Frogman, I'm glad you're happy in your world of trick mirrors and illusions. When politicians can illegally rob us and our treasury blind with impunity, (endless wars, and commodity market manipulation) incredibly so during the Bush Administration. Genocide! That's what you watched for 3 days on national television, when you watched the Katrina Aftermath. That was the case of "one" depraved politician who put "chinks" in the way of anyone trying to help people at the Dome, as well as African Americans drowning all over the place. The military and foreign governments were prevented from helping; you can look this up on the internet. That depraved politician became "Your Government". I've written about this so much, that now I'm the victim; one foot on a banana peel, and the other over eternity. All of our cities are "hell holes", where the rich live in isolation. Deprived people become depraved people; let Cardi B tell you how she did it; meaning to escape poverty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEGccV-NOm8When our cities switch places from being murder capitals of the world; St. Louis today, Detroit tomorrow, "Nola" the next day; not exactly an environment for most arts. |
Rok, here he is again; Frogman at his nerve wracking best; since he can not be part of the solution, he chooses to be part of the problem. Notice how he uses his "divide and conquer" tactic, by stating the obvious, "There is no best" because that’s a personal preference; guess what Frogman, the sky is blue; did you forget to add that? But there is a sideman that you can choose to put the spotlight on, and Bob Cranshaw was certainly a candidate.
"The best" might be a meaningless question, but it is for certain your post is a meaningless post; it contributed nothing to this thread or the conversation.
"The reason that this is, as the questioner states, a “great record” (and it is) is that every sideman contributes to it’s greatness and has an equally important musical role"
Here again, "The sky is blue"; you are so observant Frogman.
Imagine the record without saxophone to fill out the harmony of the melodies, or without the drums and only bass and piano, or without the piano and the resulting absence of harmonic underpinning, etc. Or, imagine different players in any one of those “chairs”; wouldn’t be the same record.
Right now I’m imagining this thread without Frogman; I wonder what it would be like?
Everything you have stated Frogman, is what we already know, you have contributed nothing.
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This thread was going too good for you, so you had to set up a political fight; "Choose me or Orpheus". You have done this so many times in the past; are you bored? What’s the end game?
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Alex, I found the 45 rpm sessions, but I don't recall playing them; that will be corrected. Believe it or not, the only album I don't have is the one with singer "Dodo Green". |
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Frogman throws a tomahawk, and he has no idea of why the response in kind when it comes back.
Rok, how many times have we seen this scenario?
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I'm not well, and I would appreciate it if everyone just ignored my posts; while they fit my mood, I don't even care to read the last one.
Carry on Frogman!
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The most pointless arguments we can possibly have are; "What is jazz, or what is not jazz". That's right up there with what is or is not "Blues"; this is determined by the current majority; I'm reminded of "The Beatles"; "Let it Be".
What we hear is determined by the same factors as what the musician plays musically. The musicians origination is one of the greatest factors in what he plays. What he is actually playing, and what he thinks he's playing might be two different things, but words are one thing, and music is another, and words, not music is what's in the books.
I have a number of music encyclopedias, and the musicians that are labeled as "jazz musicians" is astounding; it seems that the most current books are the most different in regard to what the musician is playing and what I hear, but in this case, definition is determined by younger people for younger musicians; whatever it states is what is, like it or not.
I must not forget that when a record is played, we hear differently; what sounds good to a much younger person may not be so agreeable to me. I'll give you a better example.
Since I knew some of Miles Davis's close friends and relatives; although they would never say it in public, but only in casual conversation with someone they confided in, they could live without Miles most current music. When you think of how many times Miles changed over the years, and how many generations have come to like his music, it's not hard to understand how those who based their collection on what was best during the 50's and 60's, might not have been too fond of his last music, although they didn't love Miles one bit less than when they grew up together.
We have to agree, to disagree, and "Let it be".
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It is our custom to acknowledge the passing of all jazz artists and their contribution to the art. Cecil Taylor contributed greatly to "Avant Garde" jazz. Anyone who considers Avant Garde special, might post links that will enlighten us who might be a shade in the dark.
Thank you Jafant for informing us, and Acman for that link that sheds light on Mr. Cecil Taylor.
