Jazz for aficionados

I didn't know anyone here dug Me'Shell NdegeOcello; check this one;



            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnJ8jXFzmJQ




Enjoy the music.

This is what I posted before the manure really hit the fan.


Let me repeat, "I still appreciate your musical wisdom, for those like Rok, and Acman who benefit from it".


We all know that you do not want to know anything about anything. What we don't know is why you are so ADAMANT about telling us this at every opportunity.

We get it.


  "Are you sure you get it"!?




Enjoy the music.

If everyone is sure we got it, whatever it is, then maybe I can continue doing what I was doing before my trolley jumped the tracks.

With everyone's permission, I would like to investigate Horace Silver's music, the same as I did with Donald Byrd; but I can't proceed until we are all in sync.



Enjoy the music.

Horace Taveres Silver had so many great compositions that some of them got little exposure; "The Outlaw" on the LP "Further Explorations" is almost unknown;


                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mx4h_IXm5Pc


This was so vivid that you could visualize "Billy the Kid" riding hard across the South western Bad lands, just two steps in front of the posse that was in hot pursuit.

My favorite version of "Senor Blues" is a live one also. Here it is; he expands this tune on this date, like nowhere else, and I could listen to it all night.


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8jFGFwOm7k


This tune is my favorite by Silver; it was written in honor of Pannonica de Koenigswarter, who was a patron of many jazz artists at that time. She had more tunes written in her honor than anyone else I can think of.


                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDrxzKYdwsA


              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lju13U1zEE


Since I couldn't decide which one of these I liked best, I pasted both of them, and now you can decide for me.





Enjoy the music.





                 

Learsfool, you went even farther than I was inferring to in regard to "imitating" improvised music. If this music was written out, do you think the classical musicians could play it, and make the music sound as though it wasn't faked?



        [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B83B1YiVcjE&list=PLUSRfoOcUe4aAPJ2Z2qXmrFfAN0GrCdBm[/url]



"Also you must remember that anything being improvised on the spot in a jazz club cannot be TOO complicated, otherwise it almost certainly wouldn't work, unless it was perhaps done by a group that was used to playing together all the time, and knew each other's musical tendencies very very well. And of course, as we have talked about before on this thread, the players all know the tune and the chord changes, so the melodic improvisation is taking place inside a very structured framework that all of the members of the group understand. And even if they don't know the tune at all, if they have what they call a "fake book" that includes it, they can use it and get through the tune."


The music I heard on a regular basis at jazz clubs was comparable to the music I've submitted on this post, and it was done by musicians in what you and Frogman called a "pick up band". In regard to "Too complicated", meaning comparable to the music I've submitted; I'll have to let you and others be the judge of that.

When "Monk" was queried what he thought was too many times about how to play something by a certain famous jazz musician, this was his response: "You a professional jazz musician, and you got a horn ain't cha". Meaning, blow the sucker, and it better come out right.

Although I was referring to a jazz musicians ability to improvise in my first post, I don't think I communicated this. (BTW, when is the last time you were at a jazz club?)






Enjoy the music.

 

Rok,


  "Naming some guy who plays locally in a club, is not a valid opinion."


Miles Davis was "Some guy who played locally in St. Louis", Clark Terry, was some guy who played locally in St. Louis. Grant Green, was some guy who played locally in St. Louis. You don't know it, but the the guy I was referring to was someone you raved about awhile ago.


So much for guys who played locally in St. Louis.





Enjoy the music.

Learsfool, this was a play that had been made into a movie, and I had already seen the movie; that's why I was so fascinated by these guys down in the pit, where they were out of sight for the audience, because the audience looked over and past them, at the play.

Although they were referred to as "doublers", they may have up to eight instruments each. I just looked at what the reed section consisted of: Alto sax; Tenor sax; Clarinet; Flute;and Piccolo, plus an oboe.

Now this was a dramatic play, with dramatic changes, and those guys in the pit stayed glued to that sheet of music in front of them while they changed instruments. I'm impressed by a musician who can really play any instrument; I was doubly impressed by these musicians who could play a multiplicity of instruments, and never even look at the instrument they were playing. (I guess I'm easily impressed)

While they're playing, their music had to correspond with what was going on, on stage. I wonder how many "doublers" does Frogman know. Now I remember Frogman explaining that once. I was impressed then, and just the thought of what they were doing impresses me now.


Phantom Of The Opera (orchestration according to The Really Useful Group, the company that holds the license)
Woodwind 1 (Piccolo/Flute)
Woodwind 2 (Flute/Clarinet)
Woodwind 3 (Oboe/Cor Anglais)
Woodwind 4 (Eb Clarinet/Bb Clarinet/Bass Clarinet)
Woodwind 5 (Bassoon)
3 French Horns
2 Trumpets
Trombone
Percussionist
2 Keyboards
Harp
Violins (7 recommended)
Violas (2 recommended)
Cello (2 recommended)
Contrabass
Total: 27 Players





Enjoy the music.

Schubert and Rok, 
Does anybody remember Weapons Of Mass Destruction in Iraq? After you get through that one, I got another one for you.

Rok, Frogman, and Schubert; this will take you to "Bird's best Bop"; which will lead into the documentary, "Celebrating Bird", that will go into a "Dexter Gordon Documentary"; all in all, this makes for a lot of music and entertainment.



