Extremephono, You are confusing H2O amp designation with B&O nomenclature. They are not interchangeable. All H2O amps employ the B&O 500 A module. They are all rated 250 watts into 8 ohms, and 500 watts into 4 ohms.
Henry Ho, the H2O designer, has chosen not to use the ASP modules, nor the 250 A module, because they don't meet his needs. |
The "250W" ice power module 250A is really a 150W (RMS) amplifier. Read the data sheet. Similarly, the '1000W' 1000ASP module can only sustain 85W of continuous operation at 25-degree-C, and 40W at 50-degree-C before thermal shut down occurs. Even without thermal shut down, 1000ASP can only provide 1000W for 15 seconds.
Also check out the phase shift: 250A at 20Khz is -30deg, 1000ASP is -70deg (maybe that's why they sound 'tube-like'). |
Thanks for all your comments. The search continues. |
Thanks Muralmanl! One year doesn't seem like much, but I have not had any problems with my almost 2 year old eAR amp. I am looking forward to hearing what a beefy power supply can do to the ICE module. Grk. |
The CI Audio D100 monos have an anolog power supply. I'd be interested to know if anyone...especially the H2O groupies (and I mean that in the nicest way)...has heard the D100s. If so, how do they differ from the H20. How are they alike? |
Jeff
Let us know how they sound on the Soundlabs!
Thanks
Chuckie |
Lloydf,
Feel free to drop me an email and I could give you more info on other preamps I have used as well, however - in a nutshell I think the First Sound Presence Deluxe Mk II would be the best of both worlds of the two preamps you have just auditioned. The First Sound Presence Deluxe Mk II is a tube preamp, however it does not sound like a tube preamp in the classic, tubey sense. The music emminates from a drop dead, quiet background, is rythmic, dynamic (both micro and macro), and has the drive that usually only SS preamps have. However, being tube, you also get the liquidity and texture of the instruments and vocals. Do a search in the forums here, as there is a thread running now over the past month or two on the FS PD MK II... Drop some NOS tubes into the preamp and this is a keeper.
I have paralleled your experience in trying many preamps in the past. Most were good, however excelled in one area and left you wanting for a bit more in another. This preamp will be staying in my system. If anything, I may splurge down the road and upgrade it to the 4.0
Again, feel free to email with any other questions. I am no expert, and have not tried hundreds of preamps out there, however it is difficult when there aren't local dealers to audition the gear you are trying to gain some insight into, thus I would be more than happy to offer any experiences I have had in comparisons.
You mate the right preamp with that combo and I think you will only need to worry about what music you will listen to next... :) |
Hi guys. The Signature upgrade is definitely worth it. I'm one of Henry's original "launch customers" and early last year purchased three of his S250s for tri-amping my Apogees. Well after a few months I started bugging Henry to try taking the S250 to the max..a signature version. After several months of phone calls and strategizing, he came up with stacked transformers, better caps, faster diodes, silver wiring plus other goodies. Right around X-mas, Henry said he was ready to give it a try so I sent my three amps back to act as guinea pigs. They had turned the 500-hour corner and were really opening up so I was a bit hesitant but boxed them up.
Boy am I glad I did! I'm at about the 1000-hour mark on these guys and they are definitely more open and transparent than the originals. The bass in particular is now very tight but bouncy and meaty too. I feel no need or desire to re-install my Tact amps and this is very high praise indeed. Excellent all the way around.
They DO need lots of break in. Henry actually sent me new amps as he really liked how the others sounded and wanted to use a couple of them as demos (which people keep wanting to buy!). Right out of the box I really didn't care for them but I knew better. I break amps in by running TV sound and cable fm thru them 24/7 so I can build up hours fast. After 100-150 hours their tonal balance settled in but the imaging was vague. At the 300-hour mark, things were much more organized but also still a bit "dark". The next time I listened to them seriously was at about 600 hours. Man what a difference! Very open & dynamic. And now at the 1000 hour mark they are superb and very artifact free with that sense of reality that the Tact amps have when driven via their digital inputs but with a DRIVE the Tacts don't have via the big Aps.
