@whitecamaross
Let me just say, I've truly enjoyed following your thread. I'm sure many others do too but just do not post. The fact you've done all you've done, spent all you've spent, and continually updated this post just because of your love for this hobby is a thing of character. And I really appreciate that. And the fact you report like you hear, that is what we want. We don't need anymore "professional" reviews. Tell it like it is. Rock on! |
Hopefully a little more burn-in will cure your ills. |
@whitecamaross
You said "think of my thread as another source of information besides the typical lies of magazines that always claim every component is amazing". That is why I love this thread so much. Magazine hyperbole is ridiculous.
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@whitecamaross & @4425
And to 4425s comment. I haven't heard the DartZeelstereo amp. But I did hear the mono blocks with the new preamp and Evolution Acoustics speakers. The source was a reel-to-reel tape deck playing Lines on My Face off of Frampton Comes Alive. All I can say was wow!!! I heard this at the Los Angeles Audio Show and it was one of three best systems that day. The mono's made such effortless power; they have a power meter on the front and they were making from just a few watts to over five hundred on peaks. It was really glorious. I know this is a different ballpark in terms of cost, but I would assume that the stereo amp would have a similar house sound. I kind of put it out of my mind since they are not in any realm of affordability for me. I can still hear that fine system in my head though.
For reference, I really like ARC with Wilson. And I love all-Mbl systems too. |
Been following this thread for some time. Always was glad when there was a new post. So, now that you are done with your amplification quest, I wish you the best in dialing in your system for your own specific needs. Congrats! |
@whitecamaross
"Can’t maintain 2 threads. I prefer only one thread where people can follow my journey." Agreed. I was stoked to see it active and will be following along. |
@whitecamaross
Are you still using the Luxman C-900u/M-900u combo? I believe I remember you saying you bought the combo three time? That's very high praise.
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@whitecamaross
I like ARC. But I think your better bet is to get the Boulder and try for as much synergy as possible. I’ve heard the Ref 10 but not compared it to the Ref 6.
BTW, I've read this entire thread and am excited when new posts are available. I'm sure there are many just like me. |
@whitecamaross
This has been a very interesting thread. I logon to Audiogon just to read it everyday and I find the observations very interesting for sure. I'd bet many folks have really benefited from it.
One question: how long did you listen to the Black once back in the system? Did it have proper time to settle? I wonder if perhaps it was in the system for a day or two or at least the five hours you played the Ref10/Hegel combo? Don't get me wrong, I love ARC gear and my impressions of Hegel are also very good as well. But I do wonder if the Black system has had time to settle and do its best?
Diggin' on this thread; keep on auditioning
and
posting! |
I've heard the Momentums a number of times and if I recall correctly mostly with the matching Dag Preamp. This to me is a very good setup for sure. I've also heard them with ARC Ref6 and very good as well with Wilson
Audio Alexia II with giant REL subs (mostly sounded good but not always, I’m not sure that the system needed a sub at all). Also heard the Momentums with pre from the same line on Sabrina's with Bricasti M1 DAC and it very very good too. I do like D'Agostino gear a lot but it is priced with the upper end gear. It has a very seductive and refined sound.
@whitecamaross
Is the Black system still powering the Wilson's? Has it got any better or still not as good as the ARC/Hegel combo? |
@whitecamaross
"All I can tell you is that specs quite often (are) just exactly that... specs. You don’t really know how good something sounds until you bring it." This is so very true. |
@whitecamaross
FYI - This continues to be of my two favorite threads on the 'Gon. I'm here every day to read whitecamaross' updates.
I'm very intrigued by the fact that two of the amps that Mr. WC has owned that he loved so much are Class D. For me, I don't care what Class an amp is, I just care about the sound. I would like that said amp runs cool and that it sounds it's best without a two-hour warm up. That being said, I've heard a lot of systems in the last five years, both tube and SS, and the one that has my ear now and will eventually be in the house is powered by Class D. This system just sounds so real without being dry or fatiguing in anyway. Class D done right, as in really any other class of amp, just kills it. Once I work everything out and get the system setup here at home I will disclose more and also discuss my dealer, whom has literally been the most helpful and patient dealer I've ever dealt with.
Lest you think I'm just caught up in a certain class of amplification, I look most to equipment matching/synergy with the speaker you choose to use. Without this, you'll never hear the best a system can do.
