Mapman, I have come to the conclusion that I too, am a dual system person. My struggle between my love of tube gear and B&W speakers has caused my OCD to go into overdrive.
Just today, I bought a SS Plinius Hautago amp (200 watts) suitable for driving B&Ws properly and am now in a search for some tube friendly speakers for my PrimaLuna amp. My wife is so understanding of my sickness and knows that I will never get off the MGR. |
I'm a dual system guy. One system gets locked in for reference. The other I get to play with to see what else might be possible. As time and money permits of course... |
All I know is that in the last five years, I have achieved more realism than I ever thought possible. But you are right as I'm about to try a new rack and will soon get a music server capable of play quad DSD. |
Isn't it a little crazy to go on a journey with no destination?
Experimenting and trying different things alone can be a destination just as can a particular desired sound.
Or you can have dual destinations/goals sometimes as well, especially if one runs more than one system, one for reference and one for experimentation. |
04-23-15: Cdc
Sure, the merry-go-round goes in circles with no end. We need an "audiophile highway" with a destination. There is no destination, an audiophile never finds the end of the highway. It goes on until one loses interest in audio for other reasons (health, wealth, death). A true audiophile is never done experiementing, so the journey continues even when one finds sonic bliss, as the possibility of improving upon "amazing" to "more amazing" will always exist. It is this assumption that drives the glossy rag business. |
Sure, the merry-go-round goes in circles with no end. We need an "audiophile highway" with a destination.
How do you know you've gotten there when you don't know where you are going? HHhhhhmmmmmm;) |
Drubin, I got off the mgr by going VAC integrated and decoupling the word, "new," from "better," or magic." Usually, "new" is "a little different," and rarely better. It's true that integrateds tend to defuse the "weakest link" obsession, and with VAC I have a sense of a great musical instrument, and my upgrade path is to A/B what I have with the next VAC integrated. Of course I had to love the VAC sound as a prerequisite.
Another twist is to go "classic," and choose the items that have earned a consensus of "great," which also defuses the marketing hype of "new" that gets to feeling like Lucy and the football.
Or 12 step. |
Thank goodness I never got off as the last four years have seen me achieve what I thought was impossible, namely realism.
Of course, your components have to have the potential in them, but it is other elements that have allowed the breakthrough. In the order of my getting them these have been: the Tripoint Troy, which I reviewed long ago, but the Troy Signature and especially with their Thor SE grounding cables; three generations of High Fidelity Cables and especially their power cords; both the Stillpoints Ultra series, and then the Star Sound Audio Points and their Apprentice platform; and the Zilplex room treatments.
While taken together these all represent about 55% of the cost of my system. But what they have done, I think, exceeds anything I could have done buying more expensive components.
I should also say, however, that the Koda K-10 preamp has contributed to this excellence. |
03-24-15: Drubin
My neurosis is all about creating a legacy. Since this thread I started almost 15 years ago is still going, I believe it's time to declare victory. Though I'm still not off the MGR. :-) Drubin, I entered this thread the day after you started it. I don't know that it is about creating a legacy for me, more of an OCD thing I think. I am also still on the MGR. ;^) Phd, perhaps the reason you are more sensitive to audio related negative comments is because it hits closer to home for you. Also, you tend to be in that environment more, as stated in your example. I'm sure those addicted to cars, boats, watches, etc., also get the same feelings about their hobby/spending, but they are in jewelry stores, boat shows, etc., and not in audio showrooms. |
Drubin, I think you have earned a victory with this thread and it's quite possible others who have participated here must feel some sense of victory as well.
I can give an example of why I feel my above comment might hold some truth. A friend and myself go into a local HIFI shop. He spends only two hundred dollars on a used Hafler amp and I have spent a great deal more money on an another piece a gear. The owner tells him that he is very smart because there are not too many people that are sensible when it comes to spending on audio. Basically it was just another way of calling me stupid. I suppose there is some criticism on other hobbies but I'm not hearing it. |
You're suggesting a critical judgment of audiophiles but not of other hobbies. I doubt that's true. Obviously some audiophiles feel it's constructive and others see issues with it, such that they might frame it as being on a Merry-Go-Round. I'm sure the same is true for other hobbies, don't you think?