Like the Tact amps these guy really do benefit from being plugged into my PS Audio P-600 and then individually fed thru an ultimate outlet.
Perhaps tomorrow I'll get the chance to here one of them driving a friends big Sound Labs (currently being fed by the Parasound JC-1s). That should be interesting.
Jeff |
Welcome to the party, Grk. I came to H2O by way of the eAR II as well. H2O amps have a one year warranty, parts, or mechanical. From what I've heard, delivery can be made within two weeks. That's not Gospel. |
Hello:
My turn to jump in. I also have recently stumbled into finding out about the H20 amps. I have the Acoustic-Reality eAR II amp with the Jeff Rowland Synergy IIi preamp... driving a pair of DALI Helicon 400 speakers. (I can recommend the JR preamp with an ICE powered amp since it seems to have both SS and tube characteristics.) But after reading the discussion forums and the 6 Moons review, I contacted Henry (a very nice person to deal with I might add!) to inquire about getting the H2o Signature for audition. Apparently the shipping box for the audition unit has been trashed from all of the handling so Henry had to a new box to the person who is currently auditioning. I'm hoping to get the unit any day and can report on my findings. By the way, what is the warranty on Henry's amps and how long does it take to get one from when the order is placed? Thanks. |
Lloydf-Since your not looking for big name remote controlled preamps you might be interested in the Reflection Audio Quantum. Unfortunately there aren't many out there so the reviews are few if any. Don't let the battery power supply turn you off, it really works well.
The builder is a great guy and worth a phone call or an email to discuss what your looking for in a preamp. |
Audiofankj,
I've probably got less than 50 hours on my S250, so far. The Von Schweikert's aren't broken in yet either, so I was absolutely floored by how good the combination sounded right out of the box. I suspect that everything will improve with time. I'll keep you informed on my progress. I have one last question for you. I've had the First Sound Presence deluxe at the top of my Preamp wish list, but I'm not truly a tube lover. I much prefer the crystal clear more analytical sound and dynamics of most SS preamps. I've listened to a demo of the FSPD with my speakers, but not with this new applifier. In your opinion, how much would I be giving up going with the FSPD? I've asked you this question before, but in your travels, have you found a particular preamp that would get me closer to where I want to go? The Boulder preamp has the sound I like, but I can't afford it.(Atleast, not with a clear conscience.) I've read a recent 6 moons article on the Brazilian Audiopax Model 5 that sounds interesting, but the chat groups or other reviewers haven't given it much traction yet. I could order it blindly, but I hesitate to do something like that. Your thoughts would be appreciated. |
Lloydf-
How many hours do you have on your amp now? I ask because in my case (similar dynamic speaker load as yours) the amps seemed to take much longer to break in than those with more demanding loads (such as those driving Apogee's)...
I experienced significant improvement after the first 50-150 hours, and continued improvement well into 500 hours, and the last bit of the vocals becoming fully fleshed out and tube like was close to 800 hours if I recall correctly or so.
Keep us posted on how they evolve with time for you, please. I may be looking into a S250 for a secondary system in a few months... thank you for your input. |
Greetings all.
Since my last post, I've taken the plunge and had Henry build me an S250 signature. All I can say is, Boy am I glad I stumbled into this chat group. I'd have never found out about this wonderful product without it. Thanks all. Right out of the box, it sounded great to me and seems to be improving with each passing minute. Mine has been paired with both the Sim Audio P-5 and Conrad Johnson PR18 LS preamps, the Von Schweikert VR 4 HSE speakers and a Sim Audio Equinox CDP. Shifting preamps seems to make significant changes in the overall flavor of the system. The PR18LS is apparently voiced more like a tube preamp and has similar characteristics, while the P5 seemed more SS, more dynamic and less colored. This is definately a keeper. In closing, I'd like to mention that a local audio dealer stopped by during my demo. (He's trying to sell me one of the two preamps mentioned above.) I'd mentioned to him that I purchased Henry's amp. He wasn't too familar with any of the new D or T class amplifiers and wanted to hear one first hand. During his visit, he looked it over and comment on its fit and finish. He picked it up and commented that it must have some major transformers to weigh that much. He stood there listening to it for a minute and than said, "What did you pay for that again?" After I told him, he just shook his head and said, amazing. Again, thanks for all your comments and assistence. |
I have run my Bel Canto evo4 on a friends Soundlab U2's and was not happy at all. The sound was immediately thin and bright'ish. Just no body and little emotion. Yet on my Magnepan 3.6's, the sound with the evo amplifier was outstanding.
