Rok, am I glad you're back; not only has Frogman been misinterpreting every thing I say, but he's been rewriting my posts, and coming up with something completely different from what I said originally.
If "present day jazz" is neither definable or clearly identifiable, then it has to be some kind of "mutation". It's often been stated that current musicians should simply drop the "jazz" title and come up with a new name, also they could specify; is it: Soul Jazz, Free Jazz, Acid Jazz, Kenny G. Jazz, Rock Jazz, Blue Grass Jazz, Latin Jazz, Brazilian Jazz, or jazz mixed with classical music, not to be confused with "Classic Jazz", which is Jazz Jazz.
Frogman, while I've enjoyed and appreciated your very informative posts, I think you should start a new thread specifying precisely what it is you're looking for. Not only would I post on it, but I would even research whatever it is you're looking for and trying to get across.
While I have appreciated your expertise as a professional musician, I have absolutely 100% no intentions of becoming one myself, and for Learsfool who seems to chime in on my refusal to learn the technical aspects of music, "I consider this ignorance BLISS", and I hope this closes that door permanently.
When you start your new Thread that spells out precisely what you're looking for, I will be the first to post on it.
Enjoy the music.
|
To all Aficionados, I consider Frogman a highly educated and intelligent person, who has made great contributions to this thread; however, quite recently I seem to be speaking French and he only understands English, or vice versa.
If he is dissatisfied that I didn't follow through on exploring the 80's and continuing on into the present, I already told him that he could follow through, and I would support him. Let me give you my background on this in real time.
That was when I began buying records based on magazine reviews and wound up with many records on the ECM label that haven't been played for years. Recently, when I heard a tune on the radio, and bought the album, that was the only cut worth anything. There is no way I'm going to follow through on music I could very well live without; however, if he chooses to follow through I'll support him and give my "honest" opinion on artists and music.
Since we've already been through that "old" versus "new" music, and I made the discovery personally that I could live without most new music, and that seems to be the consensus on this thread, maybe a new thread that would attract younger readers might be the answer to his dilemma. Whatever the answer I'm willing to help him find it so that he can have peace of mind.
Enjoy the music.
|
Acman, "Old" is better than "New" is a judgmental statement; while I made many statements that "implied" this, I never made that statement.
I compare this to the colors of the rainbow, I like blue, others like red, and there are those who like the remaining colors. Is one color better than another? No, it's simply a matter of preference.
Currently, the record of the month in "Stereophile" is Sasha Matson; "Cooperstown: Jazz Opera In Nine Innings". Maybe you or others could review it, and give your opinion of this most current record.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, I have many "Windham Hill" recordings and they are all of excellent audio quality. "Shadofax" is my favorite group on that label. Tuck and Patti were quite popular when they came on the scene. I'll see what I can find by them in my collection. Thanks for a nice contribution, I liked it.
Enjoy the music
|
Rok, in the process of looking for my favorite recordings on the "Windham Hill" label, I discovered that "Shadowfax" disbanded in 1995. The group formed in 1972 and disbanded after 1995 when Lyricon player and leader Chuck Greenberg died of a heart attack. Having lost their signature sound, Shadowfax's members went on to other projects. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv1YtAjgKzo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQY0rA5W574I have both of these albums. I must have acquired them about the time I began to diverge from exclusively buying albums that fell under the "jazz" genre. When it comes to current music I disregard genre altogether, meaning I just listen and let it happen. If the music resonates with my inner self, I buy it, if not, I leave it lay. I think that's about as "subjective" as I can get. Frogman, could you explain how, and in what way: Mapman, Acman and Chazro are at a disadvantage? Enjoy the music. |
Rok, I may never stop laughing over your win of all my "Kenny G." collection.