I've always believed that hobbies and how we engage in them are partly an outlet for, or an expression of, our neuroses: pursuit of perfection, defense of one's decisions as the best possible choice, etc etc. You see all sorts of patterns play out here constantly. I'm sure this is true for golf, racing...you name it.
My neurosis is all about creating a legacy. Since this thread I started almost 15 years ago is still going, I believe it's time to declare victory. Though I'm still not off the MGR. :-) |
By participating on this thread you already have admitted that the audio merry-go-round does exist for many however as mentioned above many do enjoy the ride. Why is it that Audiophiles are on a Merry-go-round while other people involved in other hobbies are just indulging in their interests and doing something constructive? |
Don_c55, I think it is even easier today.
Since even the few remaining dealers will soon be gone, most audio paper magazines will also be gone, and electronic magazines will be available for all perspectives and will disagree on everything, and everything will be no better than MP3, and finally most will want music 24/7, all you really need to do is wait.
Furthermore since only the top 1 percent will have discretionary income, you might as well get off the merry-go-round. High end audio will be like yachts. How many of your contemporaries have musical systems in their living rooms now? It used to be well over half of mine did. Now I see maybe one out of ten older friends have any and they are old ARs and receivers with lamp cords to the speakers. |
Great post Greginnh ! How true. how true , a grand here a grand there -LOL. |
Good advice Don. I can't got to my dealer without buying something. My wife calls it the "crack house"! |
Unsubscribe to all audio magazines, do not visit audio internet forums, and stay out of high end stores!
Buy more music, and enjoy your system as is!
Only buy new equipment, when the existing can not be repaired! |
I realize this a very old thread. However, since I'm probably older than most of you, I thought I'd contribute. :)
I select gear that is the best I can afford and keep it for a long time. That is hardly to say I've spent huge amounts of money on equipment. My all tube electronics are excellent vintage MFA, which I've had upgraded as my budget permits.
Once I've experimented tweaking my system, particularly speaker placement, I concentrate on the music, not the equipment.
Once I've gotten my system dialed in, I listen, not to the gear, but to the music.
MUSIC.
After all, isn't that what this hobby is all about? |
It's been the best ride of my life, why would I want to get off ? |
Sabai, yes, look for long USB cords. |
Well this may be to obvious but how about getting a system that is satisfying. |
In my case, I'm pretty sure it will be death. Ha! Good one! |
Well Sabai, we shall see or not. I only worry about things I can change and seldom about even that. |
Swinfrey,
Life itself is a merry-go-round. IMO, the best we can do is find one we love and stick to it, giving it meaning and value. For me this applies to work and as well as other endeavors. |
Schubert,
If you believe in the afterlife then I don't think death will solve this problem. |
Schubert, in my case, being retired, quality reproduction of classic performances no longer relax me at the end of the day, but as long as I can hear and am alive, I will still occasionally shout "bravo" at the end of some cuts.
My dad needed music and evidently passed on the genes. |
In my case, I'm pretty sure it will be death. |
Reprogram your brain to listen to the music and not the stereo. |
Think of it like quicksand. The more you struggle, the more you sink. A person will gradually begin to sink in quicksand, and movement will make the victim sink faster. and it is not easy to get out once you fall in: The force needed for someone to pull their foot out of quicksand at a speed of a centimeter a second would be the equivalent of that required to lift a medium-size car. So don't ask your friends to tug on you; they're likely to pull you into two pieces if they try hard to pull you out. So how do you get out of quicksand? Does this also apply to stereo on a psychic, not physical, level? The way to do it is to wriggle your legs around. This creates a space between the legs and the quicksand through which water can flow down to dilate (loosen) the sand. You can get out using this technique, if you do it slowly and progressively. |
How does one get off the merry-go-round? There are many ways. One is to go broke. |
Death, its that simple. If you are into audio you are doomed, best to hope for is a place in haven in their hi end sector. |
I have had the same components for about 6 years, I occasionally upgrade phono cartridges, but most people can't really hear the subtle nuances between components anyways. I was a professional orchestral musician and can hear pretty good, but changing components as fast as you change underwear won't get you there. It's simply about the music, nothing else.
