New Yggdrasil - First (and second) Impressions
Thanks guys. @blindjim -Yes, I too read of the long time for the Yggy to blossom. I suppose I was just hopeful that I’d readily detect at least a slight difference immediately (right of the box) and then gradual but noticable improvement over time. As for my cable box, honestly I just connected it without changing any settings. I’ve been in the settings menu a number of times and the audio options are very limited. Of course, I realize that the Yggy only does PCM. In my case that is fine and actually preferred, because I didn’t want to spend anything extra on DSD or MQA which is of no interest to me (because my collection of music is all PCM). @ghosthouse - I shall focus my listening (to "hear" the Yggy) on the items you mention. Yes, I can run a constant source through it. The manual just indicates to leave it on and doesn’t specify to run music through it, but your advice here seems reasonable. I take it the input wouldn’t/shouldn’t matter (i.e. coax, optical, etc. should produce the same "burn in"). @shadorne - The A/B comparison test I’m speaking of would be the same source material and through the same player. For example, I have my Emotiva ERC-3 connected to the Yggy via AES/EBU, and the ERC-3 is also connected directly to my amp via RCA. So if I play a CD on it, I’ve toggled the amp input from balanced (where Yggy is the source) to CD (where ERC-3 is the source) during playback of the CD to try and discern a difference. The balanced connection is louder of course at the same volume level, so I’m disregarding that aspect and trying (just by ear and casually) to perhaps hear something "different". It could be that my hearing just isn’t "precise" enough, but I suspect whatever difference the Yggy brings to the table is subtle at best (not that it would be a bad thing if nothing more than subtle). |
Agreed the UDP-205 is superb. And yes, I have directly compared the OPPO to the YGGY, keeping all other factors constant, and (so far) found little difference. Frankly, I wasn't expecting tremendous difference. If there were tremendous difference, something would be amiss. At this early stage, if I were to blind test the two (Oppo/Yggy) in an attempt to pick one apart from the other, I *think* (haven't actually tried "blind" as I am aware of my choosing the input source) I would be able to tell the Yggy as it does appear to sound ever so slightly less "digital" than the Oppo. Very subtle though. But I do consider a slightly less digital sound a welcome and worthwhile change/upgrade. I thought of a modwright tube modification to the Oppo instead of buying the Yggy, but for various reasons opted not to go that route. I'm still trying to "figure this out", especially while I'm in the return policy window. Perhaps I'm trying a bit too hard. |
What I'm also finding a bit peculiar here is the Yggy has a phase inversion button. The manual states to use whatever one of the two possible settings (on/off) sounds best. Even that I'm finding difficult to discern any difference. In that case, besides "normal" music passages, I am using a Denon Audio Technical CD that has an in and out of phase track. I'll be doing some more "critical" listening/evaluation later today. Again, I appreciate everyone's comments, advice, etc. Thank you. |
Again, I truly remain very appreciative to everyone’s input. At this early stage of owning and listening to the Yggy I am inclined to keep it. I’m honestly not even considering returning it. On the bright side, I’m very happy with sound of my equipment (collectively). At the moment (well, just prior to this post) I’m specifically listening to an acoustic set of music (Grateful Dead source gd80-09-29.sbd.hinko.21926.sbeok.shnf) and it does sound rather incredible. But, I remain of the opinion that my system already sounded incredible without the Yggy. @ghosthouse mentioned to listen (from a comparison perspective) for "greater dimensionality" . I’m honestly inclined to think there is some advantage here that the Yggy brings to the table, versus my Oppo. I can somehow sense better quality sound has been introduced, as there does appear to be a bit more omnipresence to the sound stage. Hard to pinpoint, but ghosthouse’s description of dimensionality I think is accurate. I also think/hear *some* degree of "digititis" has been removed. The other suggestions of isolation and better cables is also well received (by me anyway), and I have little/no doubt that too would yield some improvement. However, I would expect marginal improvement with that type of upgrade, in comparison to the upgrade of installing the Yggy, a completely new component. I’ll keep the isolation/cables in mind for my next upgrade, but at the moment I’ll let the dust settle (for a few weeks at least) with the Yggy acquisition before committing any more dollars to this seemingly never ending hobby. |