|
"New Age", now there's a genre we have not touched on at all. I stumbled on this when I began buying music without knowing or caring what the genre was; that's after I got fed up with all the "fusion". Andreas Vollenweider caught my attention in a big way; he looked so "Cherubic", behind that big harp, and he even sounded it. After catching him live, I was really hooked on his music. He was at a big opera house that was seated to capacity, which was an indication I wasn't the only person hooked on Andreas's music. We had a mezzanine seat that put us right in the middle; it was like being in the middle of a gigantic speaker. I had two pair of binoculars so I could see the whole group or focus on any one musician; the percussionist for example had more chimes, gongs, and ancient drums than I could name. Andreas even had two harps and a koto (that's a Japanese harp that lays flat). Every musician in the band had more than one instrument. Here are the musicians: Andreas Vollenweider: Harp Christoph Stiefel: Keyboards, Synthesizers Pedro Haldemann: Bells Walter Keiser: Drums Jon Otis: Percussion Max Laesser: Strings (Arranged the Silver Symphony Orchestra and Choir) Matthias Ziegler: Woodwinds Here is "Dancing With The Lion" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEtu9ZJtE0M&list=RDFEtu9ZJtE0M#t=115"Down To The Moon" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me6aASTOglEEnjoy the music. |
Although I've had "Down To The Moon" since it came out, seeing it performed took me back in time; I can even remember the shirt I had on when we went to see Andreas.
One pair of binoculars fit in my wife's purse (they do come in handy from time to time) and I carried the big one's around my neck; I was prepared to capture every moment, I saw what you saw. While listening to the music is nice, it doesn't compare to watching the musicians produce the music while you're listening.
During those 39 minutes I was transported back to a virtual reality when I was considerably younger. Frogman, that's another "Reality" you can add to those we've accumulated so far; it's called "Virtual Reality".
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, although the sound quality was excellent, there are so many better options, that I would pass on Jacky.
Getting back to the real deal, I've been focusing on the instrumentalist backing Dinah; Clark Terry and Clifford got in a trumpet duel of sorts without missing a beat and backing Dinah at the same time. I bought that album primarily to hear stuff like this and I didn't get cheated; every note is a winner.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
Ramonron, why don't you and Frogman have a conversation to start things off.
|
Ramonron, long time jazz lover who never posted on this jazz thread, but now you voice a complaint echoing Frogman's complaint. You two guys are a match made in heaven, I'm eagerly awaiting your new thread; but if you didn't post on this one for over two years, I really don't think you have much to offer.
Maybe Frogman wont be so frustrated after you and he specify precisely what this new thread is going to be about; could it be "Watch another thread for over two years, and then complain when they don't write what you want". Frogman and Ramonron, that sounds like a dance team, I'm sure you'll make a good couple.
Enjoy your new thread.
|
Rok, while perusing a "Mosaic" catalog, I discovered something worth considering, "Charles Mingus - The Jazz Workshop Concerts 1964 -65"; this is considered an epic masterpiece. While you may have it in bits and pieces, I don't think I have it. This includes Town Hall, Amsterdam, Monterey 64, Monterey 65, and Minneapolis; 7 CD's $119.
In Mingus's Jazz Workshop the exploration never stopped. Rehearsals could go for days. His music looked back to all the history of jazz. The music ranges from his interpretations of Ellington, to tributes to his musicians, ("Praying With Eric).
The musicians: Jaki Byard, Piano; Johnny Coles, trumpet; Lonnie Hillyer, trumpet; Eric Dolphy, alto, plus bass clarinet and flute; Charles McPherson, alto; and last but not least "Dannie Richmond", drums. A man of style and precision, immaculately dressed, he perfected the art of folding and packing his flawless wardrobe inside a small suitcase. He died in 1988 in a hotel in New York en route to join the Mingus Dynasty band in Europe. He was 56 years old, the same age at which Mingus died.
You probably know more about these particular concerts than I do; do you buy the complete edition for $119, or get bits and pieces for less, that is the question? It depends on whether or not you got $119 as loose change. One thing is for certain, no one got more out of musicians than Mingus, even the one's you weren't too particular about sounded good.
