Brf, Those numbers are definitely incorrect. I measured the S2P distance and it's precisely 262 mm. This is what VPI used to have posted on their website a few years ago before they took it down. It is definitely not 258 mm, unless S2P is not the distance between the sharp pivot point and the center of the spindle, which it should be. Also, the effective length is not 273 mm. Based on the VPI protractor, it is probably 278 mm. I reset my cartridge last night using the Mint protractor and measured what looked like 277 mm, but that's way more tricky than measuring S2P so I might be a millimeter off. When I reset the alignment using the VPI jig the effective length is about an extra millimeter compared to the Mint. These measurements are essentially the same as in this excellent and very informative article on Vinyl Engine on the VPI tonearm geometry http://www.vinylengine.com/vpi-tonearm-geometry.shtml. This is the reason why I inquired about the parameters Yip is using as there is a lot of confusion about data for VPI tonearms. |
Brf (and Captain_winters),
Thanks for your responses. A couple of things. VPI is notorious for being all over the place with their specs. Why do you assume that the info Mike gave you is correct? Get a ruler and measure the S2P distance on your Classic and see what you get. As I said, if the distance is from the sharp pivot point to the center of the spindle, as it should be, it is dead on 262 mm on my Classic.
Further, I find it funny that "VPI has confirmed that the info on Vinyl Engine is wrong." The info in the article was based on what VPI posted on their website, which they later took down, and on the measurements of their jig done by owners. So VPI has confirmed that their own info is wrong? This actually does make sense as when it came to the null points, the math simply did not work, but it just shows the lack of consistent data from VPI.
My Mint appears to have an overhang of 15 mm, but your math only works if S2P is 258 mm, which it is not, at least on my Classic. Plus, with an alignment done with the Mint, I get an effective length of 277, which again confirms that the S2P distance is 262, not 258 mm. I can't argue with the ruler. Since aligning with the VPI jig requires moving the stylus about a millimeter further out, the specs would be even more removed from what VPI is saying.
I suggest that you simply measure both S2P and the distance between the pivot and the tip of the stylus to determine what you get. Either Mike is incorrect, different Classics (as in 1,2,3,4) have different tonearm specs, or VPI is sloppy with their mounting. But we still don't know what specs Yip is using for the Classic protractor...
EDIT: I just saw the other posts. Something is definitely not right here, as the numbers do not work for me. I'm certainly not 3-4 mm off.
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Captain_winters,
Thanks for the link to the alignment calculator; it's a great tool!
Perhaps it wasn't very clear, but I already have a Mint protractor for the Classic tonearm. I got it a few years ago, but don't have the emails I exchanged with Yip. It wasn't made specifically for my tonearm in a sense that I did not provide him with S2P; he already had stock protractors for the Classic as they were very popular. I believe they were a bit cheaper or the wait was shorter, or something like that. I wanted to confirm with others who use the protractor what S2P Yip used to make theirs since it should be the same specification. Doing research, I saw the 259 mm figure and after I measured mine, I began to question whether I should even be using the Mint, if it is indeed based on a different S2P than mine.
I will try to measure it again, just to make sure. Btw, how different do you find the alignment with the Mint vs. the VPI jig in terms of the stylus position on the grid? For me, the offset angle is identical, but the stylus is about 1 mm further out with the VPI jig. |
Suteetat,
Would it be possible for you to compare the position of the stylus on the VPI grid with the alignment using the Mint? If your cartridge was aligned with the Mint, all you have to do is position the VPI jig and observe where the stylus lands on the grid. This would go a long way toward clarifying the specs on my Classic. Thanks! |
Thank you both. I appreciate your responses!
Interesting points about the VTA. I must say I get a headache thinking about compensating for the actual difference in thickness while listening to records after aligning with the Mint. Since the Mint is thicker, every time you re-align, you will necessarily be changing the VTA/SRA at the record level, which would in turn alter the arc followed by the stylus in comparison with the Mint arc. Perhaps if you could hear what the Mint sounds like at that thickness, you could then readjust by ear. Confusing!
Anyway, for me the difference seems to be about a millimeter between the two alignments, which perhaps tells me that my S2P is after all slightly bigger than the standard 258 mm.
Last question: what is the overhang on your Mints?
Thanks guys! |
Captain_winters,
First off, I'm going to put my tail between my legs and admit I was wrong about the S2P distance. After re-measuring it again with great care and a friend's help, it is indeed 258 mm. I think I didn't account for the difference in the height angle between the spindle and pivot.