.....though when you aren’t listening, I’d still advocate running signal to the Ygg even with your amp muted..... I’ve taken that under serious advisement. In fact, I’ve posed the question to Schiit tech support. The manual does indicate to leave it on continuously, but falls short of stating it needs/wants signal continuously during break-in or any other period. Running a signal to it continuously should be overkill IMO, irrespective of electric cost and any other equipment degradation. Modern day electronics just shouldn’t require "continually powered on" be the case. In fact, my thinking in this regard is (or should be) "leave the Yggdrasil on continuously for the most euphoric sound you’ve ever heard in your life". Then, when powered off and subsequently called upon to play music, power said device on and exclaim "Wow, check out how great this sounds from a cold start. I’m almost in a state of euphoria. Wish I had left it on the past 24 hours." Nevertheless, I respect and appreciate that advice and will post herein whatever Schiit support replies (assuming they do so). |
@randy-11 I only listen to and collect live music in flac 16/44 or better format. That said, I have plenty of hi-rez "sample stuff" that I’m able to playback via the Oppo, and the Yggy recognizes it as high res given the change in its front panel LEDs. EDIT: What I also mean to indicate is that I only listen to and/or collect music in a LOSSLESS format. Nothing lossy - regardless of file format, band, rarity of recording, etc. - is acceptable to my ears. |
UPDATE: 1 - Regarding the burn in of said unit, per Schiit Audio "Running music through it is not necessary for burn in; only that it is on and left on." 2 - I have connected SE output (RCA) cables from the Yggy to my amp. The RCA cables are identical to the RCA cables I'm using for other component connectivity to the amp. I did this merely to facilitate a more accurate A/B comparison. XLR also remains connected. 3 - The sound I'm getting from USB (in to Yggy) is phenomenal. Definitely noticeably better than connecting USB directly to my amp, which also has a USB DAC. 4 - Their 15 day return policy window is unwavering. However, the clock starts from when I signed for it from Fedex. I'm fine with that policy as I was aware of this before purchasing it. I am currently NOT of the mindset to return it. I only mention this because I recall some posts herein indicating that burn-in can take much longer than 15 days, so my trial/evaluation wouldn't necessarily include a completed/proper burn-in period. |
If you have to go through this much coddling and craziness to just hear a small small difference is it really worth it? There is not that much A B difference between good digital.......The Yggy has a great rep and is certainly a super Dac. I maintain that differences in quality dacs is not that easy to hear. @mr_bill BTW, in response to your question, "maybe". I too have heard (from the dealer I purchased my amp and speakers from) that there is not much difference to be heard between *good* DACs. I'm certain this is one reason I'm having a hard time discerning any. Thank you for your feedback as it serves as some confirmation to what I'd already believed is the case. On an unrelated to Yggy but within the realm of music note, you wouldn't happen to be Bill "G", who disseminates such terrific Grateful Dead soundboards such as gd81-10-12.128591, would you. :) |
@brhatten - Welcome to the forum. I appreciate the link regarding others impressions of break in, etc. I can assure you, I read every piece of Yggy info on the Internet once and in some cases twice before ultimately deciding it was the best purchase (in my particular case and for my needs/wants). Honestly, it was this forum in particular, coupled with professional reviews that I valued most. Nevertheless, I'll glance over portions of the head fi site once again. Best of luck with your Yggdrasil. And don't be bashful. Please post your impressions (in this thread or elsewhere). @david_ten - good advice on your part. Thank you. To your point about leaving it on while listening to the Oppo, in fact, I am leaving it on 24/7 regardless of any other component I'm listening to and even while not listening. I have some reservations about that because of increased cost (electric) and decreased longevity of the units capacitors (as shadorne was kind enough to educate me in that regard). The electric I knew before hand, upon reading the Schiit manual. I suppose in the grand scheme of things, those are not truly negative concerns, and good "problems" to have. From an investment perspective and with an eye toward resell, typically I do not engage in such matters. My expectation is that future monetary value would be a fraction of the cost of new. Therefore, if I'm wrong, all the better. @whitestix - perhaps your question would be better suited for Schiit instead of Oppo. But I agree, as I have stated repeatedly on this forum and elsewhere, the Oppo sounds great. I have no experience with the 103 though, but from what I understand from the AVS forum, if you like your 103 for sound, you'll love the 205. |
Did you compare it against the Oppo yet?Yes, of course. In this context the comparison I'm doing is playing some flac 16/44 or higher via the Oppo's USB port. The Oppo is connected to my amp via RCA, and connected to the Yggy via coax. The Yggy is also connected to the amp via the same RCA type cable. At the moment, I cannot hear any *profound* difference. Whatever difference there may be is subtle at best. Overall, with the Yggy things do seem a fraction less digital and a bit more "open" (space between instruments). However, this could very well be placebo too. Further, and as you know given the past years worth of posts I've made specific to the Oppo (UDP205), I have always stated it is a stellar performer. So, I would expect that the Oppo *should* be tough to best. Many have suggested and I come to understand it can be extremely difficult to differentiate among good digital/DACs. This is something that frankly I thought it best for me to find out first hand. I am also open to the unfortunate possibility that my own personal hearing capability may be insufficient to detect any difference. However, I do take some solace in believing that some advantage, even if only theoretical, has been introduced. And I am open minded to theoretical advantage. For instance, I use 6 feet of speaker wire instead of 30 because the 6 feet offers less resistance. Would I hear a difference if I used 30 instead? Of course not. Still better to use 6 though, as I think you would agree. I remain hopeful some more burn in and time will cause a blossoming of sorts as many others have suggested will be the case. |
Thx - I'm hoping that the Oppo is not distinguishable from the Yggy... @randy-11 So should I take your statement to mean you are reliant on my opinion alone? You yourself did state only a few months ago in the Oppo thread "Bottom line - the OPPO 205 universal disc player/DAC is not quite as good as a $6k purpose built DAC, right?" as well as other posts indicative of the fact that you recognize and agree that a purpose built DAC would be superior to Oppo. |
@chayro The "buzz" in this case specifically has to do with the fact that the Yggy is mulitbit R2R ladder technology, whereas the other DACs I have are all delta-sigma. Further, the buzz is such that it leads one to believe mulitbit is "audibly better". And that would be in addition to the purportedly "better" analog stage and implementation of said DAC in the Yggy, relative to the Oppo. |
I'm not the one saying there is no difference between the Oppo and Schitt - you are. @chayro Not true. What I'm reporting is that I do not *hear* a difference. By virtue of this thread, I have sought the input of others to provide opinions and facts as to what I could or should do to hear an audible difference (and with the assumption my ears and other audio gear are capable). |
@bcgator Your previous post is well stated. I appreciate your sincerity, and I am rather inclined to agree with you. Fortunately, and in my particular case, while the expenditure certainly isn't something I would want to just "piss away", this particular cost of $2400 or so is well within my means. I prefer it sitting on my salamander audio rack as opposed to sitting in a long term CD at 3% or thereabouts. That said, I am also taking into consideration the many folks who suggest more time is needed. Yet another avenue I am exploring is to enlist the listening ears of some other audio aficionados. Stay tuned.... |