Enjoy the music.
|
"Nica's Dream" composed by Horace Silver is my favorite tune, and this "messenger's" version is my favorite; but first, let me tell you a little bit about "Nica". Kathleen Annie Pannonica de Koenigswarter was a British-born jazz patroness and writer. She was a leading patron of bebop music. In New York, de Koenigswarter became a friend and patron of many prominent jazz musicians, hosting jam sessions in her hotel suite, and lending them her chauffeur and Rolls Royce when they needed a lift to performances. She is sometimes referred to as the "bebop baroness" or "jazz baroness" because of her patronage of Thelonious Monk and Charlie Parker among others. Following Parker's death in her Stanhope rooms in 1955, de Koenigswarter was asked to leave by the hotel management; she re-located to the Bolivar Hotel at 230 Central Park West, a building commemorated in Thelonious Monk's 1956 tune "Ba-lue Bolivar Ba-lues-are". She was introduced to Thelonious Monk by jazz pianist/composer Mary Lou Williams in Paris while attending the "Salon du Jazz 1954", and championed his work in the USA, writing the liner notes for his 1962 Columbia album Criss-Cross, and even took criminal responsibility when she and Monk were charged with marijuana possession by the police. After Monk ended his public performances in the mid-1970s he retired to de Koenigswarter's house in Weehawken, New Jersey, where he died in 1982. There are numerous compositions in her honour. Gigi Gryce's "Nica's Tempo", Sonny Clark's "Nica", Horace Silver's "Nica's Dream", Kenny Dorham's "To Nica", Kenny Drew's "Blues for Nica", Freddie Redd's "Nica Steps Out", Barry Harris's "Inca", Tommy Flanagan's "Thelonica" and Thelonious Monk's "Pannonica" were all named after her. Here is by far my favorite version of "Nicas's Dream", I can feel it in my bones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lju13U1zEEEnjoy the music. |
Rok, I agree on the singers; while I like the MJQ in general, on occasion they have gotten too moody and introspective, those are the LP's that didn't get turned into CD's.
Enjoy the music.
|
Acman, on Brad Mehldau; too moody and introspective, nice music but "moody and introspective" is not my cup of tea presently. This is not a case of "New" vs "Old", even if it was by an old artist like Miles for example, I still wouldn't like it. Presently, I don't care for Miles slow ballads.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
Acman, would you call "The Swingle Singers" third stream?
|
|
|
Rok, if absolutely nothing was labeled, we would discover that we like a lot of things we're not supposed to like.
Enjoy the music.
|
|
Rok, "Boy, What a Night" is a perfect example of what I'm talking about in regard to thinking that you have all the most important jazz by any given musician. I don't have that, nor do I have "Barry Harris" (he was a good friend of Nica's) that I'm aware of. I bought Lee Morgans greatest hits, which includes "The Sidewinder", but not the rest of the cuts on that album.
My current decision to go back and buy all the LP's was a good one. Fortunately I have Eddie Harris, Les McCann and of course Oscar Brown. Nina Simone's version of "Rags and Old Iron" was the first I heard, they're both very good.
This is working out even better than I thought.
Enjoy the music.
|
Although Frogman is no longer with us, I feel compelled to find some new high quality jazz. This came to me with high recommendations and I bought it; "Kalenia" by Oran Etkin. Atman said my reason for not preferring new jazz is a generational thing, I'm sure there is some truth in that. Today, I've nominated this CD for a complete review. Although all the cuts were "listenable", I could have lived without most of them. I'll present to you the one that gets a cigar. Bass clarinet is not an instrument I've heard very often, as a matter of fact, I found it very interesting and unusual; that alone rescued the flat spots on this CD, plus superior sonics didn't hurt. While I'm glad I purchased it because of it's uniqueness, I can't recommend it because not enough cuts get cigars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFJsM-hoN7sEnjoy the music. |
Rok, while you were defending our integrity, I was reading about "Mary Lou Williams"; she was a very impressive lady. I'll get back to you after I've finished. You can find her picture in Nica's book. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X4r5ZioIBwEnjoy the music. |
Rok, Now that you have dealt with a most distasteful situation, that's completely behind us, and we can go on to more productive uses of our time.