                    [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B83B1YiVcjE&list=PLUSRfoOcUe4aAPJ2Z2qXmrFfAN0GrCdBm[/url]





Enjoy the music.

Learsfool, I don't mean to leave you hanging, it's just that I don't quite know how to respond to your posts without being misunderstood, and I'm hoping Frogman will chime in.

In the meantime, I'm going to sip some nog, and toast to you and all the rest of the aficionados.

Have a Merry Christmas, and enjoy the music.

In regard to "Senor Blues", when I said *he expands this tune on this date, like nowhere else,****; I was referring to his piano solo beginning at 4:10, and going all the way to the end, when he was backing Blue Mitchell. The one at Newport wasn't as clear, there was noticeable distortion.

On the "Senor Blues" I pasted, I liked Junior Cook's and Blue Mitchell's solo's much better; as well as Mr. Silver's piano where he got into a special groove beginning at 4:10, all the way to the end where he was backing Blue Mitchell. Notice at 9:11 where he digs in and hammers the piano like a drummer.

Before, I couldn't decide, but now I've decided, and I definitely like the "Nica's Dream"  on the "Jazz Messengers" better. Silver was on piano, on both LP's; but Blakey's was "languid" meaning slow and relaxed; this was due to the slower pace, and I most certainly liked Donald Byrd's and Hank Mobley's solos better on that "Nica's Dream".

The interesting fact is, the composer was on both versions; he just decided to play slower with the "Jazz Messengers".

In regard to "Song For My Father", I didn't know we were through with Mr. Silver; especially after the detail and depth I covered "Donald Byrd," but you won't get any argument out of me, about "Song For My Father" being his best, I'm especially attached to that tune.

After Leon Thomas's Father's funeral, he sang that at a club, and it brought tears to my eyes because I knew his father, and I could see his smiling face.



                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSYwGEiowHg



Enjoy the music.



     

Frogman, the yodeling is a Leon Thomas signature thing. The only other yodeling I ever recall before him was that cowboy thing, and there certainly isn't any semblance between the two. Although I recall Rok making the same comment, I like it.

When he sounds like Joe Williams, which is how he sounded when he started with Count Basie, is what I like the least; it's too commercial for my taste.

In the comments section, most of the people stated they liked the yodeling. Someone said he was inspired by African Pigmies, but I don't know anything about that. Someone else said it was an acquired taste thing, but I liked it the first time I heard it; it definitely sets him apart from the crowd, and I think he should have focused on what set him apart from the crowd as opposed to just singing.

Since "Nica's Dream" is my favorite tune by Horace Silver, I liked both versions a lot, but the messengers with Donald Byrd and Hank Mobley was definitely my favorite.

I interpreted your statement as meaning we have covered all there is of significance by Horace Silver. Feel free to take us in any direction you choose.


Enjoy the music.

Frogman,  you consider the version headed by Silver better than the "Jazz Messenger's"" on "Nica's Dream"? I'm still trying to pick up Art Blakey's sloppy drumming that makes the messengers version of "Nica's Dream" sound sleepy. Maybe you could give me the time where I should listen.

No "silly bickering" I'm just trying to be a more astute listener; especially since you and Rok said I don't want to learn anything, and you're the master musician. Now on Leon Thomas's yodeling, a bit much this time, he took it to the point of distraction, you stated. I listened to it a second time and he began his signature yodeling at 1:30 and carries it to 2:38; now that's just over a minute, when the song is 5:21 long, and according to you, just over a minute is to the point of distraction.

I know how much you appreciate clarity in communications, and that's what I'm striving for. I also think you stated that Blue Mitchell's solo sounded better than Donald Byrd's solo in the same spot. As good as Blue Mitchell is, he's no Donald Byrd, and that's not a subjective evaluation, it comes under objective evaluation, as almost any jazz aficionado will tell you.




Enjoy the music.

The reason that tune by Silver and Harris is almost unknown, is because it in no ways compares with their best works.

There are many yardsticks by which a jazz musician is judged and Blue Mitchell doesn't measure up to Donald Byrd, in that solo, or in body of works.

The Jazz Messengers were an influential jazz combo that existed for over thirty-five years beginning in the early 1950s as a collective, and ending when long-time leader and founding drummer Art Blakey died in 1990. Blakey led or co-led the group from the outset. "Art Blakey" and "Jazz Messengers" became synonymous over the years, though Blakey did lead non-Messenger recording sessions and played as a sideman for other groups throughout his career.

The group evolved into a proving ground for young jazz talent. While veterans occasionally re-appeared in the group, by and large, each iteration of the Messengers included a lineup of new young players. Having the Messengers on one's resume was a rite of passage in the jazz world, and conveyed immediate bona fide.

How could the "Jazz Messengers" accomplish this if Art Blakey was such a sloppy lazy drummer? And you still haven't explained how Leon Thomas's just over a minute of yodeling was to the point of distraction.



Enjoy the music.

Frogman;

Let me repeat, "I still appreciate your musical wisdom, for those like Rok, and Acman who benefit from it".

That was my post on 04-02-2016 7:11pm.

This was Rok's post immediately following that post.
 
We all know that you do not want to know anything about anything. What we don't know is why you are so ADAMANT about telling us this at every opportunity.

We get it.

This was after my comment about Art Blakey; "Before or after the beat".

