Yep, I think we’ll all have enough fun. The guys who probably won’t be having fun are the ones left behind arguing about what they think distortion is. As far as digital, I loved it in the beginning and I love it now. A lot of folks who don't like digital for the most part haven't learned how to play it. mg |
Hi bdp24 "In 1974 the FMI 80 was a very good low-priced speaker, better than many much more expensive models from other companies. The same was true of the NAD 3020 integrated amp in the 1980's." I agree, 2 wonderful products. "but that's not why they sounded good" That statement is where you and I would disagree. Double the weight of either the 80 or 3020 and the soundstage will shrink, shift up and run into the speakers' locations. Michael Green |
Well, like I've been saying (as well as others here), it's happening whether there's a debate here or not. Simple passive acoustics, room correction (DSP), low mass amps and entry level speakers, inexpensive enough to make the audio cheapskate blush, are making their way into the audiophile mainstream way of thinking. None of this needs Agon membership approval. It's just a fact that simpler, happier audiophile days are here that is far more practical then what was preached years past. Many of you are putting together, past and now, systems that rival the big buck systems and that's good. The cool thing that I'm talking about is, your sharing your findings and that's what is needed. And, that's what's going to balance out this hobby and introduce new blood to the magic of in-room listening. Headphone and car listening are already there, more or less, but HEA has struggled to get to that comfort level it deserves. Room correction is now the norm, passive and electronic, that's a big step. Low mass is taking place, that's the most needed next step taking place. Low mass more gain. Michael Green |
Kosst, I have a question for you. How many of Nelson's amps have you owned? Many of us here are Nelson Pass fans (me included). I've owned quite a few of his designs and when reading your responses I ask myself how much experience does Kosst actually have with the equipment he makes comments about, like others here have questioned you. I have had success with A AB and D, mainly because I've learned what they do through listening. thanks Michael |
kosst says "Not really sure what Pass amps have to do with the general behavior of amps in general." My answer to that is everything since kosst uses them as his point of reference. So what he is saying is, he using Pass Labs as his reference yet he doesn't have any experience with Pass Labs past the one amp that he built? Speaking for myself, if I have a question for Nelson I'll speak with Nelson or use his products for my own evaluations. Saying .02% means nothing to me. For example, tonight I made sonic changes to a recording I'm playing. I spread out the stage more and gave more presence to the cymbals. As a result the bottom end became more real and in better pace with the midrange. Am I now suppose to describe this in distortion measurements, or claim that I can only do this with class AB or D or A? Fact is I can make these desired changes with any type of amp class. I can do this because I understand how systems play music and I have learned to tune them. No magic and no measurements, simple applied physics. mg |
For a point of reference I have Audio Note, Jolida and a few others, but the tube designer I've enjoyed listening to this last couple of years for amps and preamps is.... http://audolici.com/ Especially the A25-M and the AP-01. I mention these as a reference to what I use to ping pong back and forth with the Class D world. I also have outstanding relationships for borrowing equipment. Nice to live a few blocks from the CES. So I'm not that far from anything I want. One thing I will mention about class D is how one mates them with the rest of the system. I have heard class D sound thin with speakers that have more components in the crossover. Class D likes simple crossovers or in my case only one capacitor. As with any type of amp design using the best speaker type match is important. If folks put a class D amp into a system use to A or AB they might find themselves coming up short. Class D is a different animal and really cool design once you find the variables that fit, like with all things audio. MG |
And look at these Class D threads taking off, good for you guys! There's more, much more, but this is a good introduction to the paradigm shift that is taking place in playback for those who have not already made the move to low mass. It's interesting setting the components side by side, as in two different rooms, one room having the extremely expensive heavy system and the other room with low mass, high tech and low cost. mg also thanks for the emails |
Headphones of course are always in the equation. Most of the folks I know have all 4. Headphone, computer, theatre and in-room listening systems. Sometimes the theatre and listening are combined. Well now that I think about it they are all part of each other with more than one place for entertainment. Since Class D the look has changed dramatically as well the system function. The big amps in the middle of the room are gone. Not saying that area is empty just reorganized or the equipment is in another room. The younger generation is either looking at the soundstage or soundstage and video, not so much looking at the components. Michael |
Modern TV's are fairly easy to tune around, much easier than big amplifiers sitting in the room between the listener and the front wall. mg |