TR |
Thanks Phd. I appreciate that. |
Swinfrey, that is a very cool answer in that it makes alot of sense, well-spoken! |
I think everyone here has a nugget of truth that we can all benefit from. I believe everyone who gets into this hobby has to be a music lover to some degree because let's face it, that's what stereo systems do-create music. But I don't have any problem with the guy who takes pride in the look and construction of his gear either. Different strokes for different folks. But to address the topic of this thread I think you can be on a merry go round in basically two different ways.
1. Time - We can and often spend way too much time in this hobby. Whether in listening, reading about, or going to shops, shows, ect. I have been guilty of this way too often. And I am not going to sit here and preach to anyone about how much is too much but everyone knows what is reasonable in their own life. Ways that I personally keep things in control in this area is to take an interest in other things in life. Maybe watch a movie, check out the History channel, or read a book a few nights a week.(trying to give practical suggestions)
2. Money- Oh how we can spend money in this hobby! Guilty again. But you know this is a free country and like most people here I worked hard to get what I have and music is what I like to enjoy when I get home. But back to the thread (and you guys have made some great points in having a goal set, ect. Some of the practical things I do (and please forgive me if any of these have been mentioned and I know most have, but as a reminder) to spend less money and still make a difference in your system are:
-DIY room treatments
-play around with magnets on your power cords (these have a very positive effect on RFI and EMI) but keep them off speaker wire and interconnects (has neg. effect on dynamics)
-add weight to various parts of your system
-if you have tubes then experiment
- I have made a DIY center weight for my Thorens 124 out of brass plumbing parts for about $5. Works great.
And the list goes on and on.
Actually, when I want to spend less money on my system I spend more time reading on Audiogon because of the huge number of people that know more than me and can help you with your system.
So if I may conclude I think you can be on a merry go round on any number of things in life but the key is to find that balance that makes you happy (and not feel like you have to get off any merry go round) as well as to make those around you feel important who are not into the hobby. |
Easy answer to the ops question. Become a music lover. |
Hi Mapman, Thanks. Have a Happy Thanksgiving. |
"With old cars you adjust the heat by turning a knob. With new cars you practically have to be a computer programmer to figure it out. There is no need for this complexity."
Amen brother.
The complexity is good for the car service industry though when something goes wrong and has to be fixed. But its marketed based on other terms and people buy into it, literally. |
03-29-05: Detlof: "As time went on, I was forced to realise, that my mind got more and more entrapped by the gear and less by the message the music might have to convey. This was not merely bad, because through this, I became more aware of that musical message, which managed to get through the audiophile smog"...Could "audiophile smog" be defined as: manipulation of the sound in a certain way, which, in turn, draws attention to the component itself and not the music? It's no wonder people get audiophile nervosa. It plays on the thought "I just spent $10,000 on a preamp I want to HEAR what I got for my money." Result = listening to the component, not the music. Look at new cars compared to old cars. With old cars you adjust the heat by turning a knob. With new cars you practically have to be a computer programmer to figure it out. There is no need for this complexity. The result is that it draws attention to the controls and not the act of getting some heat. Some type of pride by the designer? |
First: try to go objective as much as possible to cut down brands to pour over. If you hate solid state, great, you have just wiped out over half the products out there. Narrow it down further to SET and you've wiped out, say, another 80%.
Second: Get components which do not draw attention to themselves. A highly colored amp (like Naim to my ears) is fun for a while (Naim has rhythm) but gets fatiguing in the long run. Sorry to all Naim owners out there - just trying to make an example.
Third: Get a system which has no blatant flaws to YOU. A system that satisfies on its own terms. Because if you listen and say "This lack of bass is annoying" or "They HF harshness is irritating" you can't listen in peace and always itch for something else (I'm not even saying better)
Fourth: Ignore magazines which try to undermine your security. Shake people's confidence in their own stereo and then they are open to buying something new. |
The simple answer is you find what works, and stick with it. That means know when to stop.