And you're still talking about Blakey's "Lazy sloppy drumming"


I think this will end after the swallows come back to Capistrano, or the cows come home; whichever is first.




Enjoy the music.

If you say you don't like Leon Thomas's yodeling for just over a minute, when yodeling is his signature thing; that would mean that you just don't like Leon Thomas; and that most certainly would come under the "subjective" heading, but to say you like Leon Thomas, but not his minutes worth of yodeling sounds insincere. Since you want you're statement to come under the "subjective" heading, just say you don't like Leon Thomas.


Enjoy the music.

Blue Mitchell was a very good trumpet player; but his record pales in comparison to Donald Byrd.


Mitchell was born and raised in Miami, Florida. He began playing trumpet in high school, where he acquired his nickname, Blue.

After high school he played in the rhythm and blues ensembles of Paul Williams, Earl Bostic, and Chuck Willis. After returning to Miami he was noticed by Cannonball Adderley, with whom he recorded for Riverside Records in New York in 1958.

He then joined the Horace Silver Quintet, playing with tenor saxophonist Junior Cook, bassist Gene Taylor and drummer Roy Brooks. Mitchell stayed with Silver's group until the band's break-up in 1964, after which he formed a group with members from the Silver quintet, substituting the young pianist Chick Corea for Silver and replacing Brooks, who had fallen ill, with drummer Al Foster. This group produced a number of records for Blue Note. It disbanded in 1969, after which Mitchell joined and toured with Ray Charles until 1971.

From 1971 to 1973 Mitchell performed with John Mayall, appearing on Jazz Blues Fusion and subsequent albums. From the mid-70s he recorded and worked as a session man in the genres noted previously, performed with the big band leaders Louie Bellson, Bill Holman and Bill Berry and was principal soloist for Tony Bennett and Lena Horne. Other band leaders Mitchell recorded with include Lou Donaldson, Grant Green, Philly Joe Jones, Jackie McLean, Hank Mobley, Johnny Griffin, Al Cohn, Dexter Gordon and Jimmy Smith. Blue Mitchell kept his hard-bop playing going with the Harold Land quintet up until his death from cancer on May 21, 1979, in Los Angeles, at the age of 49.

A lot of alto sax players are very good, until you compare them with Charles "yardbird" Parker; you get my drift.





Enjoy the music.

Frogman, if you like Leon Thomas, what songs or albums do you like by him?

This whole "bruha" started because I stated "Before the beat or after the beat; what difference does it make, and you have never pointed how Blakey is either; you simply stated you didn't like his lazy sloppy playing.

I take it you are referring to the "Jazz Messengers" when you mentioned Wiki. Is that your way of dodging "Before or after the beat" in regard to Art Blakey's "sloppy drumming"?

Frogman, almost this entire post came from "Wiki", does that make you feel better or meet your criteria?

03-29-2016 12:38am


Calling all aficionados: I'm trying to get organized on this "New music hunt". This time, we go through a musician phase by phase, evaluating each change as we go. Hopefully I have Donald Byrd in order so that we can go year by year, happy listening.
   
Donald Byrd: Low Life
From Fuego (Blue Note, 1959)

I could have started with a song far earlier in Byrd’s career but my point here is to establish his bop/post-bop certifiers with a spry, swinging tune that reminds me of Bobby Timmons best work.

Donald Byrd: Cristo Redentor
From A New Perspective (Blue Note, 1963)

Byrd + gospel choir = sublime. And cinematic, no? Couldn’t you imagine this in some spaghetti western where our hero walks atop a sand dune, the sun setting at his back? Have I been watching too many Leone films?

Also: best cover ever.

Donald Byrd: House of the Rising Sun
From Up With Donald Byrd (Verve, 1964)

The best known song off this album is probably the cover of Herbie Hancock’s “Cantaloupe Island” but thanks to US3, I can’t really bear to listen to it much. I do like this cover of “House of the Rising Sun” though. No only does it draw from the same choral backing that we heard on A New Perspective but you can begin to hear the hints of the coming soul-jazz movement. It’s the small, subtle things in the rhythm that you’ll hear even more so on…

Donald Byrd: Blackjack
From Blackjack (Blue Note, 1967)

And here we are. It’s not upside your dome funky but clearly, it’s working in that vein, especially with the hard hammer of Cedar Walton’s piano. But heck, let’s take it a step further and let the drummer get some.

Donald Byrd: Weasil
From Fancy Free (Blue Note, 1969)

The first thing that strikes you is that Duke Pearson is tickling the Rhodes on here, apparently the first time Byrd allowed an electric piano to roll in. Combine that with the more aggressive breakbeats by drummer Joe Chambers and “Weasil” belongs firmly in the soul-jazz era that’s since been enshrined through comps like Blue Break Beats and Jazz Dance Classics.

Donald Byrd: The Little Rasti
From Ethiopian Knights (Blue Note, 1972)

To me, Ethiopian Knights represents the deepest Byrd got into this era of the soul-jazz sound before moving more towards proto-disco fusion style. Nearly 18 minutes long, nothing “little” about this.

Donald Byrd: Where Are We Going?
From Black Byrd (Blue Note, 1972)

With this album, Byrd minted a smash and established himself as one of the masterminds of a sound that blended jazz, soul, funk and disco. Black Byrd was, in many ways, a total blueprint for the next five years, not just of Byrd’s career, but the direction of jazz and R&B as a whole. For me, I definitely hear some What’s Going On? elements at play but the sheer smoothness of the track also hints at what you’d hear with yacht rock by the late 1970s. It’s all right here.

