Thank you for all your comments. I am definitely a novice here, so please excuse these questions.
My listening position is about 8 feet from the speakers. I never listen loudly, and I prefer chamber music jazz, blues, Nora Jones, Diana Krall, and similar. So I definitely don't stress the speakers at all. Knowing that, should I still be concerned about impedance levels? The Primaluna has very large transformers. They also say that Martin Logan used their equipment at shows a few years back. The Summit X speakers have a sensitivity of
91 dB/2.83 volts/meter.
@georgehifi, that Yamaha looks like it might be a good option.
Thanks!!! |
Well, not completely. I'm also going to order the Saunders ESL amp and use my Plinius as preamp while I compare the two. I read the article that markusthenaimnut referred me to on their website and it was also very , convincing. In that article he does say that the roll off at high frequencies is probably not noticeable (maybe more so for us older folks), and that power is very important. He uses a large transformer, as does the PL. It will be interesting to compare them both. The Summitt x bass is powered, so the amp will only power the panels.
I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. This is a great hobby with many opinions, all of which are certainly valid. That's what makes it fun! |
For some unknown reason, I’m focused on tubes. I called Kevin and Upscale Audio and he talked me into ordering a Dialogue HP Integrated which arrives Tuesday. he also offered me $2500 for my Plinius Hautonga integrated, which seems fair. He said at my listening levels and room size, the HP will be perfect. I will try the PL HP for a few weeks before I decide. I do understand the impedance issue, but maybe at 65 I cant hear those frequencies anyway. :) I read on their website that Martin Logan used PL amps at a few shows a few years back, so maybe they will be what I want. If not, I’ll send it back and keep my Plinius and investigate something like the BAT VK3000SE or similar. I know the best option is probably to have a tube preamp and SS amp or mono blocks but not in my budget to go separates. I could get the PL preamp and use the Plinius amp by hooking up to the HT input until I can afford a better amp...Hmmm? What do you guys think about that?
Steve
|
Just spoke to Roger at Sanders. I ordered the ESL Mk II since my Summits have powered bass units. Really looking forward to the test next weekend. Going to play all weekend long! I will update with my thoughts as I play each one, and compare them to the Plinius.
Thanks everyone! |
well, the Primaluna arrived and I set it up last night. It needs about 100 hours to break it in, but of course I couldn't resist and started listening to music right away. Mind you, the Plinius is a great Integrated, but man was I blown away by the imaging, sound, and control of my Summit X speakers. It was absolutely beautiful. As though my speakers came alive. This is a HUGE step up for me.
George and others, what should I listen for that will show me the limitations of tubes with my speakers? Is there specific music that will make this apparent to me? I want to make sure I grasp the effect of the impedance shortfall of tubes before I listen to the Sanders.
I also received the Sanders ESL amp today. Going this route will be more expensive because I would have to buy a preamp eventually. I plan to use the Plinius as a preamp initially if this is the route I go.
I will listed to the Primaluna for about a week, then move to the Sanders. Setup takes time to move back and forth, so I'll probably spend about a week or so with each and then make a decision.
Thanks everyone!
Steve |
The amp now has about 50 hours of break in and I have listened now for about 15 hours. I have to say, it's still amazing. I'm pretty new at this, but I'm not hearing what George is referring to. Not saying he is incorrect, just that I'm thoroughly enjoying this amp. Break in for this is about 100 hours, so it should be in it's prime Monday night.
I have the Sanders and my old Plinius action as preamp ready to power up mid-week. Question: should I plug in the Sanders to let it begin breaking in? Do I have to have speakers attached if it's on?
Steve |
George, I hate to say it, but I'm really liking the PL HP integrated. But you have me concerned about what I may be missing due to the impedance of my speakers. I actually had a hearing test done recently and I can hear as slow as 133 HZ, and as high as 8400 Hz. I'm not sure I'm reading the charts you referenced above correctly, but it appears the PL will work fine for these frequencies. Am I reading this right?
Also, does the high power transformers of the PL help with this? Would moving up power tubes to KT-120 help?
Sure appreciate the advice!!! |
tomcy6, I definitely will. I've been snowed in, in Oregon for the past five days and unable to get home to hook up the Sanders ESL, but I'm heading there today and will spend the weekend with it. It has lots of power, soit will be interesting to hear the difference.
maplegrovemusic, those KT150s are expensive! Not sure I would put another $800 into the PL, but KT120s might be possible. Any suggestions? Or is it better to replace the two gain tubes fIrst?
