Has Anyone Uesed A PrimaLuna Amp With Harbeth Speaker's

Read Herb Reichert's Stereophile review of the 86dB efficient Dynaudio Contour 20   with the SMALLEST $2199 PrimaLuna power amp.    He stated  "The combo of Dynaudio Contour 20s and PrimaLuna ProLogue Premium played all the mountain ennui and fierce forward momentum that make classic bluegrass unique in the American songbook".   https://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-contour-20-loudspeaker

Or the 87dB KEF Q350  where he preferred it over amps with many times more power, and higher cost.  https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-q350-loudspeaker

Or this review of Wilson Sabrinas where the  36wpc $3199 DiaLogue Premium bested the $10,000 ARC REF75SE .  The reviewer said  "In spite of the low absolute power, the sound was incredibly captivating and dynamics were now seemingly more expansive than with either of the big transistor amps as well as the Ref 75."    http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/loudspeaker-reviews/wilson-sabrina/ 

I've had a lot of Harbeth owners use PrimaLuna and can't think of any that were not happy off hand.  If you like to play your music loud in a bigger room maybe an HP would be better, but for many people a 36 watt PrimaLuna will be fabulous.   

I would never base any purchase decision of wattage.  Wattage means nothing except volume.  It has no effect on bass response or sound quality.  

Hey Yogiboy....great article!!

Here's a good one for you guys and gals http://ken-gilbert.com/images/pdf/taste_of_tubes.pdf

Power means undistorted and uncompressed dynamics true, but if you have enough power you have enough power and having more buys you nothing, and people should not put weight on that as any guarantee of performance.  

 

There is no relationship to quality. Period. Wattage means only one thing. Volume.  

But you’re saying to yourself bigger amps sound better, and it’s because of power, right? Well, no. You can buy a Sony 100 watt per channel receiver for $148. It weighs 14 pounds and IT WILL bench out at 100 watts. And at low distortion to boot!!  

Now look at a pair of Pass Labs XA60.5 monoblocks. They weight 62 pounds each and cost well over $10,000 a pair. And they are only 60 watts. And that's it.  Is this a silly comparison? No, because it illustrates the fact. The Pass sounds better because of parts quality. Transformer size, capacitors, number of output devices, and all the other things that add weight to a quality amplifier. 

***Within a particular brand it’s okay to assume more power is better. But don’t think for a moment a 200 watt amp from Brand A will sound better than a 100 watt amp from Brand B***

In tube amplifiers it gets even trickier. Many high power tube amps get that power by simply running the tubes harder. PrimaLuna could have been designed to be 36 watts or 100 watts from a pair of tubes by simply raising plate and screen voltage and biasing harder.  Higher voltages results in tube shorts, and even if the amp doesn’t break, the tubes wear out quickly. PrimaLuna is the only company proud to say “low power on purpose” because they run the tubes cool. They want a product that you can use every day without having to think about counting hours and how much it costs. What’s fun about hifi if you can’t use it?

Some of the worst sounding tube amps I’ve ever heard had a ton of power. What they lacked was bandwidth. Power has no influence on whether or not the deepest bass or even the highest highs are sent to the speakers. Bandwidth in a tube amplifier is dictated by output transformers, the physical part that actually couples your speaker drivers to the amplifier. 

***Listen to me when I say this. Output transformers are the single most important and most expensive part in any tube amplifier*** 

Even the largest manufacturers buy them off-the-shelf and many spend as little as they can to make a buck.  Trust me I know these guys.  The bigger the company the more they are all about profit margin.  

Output transformers are half art and half science.  PrimaLuna not only designs but winds their own output transformers in house.  Look at the weight of PrimaLuna amps and preamps.    That's serious iron for both power and output transformers.  

It’s parts count. Not watts. Like I said, a $148 Sony receiver will meet it's 100wpc specs and at low distortion.  Look at the internal parts count, quality of parts, and weight.  Use Google Images and believe nobody.  

We recently had a double-blind level matched comparison between the $8500 75wpc Audio Research VSI75 and the $3399 PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium equipped with the same KT150 output tubes here at my store for members of Audiogon. Double-blind and level matched to within .1dB is the only real way to do it. The PrimaLuna had much less power. Not one person picked the VSI75 as better.

I have a latest production 75wpc McIntosh MC275 here with 200 hours on it, and minutes ago did a level matched A/B against a bone stock $3199 36wpc PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium. No comparison. Most notably in dynamics. I’m leaving it hooked up for any Agon members to come and spend some time and they can report back here. We’re going to have the same comparison for the LA Orange County Audio Society when they have their meeting here on March 18.

Both the ARC and Mac amps are good amps. Good amps, good companies. Our position is get better electronics for less money and invest the difference in better speakers where you should invest the most dollars.

Hey clarinetmonster2 where did you make your demo?  Was it a dealer?  What speaker tap did you use?  

Stereophile Editor in Chief John Atkinson used a PrimaLuna HP specifically because of bass performance "speaking with a unified voice" when he reviewed the 87dB efficient YG Acoustics Carmel 2. To my knowledge he has never used a tube amp to write a speaker review at Stereophile.  The fact that he chose the HP amazed even him when he said  

"But once I'd found the amplifier—a tubed integrated!—that also played to its strengths, I very much enjoyed my time with the Carmel 2."

Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/yg-acoustics-carmel-2-loudspeaker-page-2#BhT8uVLCJuJ19aap.99  

Getting back to the point about amplifier power, I suggest you do your own calculations which is very very easy AND enlightening.  Most people never use more than 10 watts of power.  Playing music at 87dB is pretty damn loud. If there are any electrical engineers on this thread they know this.  

Put an SPL meter app on your phone and use this nifty calculator.  It allows you to add the appropriate amount of headroom too.  It's always good to arm yourself with knowledge especially when you go to a stereo store and the salesman knows less than you do.  

https://geoffthegreygeek.com/calculator-amp-speaker-spl/

I didn’t realize I have a customer who owns Harbeth 30.1's and just this week he traded in his McIntosh MA6600 for a PrimaLuna HP integrated.  He sent me this note minutes ago. The HP is new new new and I’ve asked him to check back with updates as it breaks in.   He's very well-read and has a lot of experience.

His observations thus far:

"I have pretty transparent and precise sources - both turntable and SACD player - and unfortunately with my prior solid state amp they sounded almost clinical. The music no longer moved me and my listening sessions shortened as I quickly became disinterested. In the hopes of fixing this, I decided to try tubes again (I had a CJ PV5 30 years ago) and the PL is apparently not only the prescription but the cure. "

"I play acoustic guitar and sing a bit, solo and with others, so I’m particularly sensitive to the sound of acoustic instruments and unamplified human voice. Gillian Welch and David Rawlings could have been playing right in front of me - the tone of his 1935 Epiphone Olympic archtop unmistakable. Satchmo has never sounded better - his voice warm and vibrant - and Ella clear and pure. All instruments sounded natural. Then I threw in a little live electric blues - Clapton playing Eyesight for the Blind. I had to turn it up and there it was - goosebumps. My eyes had been closing, my head swaying, my toes tapping throughout, but the goosebumps sealed the deal. I’m not good at using audio terms to describe what I hear (I really couldn’t care less about that). What I care about is how I relate to the music I’m listening to - am I moved, am I swept up, does everything else seem to fall away? Once I put the PL into my system all of these tests were met and I was thoroughly enjoying the music. That is what I was looking for."

"I’m leaving the amp on overnight to make sure all the tubes have settled (I won’t be leaving it on thereafter) and I’ve already been bitten by the tube rolling bug (no need to, just curiosity) and have ordered a pair of Cifte 12AU7s from you. I can’t wait to hear this puppy once it’s broken in a bit and I’ve swapped in the new tubes."

"My system now consists of: Clearaudio Ovation turntable/Clearaudio Universal tonearm/Lyra Delos/Esoteric E-03; Apple Air/Ayre QB-9 DSD; McIntosh MCD500; Pioneer RT-909 reel to reel; PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP Integrated Amplifier; Harbeth 30.1 Monitors; Shunyata Venom PS8 Power Distributor, Venom Defender, Venom HC and Venom 3 PCs; Cardas Clear USB Cable; and WireWorld Silver Eclipse 7 ICs and speaker cables."

"The PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium HP Integrated Amplifier replaces a McIntosh MA6600 Integrated that will be sent to you later this week as a trade-in."

"I’m really happy, thank you. Chris."

PrimaLuna QC and build quality is better than most any brand at any price, and the proof of that is from well-read,technically adept, independent reviewers that have stated that over and over.  And it's backed up by a 3 year warranty that does not  include hidden charges like certain other brands.  

Read what Stereophile's Art Dudley said.  He knows tube amps.  His words:   "the amp is far from ho-hum: the quality and care with which it's made. Apart from the above-mentioned AutoBias circuit and the logic bits for the remote control, the DiaLogue Seven is completely hand-wired, point to point—and I've never seen a better-built amp. Wires were neatly trimmed and dressed, with no strand out of place. I spent a long time trying to find a single bad solder join, and could not: Someone made this as if it mattered."

Or Stereophile's Herb Reichert who has modified and serviced countless tube amps including restoration of venerable vintage amps like tube Marantz.  He reviewed the ENTRY LEVEL PrimaLuna and said:

"When I removed the ProLogue Premium's bottom plate, I was instantly impressed by the quality of parts and labor I saw. I've serviced countless tube amps, including some of the world's most expensive, and have never seen better-crafted point-to-point wiring or more intelligent layout. On their website, PrimaLuna makes a big deal about their tube sockets being bolted directly to their steel chassis. This is because it is a big deal—it makes their products more durable and trouble free than those of competitors who attach tube sockets directly to circuit boards. The latter strategy saves space, labor, and money, but every time the user removes or inserts a tube, there's a danger of irreparably damaging the board. Over time, that danger becomes a certainty."

"Likewise with those volume controls and selector switches I was talking about. Many of the biggest high-end names use a $4 chip, a DS1666 Audio Digital Resistor, as a solid-state potentiometer to control volume; PrimaLuna uses a motorized Blue Velvet potentiometer, made by Alps in Japan, that costs at least ten times as much. Expensive, Japanese-made relays are used for the source-selector switch."

I have no doubt that Rogue and most other brands have great QC.  PrimaLuna has safety features not found in any other brand to keep it out of the shop ten years later.  Every tube amp on the planet can break....especially those that run tubes hard.  PrimaLuna is made to be used every day.  And they are.