Although "all" of the artists on Dinah Jams are major, to me, "Richie Powell", one who many people are unfamiliar with because he was killed in that automobile accident with Clifford Brown, is very important. I like him even better than his famous older brother "Bud Powell"; that's why I cherish every note I can find by him.
Presently I'm still pursuing Mary Lou Williams.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, we're going to have to find some kind of filter for "Mary LOU", because of the recording quality of so much of her music. This is going to require work; for example "Mary Lou's Mass" is a work of art, but the sonics wont cut it for me; but since it is a work of art, it's also recorded as a "Dance Thing", that would work if I could find a DVD where that's choreographed.
|
Rok, apparently there are two trains of thought on this thread; we have much more important things to to do. I've discovered a "gold mine" and we are going to mine it for what it's worth. Just as trains running in opposite direction pass on parallel tracks, we shall allow that train to proceed on to it's desired destination, without disturbing it.
|
Rok, this is an even greater Gold Mine than the last one we discovered, and I know we're both still enjoying that one. "Mary Lou's" incredible music is coming up short in the sonics department, but her music is so incredible in regard to "Blues and Soul", that it doesn't have to be her playing her music; it's just that powerful. While I mentioned blues and soul, the gal can bop too. This is an example of her religious music that's so powerful, I vibrate when I look and listen to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk1Rkf9LVAkEnjoy the music. |
Rok, you didn't buy "Dinah Jams" for Dinah Washington, you bought it for the musicians backing her, so do not miss one single solitary note.
|
Rok, I have an affinity for Mary Lou's music that goes beyond anything I have ever experienced; it's a kind of nostalgia thing that goes back to a time before I was even born. Have you ever looked at an old black and white photograph that was so old that it was turning brown, and been drawn into it? I'm drawn into the sound of her piano; on "Willow Weep For" for example, this sounds like music I heard at a time before I could even remember. on "It Ain't Necessarily So", I've heard this a thousand times by a thousand people; why should Mary Lou's sound so different; it takes me back, way back; so far back that I wasn't even born. Could there be something to reincarnation? Maybe I heard her before I was born in a "speakeasy" in Kansas City when I was somebody else? Music is so mystifying; I mean how the very same music can have so many different, and unusual effects on different people.
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4THBVc47ug>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e8AOox_prE[/urk]
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4THBVc47ugEnjoy the music. |
Rok, here's "It Ain't Necessarily So"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4THBVc47ug&list=RDz4THBVc47ugI could listen to her music all night and never get bored; the more I listen the more I want to hear. Our job is to "separate the wheat from the chaff"; meaning she had to make a living, which means whatever was popular at that time, plus there's the matter of recording quality. I'll have to do a lot of searching before I can make recommendations on which CD's to buy. Enjoy the music. |
Rok, Dinah was one hot sister, and she was only 30 when she made that album. I'm super sensitive to female vocalists when they still have that "girlish" quality in their voice. When you combine this with the very best young jazz musicians, it comes through the music; it don't git no better than that. Your experience mirrors my own.
Presently I'm on a mission that's led to "analog"; that's that dreaded stuff that requires deep pockets, 3K minimum to beat CD. My cartridge recently had an accident, the clumsy thing ran into my hand.