Even more emails have headed my way since this thread has started which is making me wonder how many listeners have done away with the heavy high mass amps and moved to the newer approach, and what does this mean. It appears that Parts Express alone is selling more amplifiers than most of HEA amp sells combined here in the US. I'm also hearing reports that the Chinese amp market is off the charts and a big part of this is low mass as well. What's even better news is the folks who once challenged me about sound quality, after putting the challenge of low mass vs high to the test themselves are coming to the conclusion that lower mass systems not only sound better but also play more recordings. "more music content" mg |
Hi Erik Conversations with insiders. People who know how many amps are really being sold by the HEA companies. There are basically two numbers that get shared. One is the actual number of sales and the other is the evangelistic projections given to the buying public (speaking about HEA here). HEA designers are not going to tell the potential buyer how little they are actually selling. I as well won’t name names, but will speak in more general terms. I also don’t care to make friends mad at me. Trust me though when I say HEA is in free fall. As far as Parts Express it’s easy to see as they list their products according to buying bins. When they are selling quantities in bulk of 25-up you know they’re selling tons of these to they’re bulk buyers. Keep in mind Parts Express and other companies sell not only direct but also have many commercial accounts. mg |
Actually Clearthink, I was the one who said HEA is in free fall. Erik's posts have been right on the money from what I have been seeing and also testing on my own. "Bubble" is a great word to describe what HEA has created. It's something that has alienated itself (themselves)from the audiophile listener. Erik has also pointed out another very important fact, there's a difference between the HEA person and the Audiophile. Projections about the state of the audiophile can be made all day and all night, but when talking to the industry insiders themselves and audiophile clients the HEA chapter of the hobby is not so hard to figure out. The trophy buyers are getting beyond the age of buying interest and most are moving to their final system choices. These are the guys, maybe 10,000 strong who have supported the HEA revolving door. The amp of the month club has become a hard sell as compared to even 15 years ago when the decline was well in motion. Anytime you see an industry in the US loose over 90% of it's demo store fronts there's a good chance that industry is put on the endangered species list. The other side of this is a very positive one. Your average techy can now place an order with people like "Parts Express", and others, and with a little effort build amplifier systems that out perform the extremely expensive. Pose this to the up and coming audiophile, or to the more practical one, and the over built over priced components hardly get a rise. And here's the real deal. This paradigm shift is happening with or without the opinions of the Agon poster. mg |
Let me give a personal example of what I talked about in my post above. Where I live (small apt on the Vegas strip) visitors stop by my place. They always sit for a quick listen and talk audio as we watch the strip action. I usually have several amps right as they enter my place and they are rotated slowly in and out of my 2 systems. Before this I had a place with 6 listening rooms but I felt was too far from the Vegas Strip, convention center and airport. I mention this to explain why I have the need to rotate every 3 or so months for my work as compared to letting amps settle in the system for years. anyway current picture painted A little less then a month ago I introduced a small Class D amp to the system and as people stopped by the shock was more than a little for folks at not only how great the sound is but also how cool these folks (all audiophiles) thought the look was. The major shocker though was when I let them know the price of the new amp setup. All of them did and are doing the "wait a minute". But the most interesting reaction is how cool they think this new amp paradigm is. "Sounds as good or better, looks very cool, is so tiny". To these folks this is a very exotic, new age approach that is more sexy to them. Before I even mention the price folks like this new style better. mg |
"This thread has to be a joke." and "ridiculous generalizations" You know, I think people who have not been exposed to what has been happening over the past 10 or so years in the way of amplifier innovation and those who have expensive over built high end audio products would say what you just have. Shoot if I didn't have expensive overbuilt amps to compare to I might find it a bit of a joke as well. |
Hi Simon Excellent post! Many, if not most, audiophiles have moved away from faceplate worship after exploring for ourselves. HEA magazines and reviewers milked the pricy faceplate revolving door game for all it was worth and now it's virtually over. The more threads expose the innovation the easier it will be for both headphone and in-room listeners to move into the now. That's not to say other eras in the hobby and lifestyle was not fun, it simply means there's more available to us now. mg |
