What is it again about the sound that the Furutech fuses improve? WOuld turning up the volume some otherwise achieve similar results? |
"Mapman, really? Thought I saw ya standin in that over night line waiting for the sale to begin. :)"
Maybe my twin brother. Or my evil alter ego who sometimes goes by the moniker "madman". |
"Mapman, couple questions. Is it a BarcoLounger or a La-Z-Boy? And does it have one of those cool beer holders?"
GEoff, I was expecting a refute or at least denial of my "charlatan" comment, not insults directed towards a chair. My chair resents that..... |
"Your chair resents that.... but yet, it puts up with your stinky butt all these years?"
Chairs deserve more credit...... |
"but how can you make a decision without listening first? That's the problem! " Reminds me of a famous LEgend. |
"It happens during the ripping process, too, I'm sorry to report. You know, what with the laser reading the data on the CD and everything, just like reading the disc in real time."
There is more to making music/sound than just reading the data off the disc. SO the two are not the same even though that step alone may or may not be in each case. |
Willie,
Congrats on a very well thought out and practical approach for exploring these waters!
My only question would be why is it that a more expensive fuse is needed to do better over what you started with? There may be some other very well constructed generall purpose fuses available that are NOT marketed to audiophiles that might also do a better job. They might be a better design or perhaps just be in better condition to start than what you have. If it were me, I would want to know how a good say $10 fuse works in comparison to the benchmark of no fuse you tried before dropping the big bucks on an "audiophile" fuse. Unless the money does not matter?
Just saying.... |
No doubt make sure the power is good first. Then worry about fuses later if one must, once the rest of the major items in the house is in order. Unless one notices a problem with the sound that might be traceable to a bad fuse perhaps. Personally, I loose no sleep over fuses once things are tuned in well and to my satisfaction, but hey a tweak is a tweak. Jusr make sure the primary fuse function (protecting the gear from power surges) is in place properly as well.
Also, for some real entertainment, check out the fuse chip thread that has been actively going on here for awhile. Those guys, being worked into a frenzy by the king of sci fi tweaks, GEoffkait, have come up with some real creative places to stick their fuse chips despite it seeming that noone there seems to know how the darn things work :^) |
Willie,
I hadn't thought about the chips like that....kinda a band aid of sorts? OR maybe more like a nicotine patch?
That's fine but I am not a fan of blindly applying performance enhancing tweaks all over the place, especially potentially expensive and/or poorly understood ones. I still have too many other important things to spend my time and money on. :^)
OF course, proponents of the chips might argue that they take even a highly optimized reference system even further perhaps? I kinda doubt that, but ya never know.
When I read about trusted agoner's or other audio buffs that own widely recognized reference systems and that clearly have no vested business interest in esoteric tweaks reporting good things about applying chips, I might take more notice. |
"I suspect other WA Quantum Chip customers will agree with me that the chips are much more than band aids, inasmuch as they obviously reduce noise and distortion in audio systems. "
There may be other ways to accomplish that as well so in that sense they might be compared to a band aid, though the defect they address might never actually heal itself and most likely would get worse before it gets better.
IF that were the case, which is better, applying more band aids, or addressing the root cause of the issue? Equipment might not be operating up to par, flaws in gear might be showing, pieces might be mismatched.
ITs certainly easier to apply more band aids I suppose, but which approach is more effective over the long haul? |
I have no doubt that all fuses are not created equal and can affect the sound at least in some if not all cases.
What I am not as sure about is if high priced fuses marketed to audiophiles are required to do the job.
I suspect there are well designed and constructed general purpose fuse products out there that might do the job well and cost less due to the nature of the product and its target markets (ie not audiophiles willing to spend whatever all in the quest for better sound).
After all, fuses have been around forever, are used in a myriad of applications. THere should be lots of really good ones out there for common market prices I would suspect.
That's just my gut feel. I have no special knowledge or experience with various fuses in audio gear to say for sure.
If the audiophile fuses seem to do the job better (and still protect the gear as they should) then more power to them and their users. The extra money might be worth it if it makes the task of finding a good fuse to use easier. But I do suspect that if a study were done, it might find that audiophiles payed a premium for a good product for the job compared to others. WOuld not be the first time they did that, for sure! :^)
Agoner BryanCunningham, who's opinions I respect, recently graciously did some testing of various fuses, including the more generic kinds as I recall, and reported findings in another fuse thread here. My recollection is he heard some differences fuse to fuse but his findings were inconclusive in the end.