By the way, I’m going to skip over Street Lady even though it was an important/successful album, yada yada. The only thing I want to say is that the title track is an interesting “throwback” to Byrd’s sound from about five years before. It’s like a retro-hard-bop tune.

Donald Byrd: Wind Parade
From Places and Spaces (Blue Note, 1975)

The Mizell brothers era of Byrd’s career is perhaps his best known to most hip-hop fans given the sheer number of samples that emerged from it. Anyone up on my site should already have “Wind Parade” in heavy rotation but this is one case where I can’t not include it in here. Any song that helps power one of the greatest remixes in hip-hop history deserves that much.

The Blackbyrds: Mysterious Vibes
From Action (Fantasy, 1977)

At some point in the early 1970s Byrd landed a production deal with Fantasy Records and from that, he assembled a group of former Howard University students and they became the Blackbyrds. By the mid 1970s, though Byrd was still recording on his own, he was arguably experiencing more success in producing other groups, especially the Blackbyrds who had a string of hits I’m sure all of you are familiar. “Rock Creek Park” remains a constant staple for any good disco set but I threw in “Mysterious Vibes” here because 1) I like the name and 2) it’s groovy.

The 3 Pieces: Shortnin’ Bread
From Vibes of Truth (Fantasy, 1975)

The 3 Pieces were a short-lived group from the D.C. area that Byrd also produced, albeit not to anywhere near the same success as the Blackbyrds. Pity since the album yielded at least two strong cuts: the jazz dance track above as well as the more mid-tempo crossover track, “Backed Up Against the Wall.”

The Blackbyrds: Wilford’s Gone
From Cornbread, Earl and Me (Fantasy, 1975)

This seems as good a place to close out: the dark, moody, melancholy groove of “Wilford’s Gone” from the soundtrack of Cornbread, Earl and Me. Yet another gem shaped by the hand of Donald Byrd.


Enjoy the music.

   

Frogman, by the way, the information on "Blue Mitchell"  was from "Wiki", am I Kosure according to your protocol?  Now that I've revealed it, or is there some other process I have to go through?

Re Thomas (again): with all due respect, you're grabbing at straws. I like Thomas and I have said so. I wonder how HE would have felt knowing that his yodeling was the only thing there was to like about his singing; according to O-10 of course. This is a ridiculous discussion.

Frogman, this is the most ridiculous statement you have made up until this date.

Rok, that's a very good question, and I think it got lost after the beat, or was that before the beat.


Enjoy the music.

Rok, this is just like old times; Leon would enjoy this: me, him, and his brother on one side of Missouri Ave, and the Gatlin brothers on the other side, daring each other to cross.

Acman, "Blue Mitchell" Graffiti must be in high demand; the CD is listed for $26.93 used. I like it, maybe I'll get it.


Enjoy the music.

After all of this, it would really be a waste not to understand "before and after the beat", but it would have to be explained by example. In regard to a "yardstick", there would have to be a number of them, and finally to take them all into consideration; for example, one of them would be how many albums an artist has made as leader. Another would be how many tunes he has composed; but since I'm a total "subjectivist" that's sort of moot because then we would have an "objective" measurement of music, and I say which ever artist you like the best, is the best.

Horace Silver is coming after you have explained "before and after the beat"


Enjoy the music.

Frogman, you're turning what should be a pleasurable experience into a job; I'm retired and have no desire to work, not even for money. Call me when this gets to be a fun thing to do.


Enjoy the music.

Frogman, I've liked music all my life. When I became interested in audio equipment, I subscribed to "Stereo Review"; Julian Hirsch of "Hirsch-Houck Laboratories" was my guru, and his philosophy was; "if you can't measure it, it ain't worth talking about"; consequently I purchased my audio equipment based on specifications.

When my Phase Linear 4000 went on the blink, I decided to find out what those crazy people called "audiophiles" who paid crazy money for stereo equipment were all about. That's when I visited my first "High end salon", and I was blown away; this thing called a CJ PV 10 was a little pre-amp that sounded better than anything I had heard before, although it's specs were not as good as my Phase Linear.

After that, I discovered I could hear beyond what any test equipment could measure; that's when I became what I call a "subjectivist". Now, I base everything on my "subjective" senses, and it works for me, and I'll give you an example of how this worked just yesterday.

As you know, reel to reel tape decks are very complex pieces of equipment. My "pitch control" quit functioning properly and needed adjusting. The instructions in the repair manual were straight forward and simple, except for one thing; I didn't have the repair equipment.

(1) connect a digital counter to the output jack.
(2) Set tape speed selector to 38cm/s
(3) Set pitch control to on in center position.
(4) Playback test tape QZZOW380EX (no problem if I had one)
(5) Read the output frequency, and confirm that output frequency is 3000hz
(6) If it is not 3000hz, adjust VR904 so that it becomes 3000HZ
(7) After adjustment described above, turning pitch control to maximum and minimum position, confirm that more than 3180 hz is obtained at its maximum position,and less than 2820hz at its minimum position.

As easy as falling off a log, providing you have the test equipment.

I put on a Nina Simone tape, plugged my earphones in, and proceeded to adjust VR 904. This was a live recording, and when I could hear the tinkle of ice cubs in the background, I knew I had it right.

