Ares all the way up to the Terminator are excellent sounding DACs. I believe at less than $700, the Ares represents tremendous value in the marketplace, and isn’t far from the Terminator; certainly not as far as one would expect. World beaters or game changers? I wouldn’t use those terms. In fact, in comparison with Vinh’s (incredible) vinyl rig, the Terminator did not come close. Would I consider one for purchase? Yes, absolutely. But do I consider them without peer? No.
At this point, DENAFRIPS has NO North American representation. Although Vinh has bent over backwards in helping the brand through efforts like our get togethers and featuring the products at AXPONA, he is not the importer / distributor, and from the time we spoke about it, considered it too big an undertaking for him at this point in his life. In other words, although Vinh is an exceptionally good man (I know that because he’s been a good friend of mine for 20 years), to the best of what I know today, he has no financial compensation in this whole thing. Thus he is not here to help anyone should they require it beyond what he provides through his own kindness and grace. Likewise, there is NO North American repair facility / personnel or product support.
I believe the establishment of a foothold in North America, or not, rests with the leadership of DENAFRIPS finding a capable entity to represent them in this market. If that does not happen, understand that if you consider purchasing the product, you essentially are on your own.
As of today and unless and until what I just mentioned changes, you buy a DENAFRIPS product, YOU assume the risk as well as the responsibility for dealing with the offshore based company if anything goes wrong from A - Z, from the transaction itself to day you or it goes away |
@dlcockrum thank you for your perspective, Dave. I do appreciate hearing feedback so I can consider and adjust.
I have no axe to grind, nor is this a situation of sour grapes. Those things are certainly NOT my intention. As this thread details, I’ve taken part in the DENAFRIPS evaluations, as Vinh and I go way back, and I’m fortunate enough for him to trust my opinion enough to include me in things like this, in addition to getting to spend time together.
I have a high enough level of confidence in the resolution and overall capabilities of Vinh’s system to know it didn’t blend the products into something that prevented us from providing an accurate assessment. Having heard other DACs and other front-ends during our times with the DENAFRIPS products bolsters that.
My opinion holds in that the DENAFRIPS lineup from top to represents a strong group of DACs. Again, not world beaters or game changers, listening to the Brooklyn DAC in the same setting showed that. But without question, worthy. In fact, the Ares is so strong and so close to the Terminator it’s a flat out screaming bargain and no-brainer. So it DEFINITELY wins my recommendation, as I’ve stated several times. Restating the house sound and lack of distance between the products, I do get confused when it comes to the middle two products. For me, it’s a question of the value of the lower cost one balanced by the improved aesthetic of the more expensive. The Terminator certainly represents a strong statement at the top of their line. I CONDITIONALLY recommend it, and have given it for myself consideration.
Now, comes the area we disagree...I’ve seen far too many instances of folks getting burned in the long run by BOTH domestic and foreign high-end audio and all manner of other industries, by spending good money on what they considered an excellent product at the time only to be left holding the bag in the end because the manufacturer, importer, or seller did not invest in any degree of infrastructure and end-user support. Using past as prologue, I have little tolerance when that happens in real time, and I call it out to ensure folks understand everything. Forewarned is forearmed.
Electronic components, audio and otherwise, break. When they do, the customer requires and deserves support. Though the world has shrunk exponentially, it still costs hundreds of dollars to ship a DAC between North America and either Singapore or China. In fact, a two way trip may exceed the cost of an Ares itself. That means, it’s now a paper weight. Unless a North American support entity rises up, eventually people who buy these products WILL find themselves getting burned in the end. That’s also why the Terminator gets only my conditional recommendation, for now.
In the end, I am actually rooting for the company. A lot of what lies behind this and my previous post is to spur the company on to doing this thing the right way. I like the product, and again, am considering a purchase. No doubt DENAFRIPS has generated sales of late, at least some directly from Vinh’s efforts. Does the temptation exist to not buy the cow when you get the milk for free? In other words, why not make a few bucks selling however many get sold direct, invest as little into the customer as possible, and get out when the output no longer exceeds the input? If so, I feel that’s short-sighted, and ultimately lose - lose
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@alvin1118 thank you for clarifying.
The terms fall in line with what the typically reputable company provides, and I believe that’s fair.
Coincidentally, just as you posted this, I followed the link you provided earlier in this thread to read through the terms. One benefit folks should consider is the TRANSFERABLE warranty.
Having shipped a lot from China and Singapore, I’ve found FedEX and DHL two of the better options, though FedEX costs a fair amount less. For those at home and for sake of convenience, I’m providing a few (3 shipping options exist, with delivery times listed as within 2 days of one another) rates to Singapore for packages ranging from 15 - 50 pounds, as I would think the DENAFRIPS products fit in somewhere close to that range. Interestingly enough, pricing did not change from both the East and West Coasts of USA - perhaps related to FedEX using their hub in TN regardless?
15 pounds: $267 - $357
25 pounds: $333 - $389
35 pounds: $486 - $592
50 pounds: $584 - $753
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@alvin1118 GREAT news on the US based service center!
Glad to see your building this thing the best possible way. Best of luck going forward!
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