I paid $35 for records that weren't on CD, and shortly after that they came out on CD. Hopefully what's available only on records will be available on CD in a short while. I have yet to find CD's to recommend.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, the only thing dope inspired was "No Shows". Musicians who used dope would have been addicts had they never laid eyes on a musical instrument or sang one single solitary note.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, patience is a virtue, one we will have to exercise in regard to acquiring Mary Lou's music. In the meantime we can discuss the person who created the music. She was a natural born musician who was way ahead of her time, so far ahead that mom couldn't believe it; she dropped Mary Lou who was in her lap watching mom play, and played the same thing note for note after watching mom. (I wrote about another musician who repeated a Juilliard student's lesson) There was never any doubt as to what she was going to be when she grew up.
It's for certain we want all the music I've posted, and will continue to post; hopefully all of the music wont be on different records. In the meantime, clue me in on anything you find interesting about her, or her music.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, I went to Circuit City for computer parts, and a salesman stopped me on the way in selling speakers, cheap speakers. "Can't this guy tell I'm an "Audiophile", we don't buy cheap speakers", that's what I was thinking anyway. "See me on the way out", I told him.
I don't know if I found the computer part or not, but sure enough, when I was on my way out, he stopped me again. "These speakers are really cheap", "How cheap", I inquired. When he told me, I said, "I'll take them."
Those were Polk Speakers, and that was 15 years ago; they were small 2 way bookshelf and sounded a lot better than I expected. Just recently I hooked too powerful an amplifier to them and one of the cross overs blew, speakers still good; I ordered a crossover from "Parts Express".
I use them in the workshop; but just imagine some speakers so cheap, I bought them when I had absolutely no intention of buying any speakers at all, and they lasted 15 years without any problems, and sounded good. Times have changed.
Enjoy the music
|
|
Rok, I'm a lot more of an "Audiophile" than I would like to admit; once I get into the music, that's all I want to hear, not noise and distortion. It's quite possible that we have gone as far as we can go with this music; nevertheless, we covered a lot of territory, but I think it's time to move on. What are your thoughts?
After we receive the CD's we can compare notes in regard to sonics. Hopefully they'll clean up Mary Lou's music like they did those 50's and 60's CD's. Next time I'll give the sonics more consideration before I get into the music. BTW those CD's you have are better than my original LP's, which has absolutely nothing to do with that CD vs LP fuss, but the fact that the music can be cleaned up before it's released.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, I could do without the singing as well, but that CD also contains "It Tain't Necessarily So", that might be one of the better CD's. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUdMoKXKAuoI want Mary Lou's music with today's sonics. When Bheki Mseleku play's Mary Lou's music, that's fine, but when he switches back to the South African thing, I could live without it. I think what we might be looking for, are today's artists who are inspired by Mary Lou's music; that would give us the best of both worlds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbRg8iMemy4This is one nice cut, a must have. Enjoy the music. |
Thank you Chazro for that timely contribution. Have you reviewed it yet? I'll review it the first chance I get.
Enjoy the music.
|
First and foremost, I want everyone to know that I am only expressing one person's thoughts opinions, and emotions, and I make no claim to speak for anyone else. This is my "subjective" opinion in regard to "Dave Douglas, Soul on Soul", which is a celebration of "Mary Lou Williams" music. This opinion in no way is a reflection of how good a jazz musician Mr. Douglas is, but how well this works in regard to Mary Lou Williams music.
Since I had a problem with the words "objective" and "subjective" with two past contributors, I'll spell it out again. People who lay claim to some kind of "objective" reality in regard to jazz, are saying you are not only supposed to hear what they hear, but the music is supposed to have the same affect on you as it did on them. I make no such claim; again, this is only one person's opinion, mine.
I listened to this music and could not hear how it related to Mary Lou Williams. While I have no objections to the fact that it was rated as a top jazz album, I could not hear the relationship to Mary Lou Williams.