The LC output filter in these digital amps don't sit particularly well with the transformer crossovers (with their associated wide variation in impedance) used in the Soundlab speakers. Also, Soundlabs and other electrostatics have very low inertia diaphrams and best performance, or that which is more critically damped, is ususally obtained with amplifiers featuring lower damping factors (a little output impedance). Just how much this really gives rise to the "thinness" is speculative though. Proper damping seems to have more effect on a systems musicality (or emotion). I think most of the perceived thin sound character is due to the LC output filter and the particular reactive crossover used in Soundlabs.
The Atmasphere OTL series works particularly well with Soundlabs. Other OTL amplifiers will likely also work well since some of their design philosophy is similar. Actually, tube amps in general with their relatively benign resistive plate impedance tend to mate well with Soundlabs.
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Is anyone using these with electrostatic/Soundlab,Martin Logans,etc speakers? I must admit that I am being intriqued by all the buzz about these amps.I presently own a ARC-D150 power and I am on the fence big time.
Regards
Chuckie |
I still think/suspect I just didn't have the right cables and that what made my interaction with the H2O not work for me at this time. I think it's a great amp anyway. Now that has to be some sort of odd statement. My tubes, in comparison, aren't as exciting. |
LLoydf, my comments above regarding my impression of the H20 signature were based on using an Audio Research Reference II tubed preamp. |
Lloyd, You found the one seemingly ambiguous line in the whole review. The
writing went like this,
"Tubes create a certain texture which these amps don't. Tubes can be
very transparent but to my ears, it's a transparency modified in different
frequency bands and modulated by certain layering and soundstaging effects.
The latter are highly addictive ( consider me a major addict). But they are
effects. They simply do not ever arise in real life."
The H2O will not add any effects, good or bad, to the recording. It just excels
on digging out the deepest nuances of the recording. I find that much more
addicting.
I believe a little bit of tubes is a good thing. My DAC has tubes. My preamp is
a class A solid state. |
Lloydf, my experience in using both a SS preamp and tube preamp with SS amps, a tube amp and digital switching amps is that the tube preamp adds a touch of three dimensionality and "life" to the presentation of SS and digital switching amps that is otherwise lacking. This is not an overwhelming change, but a change that can be heard, nonetheless.
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Help! In reading back over all of the discussions and reviews on Henry's amplifiers, it appears that the best synergies have been found with tubed preamps. Is that true or am I just reading something into it that really isn't there? I've just ordered the S 250 sig. and discussed the same question briefly with Henry. I'm not really a tube lover, but prefer the more neutral sound of most good SS preamps. Having said that, I'm a bit concerned with the recent comments made in the 6 moons review relating to there "lack of texture." I realize that the reviewer is a confirmed tube lover and that may just have been his way of stating the obvious differences between tubes and SS. In any event, what used SS or tubed preamp in your opinion would best get me to where I want to go? My speakers are the Von Schweikert VR 4 HSE and I will most likely be using the Sim Audio Eclipse SE, as my source. Thanks in advance for your assistance. |
I recently auditioned the Signature Stereo H20 in my system and liked it so much that I put an order in for one. Like Woodburger, I have an Audio Research VT100 MKII amp. I did not hear any of the problems that Woodburger reported in his system but I don't have networked cables either. Compared to my Audio Research VT100 tubed amp, the H20 is more dynamic with better controlled bass, more transparent, and drives my large ProAc speakers with more authority and slam. It also has a wonderful warm midrange and a smooth top end too. At the same time it gets the timbre and the harmonic neuances of acoustical instruments right and does this at least as well as my tubed amp which really suprised me. It does not sound in anyway like any of the Solid State amps that I have had in my system in the past. I never thought that I would ever get away from a tubed amp but the H20 has demonstrated that this is possible even for a tubeophile. The bottom line is that it really connects me to the music and that is why I am purchasing it. |
rpw
My amp was purchased as a Signature S250.