Whitecamorss, thanks again for such a great thread. I'll be back tomorrow for more......... |
@charles1dad
"Too be consistent I am a proponent of actually listening to judge. However measurements/specifications can guide one’s selection process and narrow down the chance of an incompatible amp/speaker match." A great summation of specs and actual listening. Charles, thanks for that. We must never forget that the listening is the most important. And it is about what "you" hear and like. I'd think we all buy gear based on the sound we like and of course why would you do it any other way. Great conversation going on here. |
@whitecamaross
"All My amps are dead weight at this point." Then "
Looking into a great opportunity for another set of speakers that came to me just now... stay tuned :)". Wow, this thread just moves right along. Can't say it is boring around here!
@charles1dad
I do find it interesting that Guido says these amps have a long way to go, even now. I've read before he said they need a thousand hours to fully blossom. I do hope WC does give them a long time to speak their best. I wish I could be there to hear the sound, it must be simply sublime. -I have heard the Luxman 900 amp/pre amp combo a few times and just most recently on the full-sized Blades. Very smooth. |
@whitecamaross
Ok, per Guido, "my estimation of M925 breake-in of 1K to 1.5K hours was predicated on the units being new". So if they had a 100 hours, now you have 300-400 hours? Sounds like you have a ways to go but you are loving them, so have some fun. |
@whitecamaross
@charles1dad
As Charles mentions, "which model"? I'm curious what amp, and are we talking a Gryphon preamp for synergy as well?
Comeon' WC, share what Gryphon(s) are on their way.
Diggin' on the journey.
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@charles1dad
"There's art to putting a system together and most experienced audiophiles/music lovers acknowledge that." Exactly |
@whitecamaross
Wow, the equipment is flying off the shelves - apparently the 509X is already gone. I’ve heard the 509X a number of times and it is really good, for what it is. I’ve heard it with TAD Evo 1s and there was nothing unpleasant but the sound stage collapsed compared to the TAD Evolution separates. And that would be expected at such a great price deficit. Don't get me wrong, the 509X is a really good integrated making beautiful sound and so pleasing to the eye. |
I have two long-running favorite threads on the 'Gon, and this is one of them. I'm looking for it everyday and really enjoy reading the daily news. There are a lot of take-aways in this thread and what WC says often jives with my general views, such as, ARC preamps are very good, Class D can be amazing (I really like the TAD Evo components and will be assembling a system pretty soon), Wilson sounds very good (I really like the Sabrina and Alexx), Luxman is very good, etc. But I don't come here to get my views confirmed, I come here to enjoy reading WCs journey and he must be doing something right with this thread, there are many happy readers following alone. |
@jafox
Very friendly offer. Kudos. |
I’ve heard the 509X a few times in familiar systems at my dealers. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but if you only have $10k for an integrated, it is $10k very well spent. The 509X is in my eyes, just spectacular to look at. And the sound it makes is just as spectacular. It has good resolution, very tight and well-defined bass, super midrange, and very nice extended treble. This was on both the Marten Django L speaker and the TAD E-1s. It could play the E-1s quite well but the sound stage and instrument placing were there but just not very specific. In comparison, I’ve heard the 509 AXII, and for me, it isn’t even close; the 509X is just on a higher level. The 509X really worked well with the Django Ls and the 509 AXII struggled and I never felt it was a good match. I wish I had heard the 509 AXII on the E-1s, but I’m not sure there was any point.
Also heard the Pass INT 60 on the E-1s. Here are my notes from listening to the INT 60 "with the Pass the sound was nice and unobjectionable but I was not highly impressed. Everything seemed neutral with no exaggerated frequencies but it just didn’t have that snap and sparkle I look for. Nevertheless the sound was grit and grime free, the sound stage was wide and had depth with instrument stage delineation showing where each performer was located (sort of similar to the 509X) - again, instrument location was not real specific. Bass was decent, not as solid as the 509X but was well defined without sounding mechanical and mids and treble were also very nice too." In the end, I preferred the 509X quite a bit over the INT 60. Horses for courses of course. |
@guidocorona
+1 Guido! Saluti! |
@maplegrovemusic
Maybe he is lost in the music with no want to update the thread! |
I like ESLs; owned a pair for over ten years.
But will the Neolith be the same as the Vivid Audio speakers in that your room was too small for them?
