Horns: Why don't they image well?

Horns: Why don’t they image well?

Horns can image very well, I find - certainly going by my own all-horn speakers. Perhaps there’s an aspect of horn speakers imaging differently compared to direct radiating speakers due to their dispersion characteristics of directivity, and hereby limiting to an extend early reflections and room interaction as a whole (i.e.: a relatively bigger share of direct sound than reflected ditto), but as perceived sound I find it makes less sense with such a distinction. Whether horn speakers in general (and they span a variety of iterations be that from mostly hybrids to the more rare all-horns and everything in between that, frankly, makes broad statement to claim one or the other seem somewhat befuddling) are to be found to image badly should fall back on one’s (perhaps lack of) experience with horn speakers or be a matter of mere preference due to "something other" about the way they image, that may even have one believe they don’t image at all.

Another aspect comes to mind, and that’s the typically more pronounced sensation of solidity or density and presence in the sound of quite a few horn speakers, that can be perceived as less airy and more as a quality (to some at least) as music happening in-the-room kind of way, that deters from a more a laid-back, "thinner," behind-the-plane-of-the-speakers and at-arms-length sound that may "stimulate" the sensation of imaging. I find the latter quality beguiling, but ultimately prefer the former as the more uninhibited and natural/live presentation.

Many ways to skin your cat, really. JMLC horns can sound wonderful, OSWG’s I’ve owned (and yes, they image very well), and currently, for the last almost three years I’ve used horn speakers with Tractrix mids and tweeter horns (and folded bass horn) which throw a very convincing stage in front of me (they’re present sounding; not in-your-face). Never heard conical horns the likes of OMA, but in any event I find singling out particular horn geometries as "the best" to be more of a marketing ploy to boost business than a marker of the diversity of great sounding horns out there.

@audiokinesis --

My statement about the Oblate Spheroid profile was based on my understanding that it is the mathematical optimum for minimizing detrimental internal reflections within the horn. There are other profiles optimized for other things - minimum phase, wavefront preservation, etc.

Duke

My aim with your earlier quoted statement wasn’t specific, but obviously that can be problematic in itself - sorry for not being more clear. I appreciate your info on the OSWG’s - I remember reading Mr. Geddes "White Paper" (i.e.: thesis or whatever) on this matter, and it was an interesting read. It seems to truly benefit from this design and minimize internal reflections within the horn as proposed a foam plug of some specific type is needed, but he may have patented this solution.

I guess my main gripe comes with questioning the usefulness, in some instances at least, of knowing about minutiae design "tech details" and how these are convertible into or relate to actual perceived sound. The designer/developer him- or herself should have a closer bearing perhaps, but oftentimes I feel such knowledge presented to the end user, illuminating it may be as a field and entity in itself, has a tendency to produce disciples almost or followers of a brand/principle rather than critical, informed individuals that would seek not to equate too easily. Perhaps I come off setting the bar too low here; I don’t mean to imply the worst of people, but pragmatically speaking I believe this is what marketing does in many cases. That wasn’t what I got away with reading your posts above.

As an endeavor I also have very high respect for Mr. Weiss’ OMA speakers, and look forward to hearing them at some appropriate point in the future. They’re a revival or testament of sorts to speakers as they really should be: large (as physics dictate), highly sensitive (to be used in conjunction with the topologically most simply tube amps), and made with natural, high quality materials where design follows function (and not the other way round); speakers that takes place in one’s home environment as uninhibited and beautifully imposing sound (re)producers. As much though as OMA is a celebration almost of old-school horn/-hybrid speakers, that overall vibe is tempered somehow by the insistence on the use and prowess of the conical horn profile as the best of the bunch, and at the same time shooting into the corner the rest as sub-standard material that can’t rise to the level of something (equally?) good. It’s arrogant, I find, and unfortunate/uninformed really. Like saying: horn speakers are great, as long as they’re mine. That may not be what Mr. Weiss truly feels about the matter, but it comes off that way.

I guess that was my specific aim..

@audiokinesis --

Erik’s thread is entitled, "Why don’t horns image well?", and the entire text of his opening post is, "Anyone have a theory?".

In asking for theories, it seemed like Erik was inviting "tech details" as well as how they "relate to actual perceived sound".

My mistake. I don’t wish to impose anything unwelcome on you or on anyone else.

Duke

Such was not my impression of your replies in this thread (i.e.: that you're imposing something "unwelcome" on any of us), nor have I - from what I'm able to recollect - thought so at an earlier juncture of your post contributions. Please don't let me stop your efforts here, efforts I'm sure many appreciate.

When do we ever not let us be affected, at least occasionally, by technicalities and design principles in regards to what we may be "preaching" or decides to invest in? Really some of the worst theory-laden approach in my mind tends to be the person with an engineering degree who opposes this or that scenario - like power cords and their argued effect on sound with reference to "science," without giving the slightest hint at ever having listened instead of solely theorized. Utter bollocks (pardon my language). 