Like many (most?) here, I've bought and sold more hi-fi components than I can count, trying this new source, or swapping one amp for another, changing these speakers for those other ones, etc.
For me personally, I got off the merry go round when I found components that sounded simply spectacular, and everything else I was trying just didn't sound as good. Of course it's a subjective thing, and what sounds good to me, may not to you. Not to mention the different listening room shapes and sizes that will make a component sound great in one room, but not so good in another.
FWIW, my "I got off the merry-go-round" components are the following:
Tyler Acoustics taylo reference monitors
Decware Zen Torii mk3 integrated amplifier
North Star m192 mk2 DAC
Slim Devices Transporter
The transporter is connected to the DAC via balanced AES/EBU. All interconnect and speaker cables in my system are from Blue Jeans cable. Power cables are generic IEC hospital grade.
I'm in listening bliss, nearly everything it plays is the perfect balance of detailed, musical, warm, and massive 3D soundstage. I have no desire whatsoever to change any of these components - I don't even browse the equipment classifieds any more. I couldn't be happier!
Again, this stuff is all quite subjective, so take it with a grain of salt, but now you know my experience. |
Early on in my audio career, the choice was FM versus LPs. With WFMT available, all was good. Then there was Eugene and Tallahassee with a brief time in Philly. The only real music was on public radio. FM radio was on decline. While I still have a FM receiver, it has not been on in twenty years. In short for me "streaming" is gone. Now, however, I have a music servers, but I do no streaming from it throughout the house. We have a house intercom system which allows listening to a fairly good NPR station.
For me the thrill of audio is realism. The music server makes it easy to get even DSD files and HD 96/24 and 192/24 files in addition to cds. I must say, however, that if I want real music, it is still vinyl. And now with real isolation available thanks to StillPoints, I have achieved realism especially with vinyl. I am at many very special performance available on demand.
I certainly appreciate that had I gotten out of audio earlier, I would never have known such realism and the thrill of it. |
"Flipping the same recordings over and over to make comparisons is a completely different experience then enjoying music. Which would you prefer?"
I've headed down the latter path in recent years as a result of bringing in internet radio, music server, etc.
My favorite station now is my own, Mapman Radio, which streams on my home Wifi network only off my music server with Squeezebox set to random tracks.
I add to the musical rotation there more liberally now than I have since 30 years ago in college. |
What slowed me down was music itself. While streaming Pandora may be in an opposite direction as far as sound quality is concerned, getting exposure to unfamiliar content is a step in the right direction,for me.
Flipping the same recordings over and over to make comparisons is a completely different experience then enjoying music. Which would you prefer? |
I found the perfect way about ten years ago: divorce.
Allowed me to unload $25K worth of brilliant equipment in about three months. Now, ten years later, I can look at the merry go round, but I doubt I'd ever get back on it. |
- Abuck -You may be doomed but what a way to go. |
My basement system is comprised of a Marantz 2252 rcvr, a Denon cdp, and various speakers I switch in and out. Vintage JBL's, Cerwin Vega's, Wharfedales, Advents, etc. I get nearly as much enjoyment out of them as I do the main rig. I guess I'm doomed... |
I also have three systems, but the main system is far superior so listening to the other two is always a bit of a let down.
I've spent a life time trying to get friends interested in audio and on the so called merry go round, now some people here want to get folks off it, thats when you start to lose interest. Changing components is what makes this hobby interesting and makes it a hobby not just a pass time. |
Having more than one system to provide some variety in sound can help. |
.
Someone said on this forum several years ago "we're all as crazy as we can afford to be".
There is no way off once you've gotten on. So, you'll stay on the merry-go-round for as long as you have money, or until you pass on to the great high-end audio salon in the sky.
. |
as long as you go in a straight line you will avoid the merry-go-'round.
you must have a goal, otherwise, you will never be satisfied.
those who continually buy and sell for its own sake or to hear a different performance are obsessive compulsive audio consumers. don't be an obsessive compulsive audiophile and you will never enter the merry-go-round. |