I look and see with my third eye, and listen with my inner ear; my "subjective" senses do the measuring, and that's how I function.


Enjoy the music.

Since "Wiki" has become a debate point, instead of posting anything "Wiki", I'll just post the link.

This is Horace Silver discography;

   
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Silver_discography


Horace Silver biography link;


          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Silver



It seems that "Love and Peace", a tribute to Horace Silver; Dee Dee Bridgewater,done in 1994, was the last credited to Horace Silver. This is "Song For My Father" by Dee Dee.



      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otcHh-90eo4



Enjoy the music.

"Nica's Dream" is very important to me for sentimental reasons. Frogman stated that his preferred version is the template by which all others should be judged "to paraphrase him" I strongly disagree.

This might be my favorite; he described it as "sleepy and lacking energy" If that's not provocative, I don't know what is. After that statement, I challenge his credibility as a "Jazz Aficionado".

Now what makes his statement so absurd, is that Horace Silver is on piano on both version. Figure that?


        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lju13U1zEE



The one below is by "Dee Dee Bridgewater"



        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwvuGJPQBNw


I have no idea how you compare the two, but Frogman will figure out a way.




Enjoy the music.

"Silver's own version of Nica's Dream is my favorite of the two; by a long shot! Blakey's version is too slow. There is no law that says that a tune can't work played at a tempo different from the one the composer intended, but this is a case when the composer's tempo is so clearly the better one that it makes Blakey's version sound sleepy by comparison and lacking energy. Then, there's Blue Mitchell's solo on Silver's version; that alone makes it the better one for me."

Above is exactly what you posted; when "Horace Silver" composed the tune; Horace Silver played piano on both versions; except, to me, Blakey and "The Jazz Messengers" kick it way up. How do you know that the composer didn't decide to slow it down a notch, since he was the same on both versions?

Evidently you're accustomed to teaching grade school kids who can't afford to get provoked. I'm going to leave it at that.

If you think Mitchell's version is better than Donald Byrds, put them up for a vote; we don't have no dictators here.


"either you are a person of extremely limited intellect to continually misunderstand and/or distort the meaning of things or you’re simply an ass"

If that's not provocative, I don't know what is; this can continue until the cows come home, and since I'm in St. Louis, that could take awhile.



Enjoy the music.

Frogman, could you kindly respond to the post just above your last post?

"Should have stayed with Julien", you got that right. I can no longer afford the Kool aid, but once you start, you can't stop.

I long for those good old Stereo Review days, I still have a few; I really get a kick out of the low prices of equipment. Even today, the music reviews are better than "stereophile", and I really got a kick out of those "Rodriguez" cartoons.


      http://www.angelfire.com/in3/hifijohn/rod.html




Enjoy the music.

Acman posted "Graffiti Blues" by Blue Mitchell on 4/11/96, and it was released in 1973. Me and my buddies had what we called the jazz posse in 1973. When one of us bought a new album, the first thing we did, was to get on the phone and call for a gathering of "The Jazz Posse". Of course we did a lot more than just review a record, maybe we sampled some good wine, or whatever else that was available for sampling; anyway we really looked forward to these gatherings. One of the reasons I'm mentioning this, is because of the "alert" resources I had available in 1973, anytime a boss LP came up that I didn't know about, there was a very good reason for it; either it wasn't released at that time, or there was almost no exposure.

Another reason I'm mentioning this is because someone asked why didn't some of us buy "new" music. When I'm constantly discovering music like this, I don't have funds for new music, another reason is, this is so much better than "most" new music; not all new music of course, but rarely has anyone come up with any new music that's worthy of my limited funds.

Who was the best; Donald Byrd or Blue Mitchell?
Does it really matter?



Enjoy the music

Rok, did you check out the link on my post at 4:58PM ?

Acman, I thank you for another fantastic contribution; Horace Silver is really digging in on this one; the way he's sweating, I hope that piano is waterproof. Everybody is playing at such a high energy level; I don't see how they can maintain the pace. Each individual artist is a star on this one. It's nice that "Song For My father" fell in after this one.

Keep up the good work; with everybody contributing we're getting everything we would want as a tribute to Horace Silver without all of it coming from one person.


Enjoy the music.

Alex, I really enjoyed those clean recordings of Louis Armstrong; it's funny, but I'm so accustomed to the noise, clicks, and pops when I hear Louis Armstrong, that clean recordings of him sound strange.

In regard to the trumpet players, we share the same likes and dislikes; I think it's foolish to get in a who is the best argument, but I seem to get drawn into them sometime. I have heard some very good sounds made by FH, but he's a long way from my favorite.



Enjoy the music.

This is from "Silver N' Percussion" I think it's fairly interesting. It came out in 77 and not too bad for that time frame in his career. Babatunde Olatunji on percussion makes this one worth a listen.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOgx7QBPXMw


Here's one with voices "The Spirit of the Zulu";

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naP3KC-TWkg&index=3&list=PL0yFebGRzwN7ea9gznR_q1ZHhVjLbe_wG



And here's the "Wiki" scoop on that LP


          .wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_%27n_Percussion


I think it's certainly worth acquiring if you don't have it.




Enjoy the music.

Frogman, if there's anything you should have learned by now, it's "you can't teach an old dog new tricks".