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Disputes are best settled in a way that they no longer linger. In the case of Mose Allison, his obituary says he was a jazz and blues pianist, since we never argue with anyone's obituary, that's settled once and for all, "He was a jazz and Blues pianist".
There must be a way to settle disputes of this nature in a non-arbitrary fashion; if "Wikipedia" says it is so, there it is, case closed for this thread.
Music is emotional, and so are we; consequently we must have a non-emotional manner of settling disputes of this nature in this thread, that closes the case. If someone doesn't like the verdict, I suggest they take it up with "Wikipedia".
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There is nothing I hate more than being misunderstood; when people from Boston talked, they assumed they were speaking English, but some of us who also spoke English, failed to understand them.
When you have a crowd of people, from every state in the "United States", such as the first gathering for basic training in one of our branches of service, that's when you will discover, we may all speak "English" but we still don't all understand the English that is spoken from each individual state.
That's what I meant when I spoke of our "origination"; it also has an effect on how we speak musically.
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I would like to thank pjw81563 for introducing someone most of us were unaware of, "Ladie Kim". I know this is my first time hearing Ladie Kim or, Kim Zombik, because there is another Lady Kim known for "Twerking". I don't want you to get them confused.
Right now, her CD's are outside of my economic range, consequently I won't be getting acquainted with Lady Kim anytime soon.
Enjoy the music.
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Yo Rok, what is, is what they say it is; we can let it be, or argue for the rest of our lives, and this is nothing new.
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That is precisely correct Pryso. |
"The Real Diehl"; he is most certainly that. Thanks for that link Frogman.
While it's true that no one can go anywhere without talent, financial backing plus the right environment also go a long way.
I'm sure Juilliard School has changed in many ways since Miles spent his short stint there.
I will certainly keep a close eye, and ear on Mr. Aaron Diehl.
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nsp, these are some of my speculations in regard to why new jazz just doesn't "wig" me.
I spoke of "origination", which is where the musician, and the listener came from. When they both came from one of the major cities, they were on the same frequency, and communicated. Now that so much, meaning a large part of our major cities no longer exist, it complicates things. Music does not exist in a vacuum.
Clubs in our major cities were where so many jazz artists honed the art of making jazz. Presently, the jazz environment is in a flux. If you look to somebody from the country to produce good jazz after going to a good music school, you might be disappointed.
So many times I hear about how good the artists in the past are compared to today. I've also noticed how today's artists can excel at playing classical, but not jazz, or they can play jazz as long as it's written down. That tells me artists of today, are as good as artists of yesterday, when it comes to their instrument, but they haven't mastered the jazz vocabulary or feel.
The improvising skills required to play good jazz are honed in night clubs with other jazz musicians. If these clubs, and that environment don't exist, the music has to come up short.
In the meantime, while the new jazz musicians work out the kinks, I'll be listening to the old jazz.
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Frogman, I have pointed out MY observations not yours. Maybe their stylistic differences are so great that I don't consider them good jazz.
Why are the best examples you display are of them playing Mingus's music?
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nsp, it's nice of you to be concerned about my health.
Joni Mitchell made a recording of Mingus's birthday party, and sung some songs on that recording; more talking than music, but I found it interesting.
I was only curious about people who are fans of the "avant garde". Even when my favorite musicians go "avant garde", I can live without it; however, if you have some you like, please post it, I never know.
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Thank you Frogman for that huge contribution; when I finish with Richard Wyands, I'll focus on Paul Chambers.
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I bought this album when it came out in 74; if you notice, it has a sound that's quite different from the 50's and 60's. The focus is on Richard Wyands, a pianist whose name I did not recognize. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kU3KI3L2t4g&list=PLIuGO4xKJweIWbUSip_ZpSC7C_CyteXIdTrack listing "Up the Street, 'Round the Corner, Down the Block" (Onaje Allan Gumbs) - 7:18 "Afro Blue" (Mongo Santamaria) - 5:40 "Sausalito Nights" - 7:15 "Juice" - 5:40 "A Little Walking Music" - 3:18 "Soulero" (Richard Evans) - 9:13 Kenny Burrell - guitar, whistling (track 5) Jerome Richardson - flute, soprano saxophone, tenor saxophone Richard Wyands - piano, electric piano Andy Simpkins - bass Lenny McBrowne - drums Mayuto Correa - percussion I remember when I bought this, and the store I bought it from; it was from the records department in a department store; St. Louis and suburbs were so pleasant then, I spent evenings just shopping and browsing; now, from what I heard on the news, St. Louis is one of the murder capitals of the world; how the times have changed. Back to the music; I had forgotten how nice this album is, that's because it was worn out from frequent play and I quit playing it; it will have to be replaced. Enjoy the music. |
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You are extremely observant with good ears Frogman, I was going to point out the same things; especially the Fender Rhodes electric piano.