Carlton |
Woodburger, try the Goertz MI2 AlphaCore cables. They worked really well with the M250s I auditioned in my home. I believe you can buy them in lengths from AlphaCore and terminate them yourself without getting too spendy. I have owned MIT T2 and Analysis Plus 8 and ims the Goertz were far better. I have not tried them on a setup yet where they did not sound good.
I have the flat ones which are supposed to be better than the newer Boas. |
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can the regular s-250 upgraded to the Signature 250? |
It was odd. As if the mix of certain CDs (and not all of them) had been altered... some things were pushed farther into the mix. I had to turn it up to an uncomfortable point to retrieve them. I also thought (not really sure about this due to the fact I have a new room) that bass was emphasized.
I want to point out Henry Ho said that the network boxes would screw things up, and I believe he was right. He's a good guy with a good product at a great price.
I had three days listening with Anti-Cables after that, and thought they were much more harmonically correct than my Transparent Refs with the H20, but I couldn't fall in love for whatever reason - and it might have been listener's fatigue, to be honest with you and myself.
The H20 is a very very clean amp, IMHO, and if ever I can figure out how to listen to it on what I'd deem worthy wire without spending a fortune, I'd love to listen again. My goal was to get away from the tubes/retubing of my VT100 MKII - a great amp - just that I prefer the thought of no warm up, etc.
I search for a word - would have to say the VT is "cushioned" versus my brief run with the Anti-cables and H20 S250 sig... that combo was more dynamic and very very clean. |
Woodburger,
What problem did you have? I run MIT cables (that I love! - but not as much as my wife) and am curious what problems you had sonic wise.
Thanks
Bill |
Woodburger, and all, if you can get past the price, which is $1600/pair, and think of them as world class digital amps, I'd suggest trying the Channel Islands Audio D100 monos (100wpc) designed by Dusty Vawter or the NuForce Reference 8 monos (100wpc) modified by Ric Shultz of EVS. Ric is a dealer for the NuForce amps, and sells them with his Level 1 mod included in the price. 30 day MBG. I heard the original 70wpc Reference 8 monos and thought they were incredibly clear, transparent and tight, but a touch sterile. Ric claims his mod corrects the sterility and makes them very musical. In fact, Ric gave up on the design of his own IcePower based amps when he heard the NuForce. I have a pair ordered.
Dusty Vawter's CI Audio D100 monos are tremenously musical amps. These also sell for $1600 direct from CI Audio. I presently have a pair of the D100 in my system.
I have been trying to find a low-cost replacement for my VAC Phi 110/110. I don't know yet if either of these digital amps will do it, since it's too early in the break-in process to judge, but I can say the 70wpc NuForce were amazing in their own right, and just three days out of the box, the D100 monos would be my choice over the Bryston 4B SST that I once owned.
Woodburger, I should add that I'm using 30 foot speaker cables, and neither amps have had a problem. The length of my cables was the primary reason for my post.
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FWIW:
I just auditioned the sig S250 and it didn't like my Transparent Ref networked cables. Henry suggested this would happen to me, but I have long cable runs and couldn't easily find a good substitute cable without it getting real spendy.
My friend also auditioned one (he doesn't have networked cables) and placed an order. He's in love.
If anyone wants to donate 26 foot quality speaker cables, I'd place an order right away. |
Mrcaspence1 did you purchase a Signature S250 or did you get the upgrade? I am curious as to the improvements over the standard S250. I currently have a S250 and am thinking of the upgrade, but would like to know what improvements to expect. I am using this amp to drive WATT 5.1's to great effect. |
I own the above amp. Words cannot describe my pleasure in owning this amp.
Carlton |