Here's my thoughts for the day for you "The sun will come out tommorow"


Enjoy the music.

"Too third world"; but I like third world, a drum hasn't been made that I don't like. I admit the guy on the cover didn't look much like Horace Tavares Silver, until you took a closer look, but everything must change.

I've been listening to "Bird's Best Bop", and I must admit, that was quite a switch from "Silver N' Percussion". That compilation brought up one question "How could one man turn the universe around in such a short time"? Birds music never gets old, and it's the only "Bop" I still like.

Enjoy the music.

Alex, very good contribution.

"Blue Note" pushed their artists to produce original, visceral jazz of the sort attainable only with time and hard work. The music that arose in this atmosphere was like no other."

Does that mean that "Blue Note" can take credit for the music that was produced? "Blue Note" selected the artists who had a very rare talent, that no amount of hard work could produce. I was fortunate enough to know two of those artists personally, and my friend who didn't practice that summer was one of them.

"There he goes again, stirring up trouble".




Enjoy the music.

The reality of a any highly regarded jazz artist; they had the talent, plain and simple; "either you got it, or you no got it". I can think of an artist who got world wide publicity, went to Julliard, played with the very best jazz artists around, but didn't measure up when he had his own group, and got out on his own. He could play the trumpet better than anyone around; nobody disagreed with that, not even other professional trumpet players, but leading your own group means coming up with your own original music that's good "sometime"; like Horace Taveres Silver.


SUBMITTED BY PETER.CROSBY ON DECEMBER 31, 2008 - 11:47AM

On December 29th, Freddie Hubbard, one of the last great jazz trumpet players, died after a heart attack at age 70. Growing up, I was a huge fan of Freddie. I used to listen to his records and play along (did I mention that I started playing trumpet when I was nine? Cuz I did).

I liked his fat tone and his melodic solos, but ironically, hated his song choices. In fact, I felt that he played best when he soloed on other people’s songs (“Zanzibar” by Billy Joel, for example).

But what upsets me the most about his death is that the Media—when they learn a jazz musician has died or done something newsworthy—immediately phones up the only jazz musician they’ve ever heard of, Wynton Marsalis, to comment. I swear they have the guy on speed-dial.

And, while Wynton is a skilled musician and brilliant self-marketer, he is not a brilliant jazz musician (unlike his older brother, Bradford). You see, whereas Freddie’s playing style was languid, relaxed and fat, Wynton’s style is overly busy, uptight, stilted, soulless, cold and technical. As a classical trumpeter, he’s extremely proficient. But Wynton’s forays into jazz are like Paris Hilton’s forays into acting—painful and unnecessary. So asking him to comment on jazz is like asking Britney Spears to comment on parenting.

What’s worse, he doesn’t just show-off by playing too many notes himself, he teaches upcoming young trumpeters to show-off by playing too many notes, too. It’s like the way Whitney Houston, albeit unwittingly, taught a generation of young girls such as Christina and Britney how to “sing” through their noses.

This was driven home for me when I recently attended a holiday concert at Davies Symphony Hall in San Francisco by Irving Mayfield. I had never heard of him before, but I wasn’t thrilled to learn that he was a protege of Wynton’s. Still, since Marsalis said he studied Freddie’s playing style without learning anything, I hoped that perhaps Mr. Mayfield was an equally poor student of Wynton’s playing style. No such luck. Mayfield has the same note-heavy, technical approach his mentor does.

Sadly, aside from Arturo Sandoval, I have found few living horn players who can play at the level of past jazz trumpet greats like Lee Morgan, Blue Mitchell, Clifford Brown, Chet Baker, or Fats Navarro.

And now, to that list, I must regrettably add Freddie.



Although these are Peter Crosby's thoughts, they are "sympatico" with my own.




Enjoy the music.

Rok, the aristocracy has made the decision in regard to Wynton Marsalis; I guess that's because he can play classical music and went to Juilliard.

Everybody,  including me, put Wynton in the class with all the past mentioned great trumpet players when he left Blakey; it was Wynton's albums when he got out on his own, that told who he was; he was a we wanted him to be, that didn't have it.

The aristocracy needs some kind of hand in the works on jazz; the aristocracy wants a foothold in everything, but at the end of the day,  the same people who have always had the final decision in who's who in jazz still have it, and what the aristocracy says is "counterfeit".  

They can put it in every news headline if they want to, and it will still be "counterfeit".  Who's who in jazz is determined by the people on the street, not by the aristocracy.


Enjoy the music.

Acman, we absolutely do not look at life from different angles, my friend "according to Wiki" started when he was a child, and worked all of his life, that's all he did. That summer he was was performing three nights a week and had absolutely no need to practice.

My point is; the average person could work from the time he was born until he died, and never be able to do what "my friend" did. Have you ever seen and heard, some of the very best improvising jazz musicians perform; not one sheet of musical paper in sight. Now I know there are many who say, "they just couldn't read music" and I say to them, "they just can't improvise jazz at a high enough level to be performing in front of a crowd of critical jazz fans".

No Acman we don't have different points of view, just different observations of reality.

I forgot to mention, he performed on a stage "live" in front of what has to be one of the biggest crowds in the world, that's the stage under the arch in St. Louis on the 4th of July.



Enjoy the music.

Frogman, I noticed that misspelling as soon as I saw it, and I knew you would point it out, but that didn't change what he said.

