Jazz for aficionados

Neil Cowley Trio from their LP, "Displaced".  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R08KyvSHVo4&ab_channel=neilcowleytrio

No accounting for taste, I suppose.

****Frogman is evidently giving much thoughtful consideration to the link in question,****

Well, O-10, I am glad you look forward to my comments so much ☺️. Sorry to disappoint you; but, nah!, been getting our upstate digs ready for the winter. I did listen to that record while riding my tractor and mulching about five acres worth of Fall leaves.

Alex (and O-10, of course), I’ve had that record for many years. It’s an interesting record on a few counts. Hawkins was one of Rollins’ main influences; primarily in the area of tone. Rollins adopted Hawkins’ very muscular tone concept and is known to have admired Hawkins for an approach to improvisation which was (fasten your seatbelt, O-10) as Rollins himself is quoted as saying, more "intellectual" than other players’ of Hawkins’ generation.

These are/were two undisputed giants of the tenor saxophone. Hawkins is considered to have been the link between the great swing tenor players and the beboppers. His solo on his recording of "Body And Soul" is considered one of the all-time classic jazz solos; a groundbreaking solo that took improvisation from the very linear and traditionally melodic style of players like Lester Young to a new place of wider intervals and more "intellectual" outlining of chord changes, a style that reached full expression years later in John Coltrane.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zUFg6HvljDE

Sonny Rollins, while retaining the husky tone style of Hawkins got rid of much of the breathiness (subtone) in the sound and the tendency to end every phrase with very obvious and wide vibrato; both, telltale signs that a player is coming out of the swing tradition. He further took the harmonic vocabulary to a whole other place with a much more extended harmonic approach (playing outside the more traditional chord structure) for a far more interesting harmonic palette. He also uses a lot of humor in his playing with phrasing and rhythmic choices that sound downright silly at times. At one point (22:57) in "Just Friends" ("Old Friends"??) he quotes "How Are Things In Glocca Morra" (from the Broadway musical Finian’s Rainbow) of all things; but, as a mark of his genius, makes it work. As I said, I find the record interesting, there is a lot of great playing and there is undeniable charm in Rollins paying homage to one of his heroes. However, I don’t find the record particularly enjoyable.

Much has been made of Hawkins’ ability to play in a modern style or a more modern setting; I’m not so sure. Listen to "Body And Soul"; it is an absolute gem. That’s the style that Hawkins plays best and sounds most credible in with a rhythm section that is also in that stylistic frame of mind. He can sound exciting in some ways playing an uptempo tune like "Just Friends", but....there’s something not quite right. He was, in his heart of hearts, a great swing and ballad player. There is sometimes a kind of stylistic disconnect between the rhythm section and Hawkins. Likewise, when Rollins follows Hawkins, the rhythm section doesn’t switch gears and Rollins’ stylistic quirkiness and humor can sometimes sound like a "bull in a china closet" with the rhythm section sounding like it is just keeping time and not interacting with what he is playing like they should. I suppose all this is relatively subtle; but, I prefer to hear each player in his own comfort zone. My favorite Sonny record:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E8vZLljjb58

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yLKv7vAKVMs

Frogman, you're an odd 0ne; "Bait and switch Frogman" I dub thee;


You object to my involving you in a another discussion about politics. If that offended you, my apology. However, I need to point out that you had already involved yourself with your "torture chambers in Guantanamo" comment. Although I doubt it, perhaps your comment was meant solely as humor; not a topic that has much room for humor. Not being from this country and perhaps because of your political orientation, you may not be aware of the fact that this is a political topic that is highly "charged" in this country; however, I am sure you are aware of this. I need to also point out that while you object to my involving you, you don't seem to mind, and conveniently overlook, the fact that O-10 first involved you; and, at the expense of other participants here. Why did you not object to that, Alex?

"Torture chambers in Guantanamo" was used humorously by Alex, but I'm using as a fact, since you mentioned it.

Now you come back all nicee nice telling us about mulching leaves, when it was you that got me back into this conversation after I had dropped it "What's your point"?

And here you come with another one of your long diatribes that speak volumes about something Alex didn't say, but after you twist it around to the Frogmans way, there no telling what anybody said.

I must admit that of all sax greats, Rollins is one that I have least record of.
Somehow his tone or expressing always felt kind of 'hard' to me.
But, Frogman, thank you for your explanation, it kind of 'gives the words' to thoughts.
On the other hand, I liked the 'Bridge' , maybe because of the line up, the overall sound seems different that on the others his albums that I have listened.
Except from 'S.R. and Contemporary Leaders' I have these albums, from his 'later' phase (it was coincidently my 'earlier', in terms of jazz evolution)

'Horn Culture', from 1973.
https://youtu.be/RRsWhwSMXJI

'The cutting edge' from 1975.
https://youtu.be/ubOKAxHbq7g

Somehow, with time, I am going backwards (at least in jazz) to the more simple form of expressions, but I find them to be more substantial.

Orpheus, if I may, please do not look for every oportunity to 'pick up a fight', I realy think its not doing any favours to a thread, aldo some may find it amusing.You know, popocorns with butter and all that....

Alex, I am very glad you like "The Bridge"; personally, I think it's a brilliant record that belongs (and is) in many "best ever" lists. You know, although the brilliance of Sonny as an improviser is heard in just about everything he did and does (!), I agree with you that there are some aesthetic issues in his playing.  You mention "tone".  It's interesting because while his tone is not "hard" and edgy the way that, say, Coltrane's was, and was rather dark and not bright like Coltrane's, one of the very distinctive but idiosyncratic characteristics in Rollins' playing is a very "hard" way of articulating notes and phrases; the way the player attacks the notes with the tongue.  Also, and I think this goes to one of the most interesting and beautiful things about players and their music, it's almost impossible to separate tone from attitude.  You are exactly right, his tone sounds hard because his musical attitude is hard.  Interestingly, while Coltrane's tone is actually "harder" still (in technical terms) his attitude is gentler because of the deep sense of spirituality in his playing; and, what to me, is a sense of humbleness.  I hear neither of those things in Rollins' playing.  Still, Rollins is one of the great improvisers.  He has a very forceful way with rhythm.  To me, while many players seem to play with or TO the rhythm section's pulse, with Sonny it is almost as if the rhythm section is playing to HIS rhythmic impetus; a very commanding player (no humbleness).  

Thanks for the clips.  I don't think there is any "bad" Sonny Rollins record, but I must say that I don't particularly like just about all that he did from the 1970 onward.  I have every record that Sonny recorded as a leader and those two are, unfortunately, not two of my favorites; I have a strong suspicion that they are not your favorites either.  Ironically, and in spite of his brilliance, I don't think that his experiments with quasi-fusion and more contemporary "sounds" are his best efforts.  No reflection on the style of music itself, just not his "comfort zone", imo.  Two other favorites if you haven't heard them:

Probably on even more "Best of Rollins" lists than even "The Bridge" (still my favorite):

https://m.youtube.com/results?q=somny%20saxophone%20colossus&sm=3

And this one, which I think was strangely overlooked in our earlier look at Jazz soundtracks, with arrangements by the great Oliver Nelson:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooizs5p8ZuY