Still reading this thread everyday I have access to a computer. Rock on..... |
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@whitecamaross
I understand your feelings perfectly well. This is YOUR thread and YOU are perfectly entitled to voice YOUR opinion. And for that I am grateful. Keep it up. This is still my favorite thread on the 'Gon.
I hope everybody will exercise self-control and let this thread get back on track. |
Agree with:
@bigdesign3
@grannyring
@thezaks
It is your thread, journey, etc. Enjoy it just like you like it. Apparently many others are too. This is usually my first thread to read for the day. |
Have recently heard the new version of the Momentum monoblocks with the matching preamp. Very smooth on the TAD R1 speakers and just loads of power to spare. Be aware that they run pretty hot as their rated output is all pure Class A. I have heard the original D'ag Classic Stereo amp about a year ago and it has massive control over the bass but it does not have the finesse of some of the better SOTA amps including the Momentum gear. For example, in the same system, a Nagra Classic amp, for me and my listening buddy, was much better than the D'Agostino Classic Stereo with all other components being the same including
Wilson Sabrina's
.
I've also heard the older Momentum separates with the Wilson Sabrina's (different system and time than the one noted above) and it was just spectacular. Liked it very much but it is well out of my comfort $$ zone. |
Wilson and D'Agostino is also another known match. I've heard it a few times and it was very good in several systems.
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I have heard the ARC 160Ms a number of times. Most recently with TAD ME-1s and CE1s, with a Ref10 and a turntable. That combination is just ridiculously good. Not syrupy or bloated, but nice firm but not quite SS bottom end, a midrange that has some bloom and is just lovely, and good SS quality highs. Very lively yet easy to listen to for hours.
BTW, heard the Sasha II W/P on Sunday with the ARC LS28/Ref75SE and that was very seriously good. Such a beautiful combo. ARC and Wilson have a well-known synergy.
So WC, I understand your comments on synergy. To me, synergy is key, crucial, king if you want a system to sound good. It takes a while to find the components/speakers that work well together but once you have, YOU WILL know it without a doubt. Sounds like you have found it here. Good for you. Rock on......... |
@viber6
I'll quote you here. "Maybe I can't do a sex change operation and convert the SS amp into a tube amp, but how about creating a 55%male/45% female or 30% tube/70% SS type of sound? No problem, completely legal, and no audiophile social stigma attached to that! As RIAA says, who cares what other people think, as long as you satisfy yourself..... Just EQ the whole thing for yourself. Tremendous empowerment is yours."
Totally agreed. I really is about how you want to hear the music. For crying out loud, this is why we do this thing, because of the pleasure we receive. Thanks for sharing all the EQ comments. |
Please, let's get this thread back on track.
WC, where are you? |
Wow, how quickly this thread goes off the rails. This is really cluttering up this thread. If this discussion is of great importance, and I'm not saying some may or may not find it compelling, please start a new thread so that this thread can get back on track. |
@riaa_award_collectors_on_facebook
That is more what I remember. He didn't want to spend $$$ for the preamp to see if it would sound better/synergize.
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Ok, I'm ready for the reveal...………….. |
As my good friend Mike Rose said yesterday, "there's no free lunch". He is totally right, there is tiering in audio because better chassis', parts, and engineering is easily hearable. |
@Ihasaguy
"electronic synergy to your speaker of choice has always seemed major in my eyes" This is THE most important factor. |
@mikepaul
Hi Mike, I've heard the new Progression stereo amp with the new Progression two-box preamp; paired with Sasha 2s, ARC Foundation Phone Pre, Luxman table - approx $15k total. System used Nordost interconnects and Transparent power cabling and line conditioning. I heard it at zero hours last Wednesday and it was very very good. Then on Sunday and it was the same - ultimately controlled at all volume levels. Very high resolution with extended and delicate upper registers, beautiful midrange, and well-controlled but textured bass. I realize the Progression is a step up but it has fairly similar specs and if you like the industrial steam punk look, it is a beauty not only to behold but to listen to as well. I think the pre/amp combo is right around $44k, so, not inexpensive.