Hi Erik Yep, some folks here can be funny (desperate for relevance it seems) while sitting in their sinking boat, trying to find the increasing holes to plug. Your statement..."I'm going to go with my ears instead, thank you for playing" ….I'm sure burns a hole in their souls, but it doesn't get anymore truthful and simplistic as that. It's not even an issue that we as audiophiles don't enjoy and respect eras past. I'm pretty sure all of us have had a blast exploring different design types and the designers who sport them. It's part of what gave HEA it's charm, especially before the price hikes. But, I also think most of us knew the day would come that amplifiers would become more practical and better sounding. At least this is what I always thought. It's kind of what we have been saying since the late 70's "audio is not complicated, people are". Audio is one of those technologies that was destined to be over built and then reverse course when it went too far in the boat anchor direction. HEA took overbuild to the extreme and took part of a listening generation with it. But, that was never going to last. Amplifiers are a tool, much like crossovers are. However watch what happens to speaker designing as the class D amps take over. mg |
Yep, typing class D amplifiers into a search engine is getting more and more exciting. For my uses "Tunable" the class D move has been a no brainer. So much so that I’ve been considering bringing my own amp to market to be part of the Rev Speaker Combo. The sound and practicality of these class D amps are game changing for speaker and room designing. Very impressive! MG |
I'm impressed!! Your getting it folks, good for you! The converts over to Low Mass "tunable systems" is growing. This last month I can really see the numbers of folks trading in their over built approach for one that makes more sense and better sounding. I know after years of over massing your system (systems) you kept going and going till you finally put on "that" recording and realized maybe you have been going in the wrong direction. I also know making the turn away from traditional HEA feels treasonous at first. But, your doing it and your finding your not alone. In fact your finding that most of the audiophile world has either done or are on their way to doing the same thing. here's why No where along the audio pathway can you kill the sound to restore the music. If you kill the sound, your also killing part of the recorded content. Now that you have started getting rid of the extra weight your hearing more music content. I suggest you keep going. Keep unloading those bulky acoustical products and getting rid of those big chassis and heavy cables and lets get to the core of your audio signal. Your audio system doesn't need to be as heavy as you have made it. In fact your system probably weighs 10x or more than it needs to to get the job done, and get it done better then you have ever heard before. why does it now sound better? When you start freeing your system from mass you are allowing your signal to work better with the fields of nature. Remember there are 4 basic fundamental forces, the strong force, the electromagnetic force, the weak force, and gravity. No matter what brilliant audiophile theories are thrown at you from our Agon gurus, these are the 4 main interactions that all other energies submit to on our planet. The word "interaction" is the key to it all. Interaction is the opposite from kill. Because the world is made of motion this means that things like audio have a balance to them, no absolutes. The audio signal in motion is highly influenced by it's core's surroundings. You might think of an audio signal traveling down an audio pathway as secluded by itself, isolated from all other energy, but that's not an audio signal in motion at all. The audio signal is in interaction with the four fundamentals that makes everything work. The question comes up, how far away from an audio wire do you have to be before you are not affecting it with the fundamental forces? The answer is both simple and complicated if you think too much. Your audio parts are a part of the four forces therefore it is bound by the same laws as any interactive energy conduit. Your wire for example is part of the fields that interact together with it. Your audio is in a continuum of change. Not necessarily adrift but not confined by a dielectric either. Fields move in and through and surround, all being part of the performance of the audio signal passing through. If you over dampen the conduit you dampen the audio signal (squeezing the sound). Under-dampening the signal becomes an issue when other parts are creating their own energy fields (such as transformers) and are too close to the conduit or if you have shields interfering with the conduits function. Ok I'm not going any further or we will attract attention seeking audio trolls till the cows come home. But all this info is easy to study on your own anyway. To answer why does low mass sound better is simple. Low mass interacts with the forces better because with low mass your not crowding the signal and fields as they are mingling. Low mass with less interference and more interaction gives you more efficiency. here's a test you can do Take a typical amplifier or receiver and take the cover off and remove the transformer away from the other parts and listen to how the soundstage grows. If you move big heat sinks or anything of more mass away from the smaller and more sensitive parts you'll hear a huge improvement with your soundstage space and power efficiency will go up. out for now, got folks tuning I've got to get to mg |
Hi celander Correct. Every product I work with get's tuned or is made variably tunable. That doesn't mean every product gets taken apart, but most do. In many cases I'll be working on a component that one of the Tunees has as well. That way we can ping pong tuning ideas together and I usually will then make custom tuning toys for them to use or test. mg |