Frogman, although I had seen the movie and read the book, the play was the most impressive of them all; and the most impressive aspect of the play was the music; and that was the most impressive for me, because of the "reed doubler" down in the pit.

I was seated second row, far left, and I could see him pulling different horns out of a rack while his eyes were focused on the sheet of music in front of him. Any musician who can blow sax very well is impressive to me; but this guy could blow sax, clarinet, oboe, and I don't remember what else, but he was fantastic on every instrument he blew. I'm sure the audience, who couldn't see the musicians in the pit, thought each different instrument was played by a different musician.

When there was fast jazzy action on stage, the music was fast and jazzy; when it switched to jungle music, the musicians in the pit changed instruments, and instantly transported you to the congo.

By the way, the name of this play was "Raisin", which is a very dramatic play with fantastic music that ran the gamut of emotions; from "Measure The Valleys" to "Alaiyo", African music that might have required a flute. Whatever, the "doublers" switched instruments and played it.

Frogman, could you get the details on the play and explain to us specifics about the doublers. Here is the link to that play




              [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raisin_(musical)[/url]



Thank you

Enjoy the music.

Frogman, something went wrong with that link, but here is the correct one

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaRaisinOriginal Cast RecordingMusicJudd WoldinLyricsRobert BrittanBookRobert B. Nemiroff
Charlotte ZaltzbergBasisLorraine Hansberry's play
A Raisin in the SunProductions1973 BroadwayAwardsTony Award for Best Musical

Raisin is a musical theatre adaptation of the Lorraine Hansberry play A Raisin in the Sun, with songs by Judd Woldin and Robert Brittan, and a book by Robert Nemiroff (who was Hansberry's former husband) and Charlotte Zaltzberg.

The story concerns an African-American family in Chicago in 1951. The musical was nominated for nine Tony Awards, winning two, including Best Musical, and the Broadway production ran for 847 performances.

Contents  [hide]

• 1Synopsis
• 2Songs
• 3Characters and original cast
• 4Productions
• 5Critical reception
• 6Awards and nominations
  • 6.1Original Broadway production
• 7References
• 8External links

Synopsis[edit]

In Chicago in 1951, an African-American family, Ruth Younger, her husband Walter Lee Younger, their son Travis and Walter's mother are living in a cramped apartment. Walter is a chauffeur but thinks that his father's life insurance policy proceeds will buy a way to a better life. He plans on buying a liquor store, but his mother Mama Lena Younger is against the selling of liquor. Tensions arise as Walter tries to convince Mama Lena to forget her dream of buying the family its own small house ("A Whole Lotta Sunlight").

Walter decides to make the deal for the liquor store and signs the papers with his partners Bobo Jones and Willie Harris. Beaneatha Younger, Walter's sister, is in college and is romantically involved with an African exchange student, Asagai. When Walter comes home drunk he joins Beaneatha in a celebratory dance, picturing himself as a chieftain ("African Dance"). Ruth and Walter fight about their future but they reconcile ("Sweet Time"). Mama arrives to announce that she has bought a house in the white neighborhood of Clybourne Park, and Walter leaves in anger.

Walter has not returned home and Mama finds him in a bar. She apologizes and gives him an envelope filled with money. She asks him to deposit $3,000 for Beaneatha's college education, and tells him the rest is for him. As the family packs to move, a representative of Clybourne Park, Karl Lindner, arrives and offers to buy back the house. Walter, Ruth and Beaneatha mockingly tell Mama of the enlightened attitude of their new neighbors. Just then Bobo arrives to tell the family the bad news that Willie has run off with the money. This forces Walter to contact Lindner and accept the offer to buy back the house. Although Beaneatha berates her brother for not standing up for principles, Mama shows compassion and understanding ("Measure the Valleys").

When Lindner arrives, Walter announces that the family will, after all, move to the new house.

Songs[edit]Act I

• "Prologue" - Company
• "Man Say" - Walter Lee Younger
• "Whose Little Angry Man" - Ruth Younger
• "Runnin' to Meet the Man" - Walter Lee Younger and Company
• "A Whole Lotta Sunlight" - Mama
• "Booze" - Bar Girl, Bobo Jones, Walter Lee Younger, Willie Harris and Company
• "Alaiyo" - Asagai and Beneatha Younger
• "African Dance - Beneatha Younger, Walter Lee Younger and Company
• "Sweet Time" - Ruth Younger and Walter Lee Younger
• "You Done Right" - Walter Lee Younger

Act II

• "He Come Down This Morning" - Pastor, Pastor's Wife, Mama and Mrs. Johnson
• "It's a Deal" - Walter Lee Younger
• "Sweet Time (Reprise)" - Ruth Younger and Walter Lee Younger
• "Sidewalk Tree" - Travis Younger
• "Not Anymore" - Walter Lee Younger, Ruth Younger and Beneatha Younger
• "Alaiyo (Reprise)" - Asagai
• "It's a Deal (Reprise)" - Walter Lee Younger
• "Measure the Valleys" - Mama
• "He Come Down This Morning (Reprise)" - Company

Characters and original cast[edit]

• Ruth Younger — Ernestine Jackson
• Travis Younger — Ralph Carter
• Mrs. Johnson — Helen Martin
• Walter Lee Younger — Joe Morton
• Beneatha Younger — Debbie Allen
• Mama Lena Younger — Virginia Capers
• Joseph Asagai — Robert Jackson