I have heard the D'Agostino Classic Stereo amp (late 2017) with Nagra Classic Pre, DCS, Aurender, Sabrina's but liked the Nagra Classic amp quite a bit better. The D'Agostino Classic Stereo amp, the one time I heard it, was very good midrange on up but the vice grip on the bass suffocated the texture on the bass and that is why I liked the Nagra better - it had a little less control but lots of texture and palpability. The Nagra Classic pre & amp were $36k at that time. |
@mikepaul
Clarification: I meant the total cost of the turntable as equiped - table/arm/cartridge. |
It kind of blows my mind that folks will come in here and tell WC all "he is doing wrong" but from what can be ascertained of these comments/posters, they've not heard either the speaker or the combo of gear WC is using.
On the other hand, I find it refreshing that @dep14 has provided some useful data obtained from his own listening sessions. This will always be the most useful. It's called system synergy and it is about having equipment that works well together.
Though I'd assume that most of us do not have the working capital to support the efforts that WC is making, I applaud him for his passion in searching for that literal match made in heaven. Hope you find it when you are ready WC. |
@ricred1
@mikepaul
@riaa
X2
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I have owned both ESLs and the more traditional cone-type speakers. My outgoing system included Martin Logan Vantage's (12 years) and my current speaker choice is TAD. I've heard the 13a or 15a in the last six months and yes I liked them, but not enough to put them in contention. My new speaker does micro-dynamics that are far superior to any other speaker that I could afford or have owned and this is indeed the type of resolution I was looking for. Yes, it is also quite dynamic.
Paired with the right components, Wilson indeed has exceptional resolution. And they also have very high dynamics.
Resolution is overall frequency response and dynamics are just that, dynamics. I'm not sure that anyone here has the two confused.
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@techno_dude
The Wilson Sabrina is one of my favorite speakers; very very good at its price point of $16k. The Sasha 2s are even better, but they should be at $33.5k. I've heard both multiple multiple times and they are just great sounding.
The Sasha 2 is very significantly better than the Sopra 2s and I've heard the Sopra 2s a number of times. I don't know how the Sasha 2s compare to Magico, though I've heard a few of their models, I've never had the luxury of hearing Magico sound great.
Wilson do NOT lack for resolution, are very dynamic, and wonderful to listen to. Wilson loves Audio Research and D'Agostino. I've heard your Luxman amp with its matching preamp, but I don't remember hearing it with Wilson (was KEF Blades and maybe TAD).
Sabrina with Luxman 509X integrated is very good and I have heard this combo many times with the Luxman D-O5u CD player and Nordost cabling.
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@whitecamaross
So glad to read of your success and happiness with the current combo of gear. It REALLY is all about synergy. Apparently the D'Agostino just didn't pair so well with the Logans. And that is OK.
I've many times heard the Momentum gear with it's matching preamp and with the ARC Ref 10 pre. Both very satisfying. Also heard the new Progression stereo amp/pre amp combo on Sasha 2s a few times and it was very very nice. But for those saying that the DAG is warm and rolled off, that is not correct. It indeed has some warmth to it, but is very high resolution and paired with the right speaker, very very good. Beautiful extension at both ends of the frequency range and ultimately pristine in it's clarity and presentation. I don't own DAG but know it to be a very beautiful option. Again, when the DAG stuff is paired with the right speaker and other components, it is just a pleasure. I've seen the integrated WC has, but can't remember hearing it in a meaningful way.
Keep rockin' WC...……….
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@jetter
Totally agreed. Arm-chair quarterbacks need to lay off the rhetoric.
DAG and rolled off do not belong in the same sentence; that is pure gibberish.
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@whitecamaross
"I am holding off from beginning to do the cable swaps right now. i want to sit and listen for at least a full week. I need to get my ears adjusted to the sound so i can pick up the differences as i begin to make changes."
Very good way to at least break the ice with the new system. It sounds very fun and I'd imagine it brings a tear or two to the eye with just how incredible it sounds.
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Merry Christmas to WC and all.
@techno_dude
Just click on WCs user name, then you will see a photo of his system. Click on it and you’ll be able to view both photos. |
@mitch2
agreed on the "thicker skin". Workin' on that.
@ricred1
I think you are getting at system synergy. If so, I'd agree it is THE key, IMHO of course.
Hopefully 2019 will be less contentious here on the Gon'.
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Ref6 vs. Ref10 is no contest. And it is not supposed to be. Ref10 is bigger, better, more. It is not euphonic. I've heard both preamps many times and last heard the Ref10 two weekends ago.
@whitecamaross
Can't wait to read more about the new King in town.
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