Words are spoken and written, music is played and written, Mary Lou's music displayed subtle emotions, that could only have been displayed by her; it wasn't so much what she played, as it was the way she played it. Let me compare two musicians, her and Horace Silver, for example; since he wrote "Nica's Dream" and a number of other tunes, one could play his music, and call it a "celebration of Horace Silver", but in the case of Mary Lou, one would have to display her unique touch; in other words, one would have to duplicate "Mary Lou Williams" because it was "the way she played", as opposed to "what she played", and the only person who could play what she played, the way she played it, was "Mary Lou Williams"; consequently, this music fell flat in that regard.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, "My Mama Pinned a Rose on Me" is a real winner, both sonic and music wise; I've been in Mary Lou ville since it came today.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, there have been many others who were "historically" important, whose music I didn't like. Unfortunately, Mary lou was in that same time frame, and I didn't bother to listen to her music, big mistake, which we are now correcting. Although I had heard Mary Lou's name often, I had no idea she was so far ahead of her time. I can certainly understand how that reviewer could say her's was the best piano recording he had ever heard; she's connecting with me on a deep subconscious level.
I recall you posting a number of female jazz pianists, some who I vaguely recall, but none whose music I had gotten into; now I'll back track and maybe post some of them.
When you receive your CD's, do a detailed review including sonics. Me and your new speakers are eagerly awaiting this event; we can all go to "Mary Lou-Ville".
Enjoy the music.
|
I listened and I listened, then I listened some more; I never got tired of listening, and she never got tired of coming up with new ideas. We're talking primarily bass and piano, with 3 vocals out of 17 tracks; one where Mary Lou sings "My Mama Pinned a Rose On Me", she got a big kick out of that one.
Every tune affected me in different ways; after I found out "Dirge Blues" was written for President Kennedy, I began to hear it differently; it's a blues with the sad cadence of that flag draped coffin that was carried on a horse-drawn caisson to the U.S. Capitol to lie in State. That was a sad day that poor people will never forget.
The way she can go from blues to boogie, and back to blues, or blues and boogie at the same time, is absolutely amazing. While all great pianists stand out, every note of her's seem's to ring with "Here I am, Mary Lou Williams, the little girl whose Mama pinned a rose on her"; I mean she reminds me of no one I've ever heard before, or will hear after her.
I have no idea why I didn't discover her before now, or that I knew so little about her music, but I just forgave myself, because now I have her.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, I have a few LP's of Tania Maria, she seems to have gotten better; even though this is old, it's more recent than my LP's, I like it; but I seem to like everything "Brazilian".
Thanks for posting this, I will definitely add her to my collection in a big way; she takes to me to places where one can feel cool ocean breezes under swaying palms while sipping on a "pina colada", and gazing into romantic eyes. (I can dream can't I).
Enjoy the music.
|
Acman, you have cleared everything up in regard to the title "Soul On Soul" in regard to a tribute, or celebration of Mary Lou Williams music; it was my misinterpretation of the title. Evidently the music wasn't supposed to be reminiscent of her music, but a tribute and celebration of her music, which is different; yes it is a good album.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, I told you when I saw Trane and company live, he had totally lost McCoy Tyner and Alvin Jones; when they didn't know where he was, their only option was to stick with each other. Although it sounded like they were playing two different songs, that was McCoy and Alvin's only option. That was in the winter of 63 or 64.
Since they were together on most of the set, and it was only near the end of the set where Trane went to the "outer limits", that must have been in 63 when "My Favorite Things" was hot.
Enjoy the music.
|
Although I would very much enjoy a live performance by the "Dregs", new fusion is not something I'm currently adding. I appreciate your unique contributions, they're always interesting, keep em coming.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, are you going to let "Ramondo" AKA "Frogman" affect your play list review?
If it was good enough for your audience during the life of this thread, why should you care what Ramondo, Ramonron, or anyone else thinks? I missed it today.
Enjoy the music.
|
Rok, I call this "Bobby Timmons" jazz, it's just that unique; relaxed, soothing, and uncomplicated, but yet it reaches the depths of one's soul.
"Moanin" needs no words, the music communicates that low as you can go feeling, and there is nothing left to do but "Moan".
Keep em coming.
Enjoy the music.
|