Currently I'm in the process of having a pair of tapped horn subwoofers build to my all-horn main speakers, though I've never heard these TH monsters - quite intimidating to ponder.. I'm doing a lot of theorizing on this, at times even desperately, in the hope these particular iterations will integrate successfully. They take up some 20 cubic feet per horn (read: there are two of them for a moderately sized listening room), tuned at ~22Hz, and by all accounts they'll weigh in the vicinity of 250lbs (incl. the driver) a piece with the Baltic Birch ply chosen. Insanity potentially abounds, so (note to self) let's have some positive theorizing on their supposed advantages.

To reiterate: I find horns can image excellently, but perhaps they do so differently, not least influenced by their sonic "signature" in general.

As a follow-up to my suggestion above of horns imaging "differently," it's not meant to imply they do so 'per se,' but rather in comparison to a range of direct radiating speakers - I believe that's very important to point out. Really what it comes down to for me is the sensation of uninhibitedness as a desirable trait, and I gather imaging is if not irrelevant, then a part of the overall "equation" that comes to life largely via presence, dynamics and ease as something more substantial and dense in quality horn speakers; this, to me, typically imparts other terms of describing the sound as "imaging." 

@kosst_amojan --

I can imagine a Meyer Setup sounding better than a JBL ditto. At live (amplified) concerts the acoustics and mixing has a huge influence on the perceived sound, but there’s still an imprinting that falls back on the specific gear used - speakers in particular, and also how they’re arranged (never been fond of the large PA-arrays that is typically used nowadays, but there are exceptions of satisfying implementations here). A local cinema uses Meyer Sound (EXP) speakers, and they’re fuller and more relaxed sounding compared to other cinemas in the area that use QSC or JBL.

Re: Klipsch La Scala II: great that you found the opportunity and not least took the initiative to audition them. I haven’t heard them myself, in any iteration, but my own speakers are based on the Klipsch Belle - a "belle," close sibling to the La Scala - that is, in the case of my speakers: the bass horn is more or less the same, and the rest is different and, dare I say, of better quality; be that the cabinet construction, crossovers, drivers, etc. I find they image beautifully (and are very coherent), the only real mild downside here being a restricted image height, but once you place yourself low enough in the seating position in front of them I find it to be a non-issue. The two other areas of either coloration or deficiency is a resonant character in the upper bass and lower midrange and, as you pointed to with your impressions of the La Scala’s, that they roll off quickly below some 55-60Hz. I use a sub with my speakers, so lack of extension isn’t an issue any longer (in fact I’ll replace my current sub with a pair of tapped horn subs in about a month time - should be interesting). And the upper bass/lower mids coloration (depending on the material can give the impression of a slightly hollow and resonant character that obscures details) might be alleviated once a high quality DSP will be implemented within shortly. The outlook for a true all-horn speaker setup (from 20Hz on up), which is quite rare, has me excited.

It seems to me there are inherent traits if you will with horn speakers - like that of (macro-) dynamics and perhaps their sonic presence - that won’t appeal to you in whatever form these will be (and that you find objectionable at live gigs as well), and that’s totally cool. I do believe however that you have even better sonic experiences of horn speakers to look forward to, or certainly be presented with in the future. That the La Scala’s brought you closer to this realization, not least in light of your formerly expressed hatred almost of horn sound, I find very promising. Please let us know of any future horn-speaker expositions, should they occur. Not least be aware of whether these are all-horns or hybrids..

Watch this folks....

I came to this thread really opposed to horns, and I'm not 100% on them today, but I'm not going to let the misinformation go unchallenged.

Horns don't "spread the sound". They mechanically couple a pressure impulse to the environment. Horns are MORE directional than dynamic drivers with more controlled dispersion. 

Indeed they are "MORE directional than ..," and It should make them less fuzzy about room acoustics, not to say they don't benefit from absolute care with regard to placement and even very minute changes in their positioning and toe-in, but that's true for a variety of speakers regardless of principle. Quite a few horn speakers can be placed in close proximity to the rear wall, with many of them even requiring it, and this alleviates to an extend their typical large size and intrusion in a living-/listening room milieu, without affecting "sound staging" negatively. 

Personally I fancy horn speakers often being rather wide (as opposed to the narrow baffle/deep enclosure seen with most direct radiating speakers), as it seems to subjectively highlight this big, vibrant "wall of sound"-like sonic presentation. If they're made with real-wood veneering or even hardwood they are also lovely to look at with their broad front panels and horns. I miss the sensation of speakers as wood furniture that actually looks and feels (and even smells) like real wood (instead of the lacquer-infested and glossy appearance from most modern speakers), while unapologetically taking up space as big sculptures in one's home environment, but that's just me.  

My own listening room is quite "alive" btw, an acoustic environment that's most pleasing for me to actually occupy, and with the all-horn speakers I use it's a non-issue sonically. Generally though I prefer diffusion over too much absorbing with any speakers, so not to rob the sound of what I regard as a natural life. But, I digress..