So in the end, one's gut feel or educated opinion perhaps on the issue is probably the only real thing that one can rely on. |
"Like the Intelligent Chip and Rainbow Foil or Cable Wraps from Highwire and Shun Mook, or even the Mpingo Disc from Shun Mook, even such pedestrian things like Tube Traps and acoustic resonators, not only do WA Chips bring things to the table that cannot be gotten some other way - one assumes you mean buying better components - LOL, don't you wish? - but they are essential for getting that "live, holographic sound, if you know what I mean."
SOmehow, I have that live holographic sound without any of those. Go figure!
GEoff, you appear to be suggesting that using these products should be ones first priority for achieving the sound you describe. You are doing people a great disservice and damaging your own credibility even further, as usual.
OF course, you are a vendor of esoteric tweaks yourself, so your motives would seem to be apparent. |
I think everyone has their own unique findings and perspectives that most others may or will not grasp, beyond the common learnings/understanding . Nothing new there. Not worth getting too upset about. If something works for someone, that's all that really matters. Truths and non truths will tend to come out for the general public over time, but it often takes awhile. |
"That pretty much sums up this hobby. If you don't believe that you will hear a difference, you will not. If you do believe that you will hear a difference, you will. "
...and back to the topic of the thread, a lot of product marketing that might resemble "snake oil" banks on it.
Buyer, beware! |
"True.... But somewhere in-between, commonsense should be part of the equation."
True, but passion for anything, hot chicks, good sound, whatever, often impacts common sense.
If Captain Kirk were an audiophile, he'd be exploring the frontiers of that strange new world, maybe including chasing after the hottest new fuse.
Spock might raise his eyebrows a bit at first before indulging. |
Lacee,
Do you think it is possible that in some cases with good systems and good ears that user hears no difference replacing an existing "standard issue" fuse with a Hi FI fuse?
My opinion is that there may be a discernible difference for the better in some cases but not all. Afer all, what you start with matters as much as what you try as a change when it comes to hearing a difference. |
"What is it again about the sound that the Furutech fuses improve? WOuld turning up the volume some otherwise achieve similar results?"
I thought that was a good question.
Geoff mocking it makes me think so even more. |
"When does it ever stop?"
An appropriate albeit rhetorical question. |
" Mapman, you see everything! :-) "
I'll take that as a compliment.
But, not how demagnetizing a CD, which has no materials capable of producing a magnetic field TTBOMK would add any value and if it did, why it would not be more common.
I used to use a tape head demagnetizing device on cassette decks periodically. Seemed to make sense it would have some effect there and results good or bad could be clearly be heard no doubt. Such devices for that purpose were common and relatively inexpensive.
On the bright side, I like how my CDs sound already so I will not loose any sleep pondering how to fix what isn't broken to start with.
If I'm missing something, it won't be the first time. :^) |
I actually rip all my CDs to music server these days. I never play a CD directly, so there is no music making occurring anywhere near the actual CD. Lots of bad things can happen in theory reading an optical disc in real time to make music.
I also use Wifi networked players with external DAC to make the music. No wired connection to a music server computer. This provides very good noise isolation between source computer/music server and hifi system.
VEry straightforward, functional, and always sounds great. Not that there are not potential snafus with any approach, but this one that works well, its easy to understand why, and really leaves little to want sound quality-wise. |
" I kinda suspect in order to get to the bottom of a lot of these things like fuses it is most helpful to actually try them. Anyone can sit on the sidelines in the comfort of his easy chair and wonder."
Spoken like a true charlatan.
I will need a fuse someday most likely, but not now. Fact is its way down on my list of things to try before my time is up, even on the list of audio only things. But it does rank above any products I have seen to-date from Machina Dynamica. Just being honest. |
Lacee,
Just because I am not rushing out to buy any new fuses at this time doesn't mean others should not. I have my priorities, others have theirs. That's what makes the world go round.
I do not automatically go out and try everything that might make a difference. Who has time for that?
Once my stuff sounds the way I want it to, I tend to not change a darn thing until there is a reason I can hear. Nothing lasts forever, so eventually something always seems to come up. Maybe a new fuse will be called for at some point. When it does, I will get one or two or however many needed. WHat kind will I get? Dunno. Time will tell. Meanwhile, if the fuses are making someones listening better, then by all means I am happy for that person. |
I've heard a lot of fuses over the years. I'm pretty sure most of the gear I have listened to had one or more inside. :)
I've even seen a few first hand opening up units that had problems like channels out, etc. for customers.