Now, the info you provided is awesome, and pretty much what I've found as well. I do believe Yip uses Bearwald so the overhang should indeed be close to 15 mm as you stated. I think VPI uses their own geometry, which is close to Lofgren B, but not exactly it. The Vinyl Engine article I linked to explains it in more detail. A few years ago I had a conversation regarding protractors with Mike, and if I recall correctly, he said the VPI jig was designed to minimize distortion in the last 1/3 of the record.
As far as the Mint not fitting over the spindle, I initially had some difficulty fitting it as well, but after working it a little, it eventually went all the way down snugly and now fits perfectly. I guess it does not matter now since you fixed it anyway.
Once again, thank you all, especially Captain_winters, for your feedback and contribution to this thread. There is a lot of great info in it that will hopefully help many others. |
For the Classic 1 the effective mass I have seen stated as 10.5 g, 11.2 g, and 12.3 g. No information as to the material it is made of. However, it is very comforting to see that VPI has definitely got better about providing consistent information regarding its products. They've also improved their customer service with regard to answering phone calls. It used to be all but impossible to get them to answer the phone, but this is no longer the case. It seems to have coincided with Mat Weisfeld's joining the business. |
Testpilot,
Why are you so angry? The only "slamming" in this thread was your tirade that brought nothing to the discussion. But thank you for telling us that apparently you're having a bad day, or are an angry man in general, or both.
At worst, I criticized VPI for providing inconsistent data, which is understandably frustrating and nothing new. The Classic tonearm WAS mounted with a S2P of 262 mm at some point, and Ken Willis still makes two protractors for the Classic tonearm based on two different S2P distances (258 and 262 mm, not to mention Yip who apparently uses 259 mm) so my skepticism was valid, and measuring can be tricky. I have no problem with a manufacturer changing specs on their product, but a heads-up for the customers would be nice (e.g., through adding an identifying symbol when a product is changed). The very tonearm in question is a good case in point as good luck finding its true effective mass, and which version you actually have if you're a Classic turntable owner - aluminum, steel, a combination, a combination with more damping? So yes, I did dismiss the data provided by VPI based on my experience, but did not slam the poster.
Similarly, to say that the article on Vinyl Engine was based on the wrong info is just nonsense as when it came out it was based on the specs released by VPI and on the measurements of their own jigs. The article might have less substantive validity today after VPI apparently changed some of their specs, but it certainly makes a valid point regarding lack of transparency and confusing information from the manufacturer. I love my turntable, and think VPI is a great company, but I wish they made it a bit less frustrating for owners of their products in this hobby where great accuracy is the key to the desired goal of faithful music reproduction.
In the end, all was clarified, and I see no confusion, just a lot of good info and a cordial discussion. That is until you decided to change that. So thank you very much sir. I hope you feel better now. |
Testpilot,
You took select quotes from several of my posts out of context to prove something that I'm not quite sure is relevant to anything except to fuel some sort of a forum feud. I guess you forgot to quote from the posts where I admitted I was embarrassed by insisting on my wrong position, and openly thanked posters personally for their input. If Brf felt offended by me calling into question information he got from VPI, I'm sure he was more than capable of expressing himself, and he does not need you to advocate for him.
Look, it's a hobby forum where members come to get information, clarify information, exchange information, ideas, and express their, sometimes strong, opinions. In my opinion this is precisely what occurred in this thread and no lines were crossed, and apparently nobody except you had their sensitivities offended, which is rather absurd considering you were not even a part of it until now. I sincerely admitted I was wrong, and sincerely thanked all for their feedback and great info, including personal thanks. What else do you want me to do? If you give me your address, perhaps I can come over and give you a foot massage. Would that make you happy? Ridiculous. |
Testpilot
So, what did we learn?
1) Classic JMW S2P distance is 258mm,
2) Overhang is 15mm,
3) Effective length is 273mm
4) Info on VE is wrong Are you really so obtuse? Or do you have reading comprehension problems? 1) Classic JMW also came with an S2P of 262 mm so my belief was not baseless or impossible. 2) I did not argue about overhang. 3) Effective length is 273 mm for S2P of 258 mm, but would be different for 262 mm. 4) The info on VE was not wrong when the article came out, and is still correct with respect to some VPI tonearms. What I don't get is the purpose of you continuing to post in an otherwise dead thread and going after me. What are you trying to accomplish? Actually, I don't even care at this point. You made your point; I made mine. Good day to you, sir. |