Music reflects the sociological times; that was when you felt safe walking "Up The Street, Round The Corner, Down The Block" in the city.
While some feel I should not incorporate sociology into music, that's who I am; while some of us live very well, there are too many US citizens who were born and bred here living in third world conditions. That's all I'm going to say about that.
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Roland Kirk was recorded in 1961, and does it have a different feel; "fast hip city", more of the 50's and 60's sound; Richard Wyands piano reflects that.
That was when Roland Kirk exploded on the scene, and let us know he was a new force on the jazz scene who would command our attention.
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Thanks for the correction Frogman, I thought he was on all the cuts. The great Hank Jones is hardly unknown, and needs no introduction; he's on my favorite cuts.
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I had no idea PC was on "Alexandria The Great" as long as I've had that album, which was purchased shortly after it came out in 64. Now I have the CD, and it doesn't say anything about PC. "Wicki" says PC is on "My one And Only Love"; plus "I'm Through With Love" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psaueeL_Fkk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSuEnDf3oE4Initially this exercise was about sidemen you didn't know you had, and it's for sure I didn't know PC was on this album. Although this doesn't exhibit PC's considerable talents, it's the one I'm posting. Others can feel free to exhibit Mr. PC however they choose. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWXimvRssmQThe last one is my favorite by Lorez, but does not include PC. |
This was the album everybody bought when it came out. Mr. PC is boss on this album.
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To make a living, Eunice Waymon changed her name to "Nina Simone". The change related to her need to disguise herself from family members, having chosen to play "the devil's music" or "cocktail piano" at a nightclub in Atlantic City. She was told in the nightclub that she would have to sing to her own accompaniment, which effectively launched her career as a jazz vocalist. Nina Simone's early albums gave us two for one; we are getting an accomplished jazz pianist plus a unique female vocalist. Since it was singing that payed the bills, I'm not sure she maintained her pianist skills to the end; Frogman, the professional musician will have to answer that question. I recognized her skill as a jazz pianist from the beginning; while I have these works on CD, I'm not sure you can get them on vinyl because they're primarily the early albums. "Nina at Newport" is one of them; besides the vocals like "Porgy", you get instrumentals like "Flo Me La" and "Nina's Blues" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24XaKqEeGk4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeMfDflHM1E |
Curtis didn't like the way Nina Simone played the piano; that was not necessarily racist in one sense, but it could have been racist in another sense. The bottom line; it was our gain, if they had liked her, she would have become another boring classical pianist.
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"nor the piano skills of Evans, Kelly, Barron, Wyands, or many other great piano players. To be honest you probably made a valid observation that I never did."
She would have to be exclusively a pianist to make the comparison you made because there is so little where she focused exclusively on the piano.
Although the judgement I made is 100% subjective, and it is minute compared to someone who is exclusively a pianist, I listen intently and treasure it. |
I didn't mean her piano throughout her career, but in the beginning when in her mind, she was more of a pianist than a vocalist. After it was determined that the piano alone would not pay the bills, it wasn't necessary to play at the same level she had worked so hard to attain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHeIASIwBp0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDrCbfuu5TkHer piano style is so unique, that I never compare it to any other pianists, but consider it a treasure for my ears alone. |
"Theme De YoYo" was quite advanced; although the words to the lyrics could be changed to make it more accessible, I liked the music.
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nsp, just as I figured, even when I like the artists, I can live without the music; Don Cherry and Gato are a perfect example of that.
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Pryso, I think you have hit upon something, maybe that's why we never discuss "current" music, because there is very little worth discussing.
I noticed sometime ago when I bought a fairly current CD, it only had 1 cut that appealed to me, now I don't even bother.