Productions[edit]

The musical began a pre-Broadway tryout on May 30, 1973 at the Arena Stage in Washington, D.C..[1] It premiered on Broadway at the 46th Street Theatre on October 18, 1973, transferred to the Lunt-Fontanne Theatre on January 13, 1975, and closed on December 8, 1975 after 847 performances. Donald McKayle was the director and choreographer, and the cast featured Virginia Capers as Lena, Joe Morton as Walter, Ernestine Jackson as Ruth, Debbie Allen as Beneatha, Ralph Carter as Travis, Helen Martin as Mrs. Johnson, and Ted Ross as Bobo. Capers later starred in the national tour. The production won the Tony Award for Best Musical.[2]

The Long Beach Performing Arts Center in Long Beach, California presented the musical in February and March 2003.

The Court Theatre in Chicago staged the musical from September 14 through October 22, 2006. The cast included Ernestine Jackson, who formerly had played Ruth, in the role of Lena Younger.[3]

Critical reception[edit]

In reviewing a performance in Washington (Arena Stage), Clive Barnes of The New York Times called it "a warm and loving work."[1] In his review of the Broadway production, Barnes noted that the book of the musical "is perhaps even better than the play.... 'Raisin' is one of those unusual musicals that should not only delight people who love musicals, but might also well delight people who don't".[4]

After the Broadway opening, Walter Kerr of The New York Times wrote, "The strength of Raisin lies in the keen intelligence and restless invention of a musical underscoring that has simply invaded Lorraine Hansbury's once tightly-knit, four-walled, close-quartered play, A Raisin in the Sun, plucking the walls away, spilling the action onto the streets with a jittery down-flight of strings, mocking and matching realistic speech with frog-throated sass from the heavy-breathing viols."[5] The New York Times also reported that there are "ovations every night at the 46th Street Theatre for 'Raisin'. But they are for the cast, not individual performers. There are no stars.... It was at the Arena Theater in Washington, where the play first opened this spring, that Mr. McKayle said he started evolving the ensemble-acting concept."[6]

Awards and nominations[edit]Original Broadway production[edit]YearAwardCategoryNomineeResult1974Tony Award[7]Best MusicalWonBest Book of a MusicalRobert Nemiroff and Charlotte ZaltzbergNominatedBest Original ScoreJudd Woldin and Robert BrittanNominatedBest Performance by a Leading Actor in a MusicalJoe MortonNominatedBest Performance by a Leading Actress in a MusicalVirginia CapersWonBest Performance by a Featured Actor in a MusicalRalph CarterNominatedBest Performance by a Featured Actress in a MusicalErnestine JacksonNominatedBest Direction of a MusicalDonald McKayleNominatedBest ChoreographyNominatedTheatre World AwardRalph CarterWonErnestine JacksonWonJoe MortonWon1975Grammy AwardBest Score From the Original Cast Show AlbumRobert Brittan, Judd Woldin (composers);Thomas Z. Shepard(producer); the original cast (Virginia Capers, Joe Morton, Ernestine Jackson, Robert Jackson, Deborah Allen, Helen Martin)WonReferences[edit]

1. ^ Jump up to:a b Barnes, Clive. "Stage:Capitol's 'Raisin'", The New York Times, May 31, 1973, p. 49
2. Jump up^ "Sing 'Em All! The Tony Awards Songbook". 2008-04-30. Retrieved 2009-08-15.
3. Jump up^ 'Raisin' at the Court Theatre, 2006 www.courttheatre.org, accessed August 15, 2009
4. Jump up^ "The musical is 'Raisin' and it has come to Broadway via Washington's Arena Stage". Barnes, Clive. "Theater: 'Raisin' in Musical Form", The New York Times, October 19, 1973, p. 59
5. Jump up^ Kerr, Walter. "Raisin is Sweet, Could Be Sweeter", The New York Times, October 28, 1973, p. 127
6. Jump up^ Campbell, Barbara. "Cast of 'Raisin' Works as Close as a Bunch of Grapes", The New York Times, October 27, 1973, p. 20
7. Jump up^ Tony Awards, 1974 tonyawards.com, accessed August 15, 2009

External links[edit]

• Theatre portal
 
• African Americans portal
 
• Discrimination portal
 
• 1970s portal

• Raisin at the Internet Broadway Database
• Raisin synopsis, production information at guidetomusicaltheatre.com
• 'Raisin' published script
• New York Times obituary, Nemiroff, July 19, 1991

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Tony Award for Best Musical (1949–1975)[show]

• v
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Lorraine Hansberry's A Raisin in the Sun (1959)Categories: 

• All-Black cast Broadway shows
• 1973 musicals
• Broadway musicals
• Tony Award for Best Musical

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"There is one thing I know about this country for sure. Money talks, BS walks. He would not be where he is if he were not the best man for the job. Too much is at stake for BS."

Those are the truest words you ever spoke, "Whatever the aristocracy says, is what they say it is; end of all arguments.


Enjoy the music.

Since I don't even know how to spell the word, it's for sure I don't qualify.


Enjoy the music.

Frogman,  I just realized your problem, you were the  "Grand Puba" of jazz on Audiogon until after years of this thread, now you feel threatened.  As far as I'm concerned, you are still "The Grand Puba" of jazz on Audiogon.