This hobby is awesome! |
Still listening to them, but here is a quick update:
Sanders:
No doubt this amp has the power and also is beautiful to listen to. I would say that is is much more detailed and refined, bringing out every sound with more clarity than the PL. There are no negatives to it, except for the price to me. I started out looking for an integrated amp to replace my Plinius, but the Sanders would require a preamp, which is not in my budget right now. I could make it work, but is the Sanders $2500 better than the PL? Or do I like it that much more than the PL? That's the question I'm trying to answer right now.
Primaluna Dialogue HP Integrated:
I do love the PL. Like tablejocky above, I don't hear an impedance issue like georgehifi warns about above - and I do appreciate the warning. I read more about the PL, and they claim that the power is ample for the ML Summit X because they are relatively efficient, and that their "massively overbuilt output transformers produce more than enough juice for" my speakers. To me, they seem to be correct. I would say that the PL has more punch than Sanders, the sound is more intense, while the Sanders is more laid back. I'm pretty sold on the PL except for one element that is bugging me:
Listening to some tracks, there seems to be a "crackle" or overly expressed crackle when the artist uses a "T" as in Vermont, or a "C" in some pieces. The Sanders did this too, but it was not as pronounced as in the PL. It's not a BIG issue, but now I'm focused on it. This happens in triode or linear modes, and really only when listening to SACD, which I do a lot. It's almost as if the Sanders presented this less loud and in more detail, and the PL because they are tubes, can't do that. The PL now has about 125 hours of operation, so should be fairly broken in.I don't think this is the impedance thing showing its ugly head, but perhaps someone else can offer an opinion.
Anyone have an opinion about this?
THanks! |
|
I decided to call Rogue Audio this morning and ask them about their Chronow Magnum III integrated, and how it would do with Summit X speakers. The gentleman I talked with was very knowledgeable and helpful. He said that they have a massive linear power supply and not to worry about impedance. They have many customers with challenging speakers like the Summit X with impedances that go down to 1 ohm and have no issues. The Magnum III weighs 55#. The PL HP has more tubes and weighs 66#. They both claim massive output transformers. |
Sorry, I thought I'd shared that already. I did call Martin Logan about tube amps, but not specific brands or tube vs solid-state. Their response was very non-committal, probably because they do not want to give a recommendation for specific brands. All they shared was that the amplifier needs to have enough amps and current to drive the speakers. Not much help there, unfortunately. |
I like that photo, George! Are you trying to say that I shouldn't rely on the manufacturer's responses? I understand that to some degree, but they are both reputable manufacturers/distributors and thus should know their products and speak the truth. If they did not, their reputations would suffer all over the internet, hurting their sales as well. I totally get what the charts are showing, but perhaps listening critically is the best overall indicator of whether something works or it doesn't. |
Well, final decision time. I very much appreciate all the advice and comments in this thread! Definitely shows the passion we all have for this great hobby and the diversity of thought and really, hearing each of us has. There are so many options and variabilities to choose from, but in the end, as many of you have stated, it comes down to our individual hearing preferences, goals, and budget.
Today I returned the Sanders amp. What a great company! They paid to ship the amp to me and allowed me 30 days to trial it. When I told them I was going to return it, they sent me a return notice from UPS - they paid the return shipping costs too! As soon as it arrives, they said they will refund my entire purchase cost. Who does that today? Great people!
Tomorrow I will send my Plinius to Upscale Audio and I will keep the Primaluna. Why? I really love the sound, and I like the idea of tweaking the sound with new tubes. I also spoke with a person who works on tube amplifiers who told me he did not believe I would have any problems with the PL and my Summit X speakers because of the size of the output transformers, which made me feel even better about my decision. This amp is a BIG STEP UP from the Plinius.
Is this the last amplifier I will own? No, it is not. At some point I do want to have a separate preamp and amplifier. When I do, I will consider all the options the participants in this thread have provided, and maybe even a tube preamp with SS amplifier. The PL integrated gives me a chance to try out tubes without breaking my budget by buying separates. And if my hearing becomes more critical and I do hear signs of the amp clipping, I can always sell it and start the upgrade process then. This decision has the added benefit of not having to convince my wife I need another $3000 (HaHa - she does not hear or see value in this hobby, prefering to listen to her music from her phone - yes, her phone!).
Given my budget and hearing, I feel this is the wisest choice right now. I have no doubt there are even better amplifiers out there to consider, but budget does have to be a consideration. I think of this as evolution toward audio nirvana, whatever that looks like to each of us. I definitely have more upgrades in my future.
Thank you again for all your help and guidance!
Steve |