What we talk about and like as a forum speaks for itself without my input.
I'm still waiting for the "new music", and I want each one of us to make sure they comment on it.
After this, we will return to whatever we like as individuals, and are comfortable with.
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After the musician has learned all that is required, and mastered his instrument, he must then find some music worthy of his knowledge and skills.
In the jazz idiom, music is derived from human relations and expressions; in other words the society in which we live provides the inspiration for the music; without this, where does the musician go for his music. Does he look inside his head? Without additional external stimuli and action, he won't find much material. In all generations, the society at large provided the inspiration for the music; the music is a reflection of a particular society, it is nothing more than a mirror.
I pose this question, "Can anyone present music that is a reflection of today's society?"
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Since it is assumed we are all "jazz aficionados"; we have the right to reject the music for whatever reason we choose.
While others who have been deemed objective experts can qualify the music, as fans and consumers of this music, it's only necessary that we purchase it if we like it.
As OP of this jazz thread maybe I have more responsibility than others, but I have always shared that responsibility as to what is "good jazz" and we have come to a unanimous conclusion.
While I have my opinions in regard to specific cuts on an album, as well as the album itself; they have never been too far outside prevailing views of other members of this forum.
If anyone of us finds the societal moves away from “old school” values to only be a negative and without any redeeming value (iow, the type of person who believes that society today and it’s values is inherently worse than in the past) then that is the type of individual who is more prone to not like or appreciate art that reflects the current society regardless of that art’s ultimate quality as defined by criteria that are not only subjective, but also objective.
That is a very difficult paragraph to interpret, but I would never accept anything just because it's new.
Back to the original question, "Can anyone present jazz, or any music that is a reflection of this society"?
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Eunice Waymon was hired at a cocktail lounge to play the piano; when she was told she had to sing for her supper, she became "Nina Simone"; she never had any intention of becoming a vocalist.
Pryso, and Frogman, your evaluations, and comparisons are quite valid in regard to Nina, and the other jazz divas; she might even agree.
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Frogman, you are a professional musician, and you have exhibited your knowledge of music, time, and time again, but you are not a "Connoisseur" of the very best jazz; that requires taste comparable to the best wine stewards.
When Nina Simone goes deep into her piano bag, she is no longer Nina Simone; she is Eunice Waymon, the girl who spent her entire life training to become a classical pianist. Only the most knowledgeable aficionados can hear this.
I have presented to you, Frogman, the jazz epicureans piano delight, although you may not appreciate it; such is life.
Maybe if you start at my first presentation, and listen to them as being that of the pianist Eunice Waymon, you can appreciate them more.
It's only when you separate Nina Simone from Eunice Waymon, can you truly appreciate her piano.
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Frogman, I hope you can overlook the fake snobbery in my last post. |
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Frogman, I direct things at you because you are a professional musician, and the top aficionado beside myself.
Who is the top aficionado is based on who has recommended the "best" jazz over a period of 3 years. Of course that has to be confirmed by others, and it has been; it's in the records; this is not a popularity contest.
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When one is rolling in the mud it's difficult to tell who the low life is.
Nothing in your post pertains to the subject of Nina Simone's piano playing.
I stated "fake snobery" because it was an attempt at humor, but in the future you can count on me not addressing you in any form or fashion, since that is the kind of response it gets, and your bs is much older than anything I could throw down.
I didn't intend to get this muddy, but s--- happens.
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Eunice Waymon spent her entire life practicing and studying to become a concert pianist. She was playing at a bar in order to earn money for classical piano lessons when she was told she had to sing.
I can hear all those hours she spent practicing and studying, but you can not. Time, time and again you have demonstrated your tin ear, which all the knowledge in the world or your clever use of the English language will compensate for.
Forget Nina Simone, why don't you read about "Eunice Waymon" and tell me specifically which jazz pianists studied, or practiced harder; that would be responding to a specific question which you can not do, not even if it would save your life.
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Frogman, if you did not want to incite a riot, why didn't you respond to mary-jo's post first? When are you going to respond to her post?
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Frogman, "Wicki" has almost nothing on Eunice Waymon; she's a person, Nina Simone is a name; you will either have to buy the book or go to the library in order to find out who "Eunice Waymon" was, "google" can not help you.
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