They all sounded pretty good to me. Except the blown ones, of course.
Its been a while though. Maybe fuse technology has made great strides since. A lot of newer stuff that I think sounds really good probably have fuses inside doing their thing. |
"but how can you make a decision without listening first? That's the problem! " Reminds me of a certain LEgend. No snake oil in that one! :^) |
"Mumbo jumbo physics,which is limited to what can and cannot be measured and mumbo jumbo tweaks are no different.
The followers of either can be fooled by what they have read and by preconceived notions."
Mumbo jumbo is hard to bank on in any case.
Especially in the case of a decision based on mumbo jumbo, a money back guarantee to go along with it should be provided. Otherwise, I will pass personally in most cases. |
I'd trust Nelson Pass to know the right fuse to use in his products.
Not to say changing a fuse might not sound different for many reasons case by case but predicting how in advance is a pot shot.
Plus, ehenever one mucks with the internals of a complex device there is some risk, but if fuse replacement is done correctly and with a reliable product, there should be no problem. If. And if not product warranties are voided in the process.
Most everything one buys these days is easily returnable/refundable. Companies with poor customer service/customer satisfaction policies do not survive long.
As long as the fuse is what is says electronically and works accordingly, no real risk then if good customer service is in place.
WHat if something unexpected happens to the device as a result of changing the fuse? Shit can and does happen. Each knows best how qualified they are to attempt whatever it is they might attempt and deal with things as needed if something should go wrong unexpectedly.
Just being real. Everyone can judge for themselves best what to do or not. |
Just remember, the mere action of removing and re-inserting a fuse alone COULD make a difference, if the new electric contacts are better/cleaner as a result of the process.
That aside, if one fuse sounds better/different than another in repeated test cases, that's hard to refute.
No way to know for sure beforehand. YMMV. |
"No one can accuse you of taking sides"
I take the side that facts are facts and alone may be sufficient to achieve ones goals, but what can be predicted reliably based on the facts is never 100% certain.
In home audio, that which lies beyond the facts is very much the "twilight zone" that is high end audio, where ordinary things do not happen very often. |
"One has to have hands on experience before they can state what is fact what is fiction."
No doubt. And we all have unique experiences to share.
Regarding fuses, I would say its a fact that no two electrical devices, including fuses, are 100% equal. Even two instances of the same design may not function 100% equivalently. So it is reasonable to expect that each performs differently. How much so and to what effect is the only question case by case. Plus all teh things that go along with that to determine value, which is pretty much always in the eye of the beholder/consumer. |
So gotta ask this question.
Is it a fact that there is no "snake oil" involved with fancy fuses?
Based on my experience, I would say there is no basis to say this is a fact.
Almost anything marketed for profit is likely to include some "snake oil" in the mix to make things more appealing.
Are fancy fuses any worse than the norm?
I'd say in general high end audio in general is perhaps worse than normal, with the more "esoteric" products providing a strong bias that way.
I'd say fancy fuses qualify as a fairly esoteric product. Definitely NOT the most out there in concept though. |
Geof,
Unfortunately, whatever the facts may be about fancy fuses, it doesn't make the crap you sell any more credible. But keep on trying, you never know. |
Everything is an individual choice. One should attempt to be as educated as possible, but make their own decisions.
Some sources are more reputable than others. I'll leave it at that. |
I think it is pretty logical that since no one can listen to everything, one has to make some choices to decide what to listen to or not. Even which fancy fuse one might try. |
Lacee,
Determining the happy path to enjoying the music is what its all about.
No two are likely to be quite the same.
Some might involve fuses. But many may not.
I've agreed on several occasions that no two anything sound exactly the same and acknowledged that a fuse change could make a difference.
But I am not going to insist that it always will, even if were to try one and find that to be the case.
There are many other things I know will have a big effect that I would likley consider first. But that's just my case.
ALways best to keep an open mind... |
Lacee,
That's a reasonable perspective to have for these kinds of things I would say. :^) |
Pack,
Are you referring to mu-metal for example?
I use mu-metal foil shielding around my phono step-up transformer to keep hum and noise levels down. Works like a charm, cut and dry, easily audible to anyone save the hard of hearing perhaps! No weird science involved whatsoever. |