@bacobits1 Thanks for your encouraging post. I have heard and read so much about having to leave it on continually and the fact that the break in period is many hours/days/weeks after initially powered on. I am hopeful it works out for me the way you describe. As to why I am not hearing a difference already, I attribute this to two things. One, I already have good digital. Many folks here have confirmed it is difficult to distinguish among good digital. Second, my own hearing *could* be inadequate to discern the particular subtleties involved. Unless a real metamorphosis takes place I can't understand at this early juncture what all the hype over this piece is. However, and as I've stated before, I am open to theoretical advantage. Meaning, if this multibit DAC truly is bit perfect (or closer to perfect than delta sigma) with redbook, that in itself should equate to "better quality sound", irrespective of whether or not I can "hear" or perceive it as such. I'll also add that I intentionally stopped well short of purchasing the myriad of DACs that are available in excess of 10K for this reason. I knew the expenditure was to some extent, a "gamble". Since it cost a lot to win, and even more to lose, you and me bound to spend some time wondering what to choose. |
@jerroldls - thank you. @rvpiano - the new Oppo UDP-205 is purportedly better than the 105D, as reported by numerous owners (of both) on the AVS forum. The "dimensionality" aspect you refer too is also something ghosthouse mentioned and I am focusing my evaluation listening so as to concentrate on that. I appreciate your feedback. |
All - I consider my concern/inquiry regarding NOT hearing any difference when using the Yggy *phase inversion button* resolved. Per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_phase "Some audiophiles claim that reversing the polarities of all the channels simultaneously makes a subtle perceptible difference in the reproduced sound, even though the relative phases of all the channels are preserved. ... In practice, the absolute phase of an audio system can be assumed to be inaudible." The broader and more important question as to why I do not hear a difference when compared to the Oppo UDP-205 still remains though. |
@georgehifi I appreciate your contributions to this particular thread, because I know by reading elsewhere on the forum (within the past 18 months or so) that you are a proponent of the Yggdrasil. And, from what I can glean, you are a proponent not merely because you own/use the product, but because you truly believe or absolutely know with certainty that (a) multi-bit ladder R2R is superior to delta sigma and perhaps more importantly (b) that Schiit's *implementation* is exemplary. So, are you able to recommend a musical or sound passage - that can be downloaded freely in lossless format via the Internet - and indicate the time index (from-to) and specific nuance to listen to, in order to unequivocally state that multi-bit sounds better - as in readily audible - than delta sigma, or an Oppo UDP-205 specifically? |
@georgehifi So, are you able to recommend a musical or sound passage - that can be downloaded freely in lossless format via the Internet - and indicate the time index (from-to) and specific nuance to listen to, in order to unequivocally state that multi-bit sounds better - as in readily audible - than delta sigma, or an Oppo UDP-205 specifically? |
I don't do downloads, I find them inferior with every a/b we've done at our audio society meetings, maybe it's the hardware or the downloads themselves?? But it's enough to put me off them.@georgehifi Seriously? Okay, forget the "that can be downloaded freely in lossless format via the Internet" portion of my question. So, are you able to recommend a musical or sound passage, and indicate the time index (from-to) and specific nuance to listen to, in order to unequivocally state that multi-bit sounds better - as in readily audible - than delta sigma, or an Oppo UDP-205 specifically? |
You can prove it to your self, just listen to the discrete R2R Multibit offerings from the ones I pointed out and compare them to you delta sigma Oppo ESS unit using the same PCM material, if you still can;t hear any difference it’s time to throw in the hifi towel. @georgehifi With all do respect, your replies to date to my questions (within this thread) are rather evasive. It’s almost as if you are obstinate. I’m on your side, remember? I too have the Yggdrasil and have embraced (for now) multibit R2R. Presumably, you too have performed a side-by-side Yggy comparison to delta sigma. Perhaps my questioning needs to be more targeted. What music - SPECIFIC ARTIST AND SPECIFIC TRACK/SONG - can you recommend, and WHAT QUALITY (cymbal, bass, spacing, separation, imaging, etc.) within that track should I - or anyone else wishing to compare multibit and delta sigma - listen, or attempt to listen for? Edit: CHEERS |
I don't own a Yaggy, but from all reports it is a well done Multibit, and to me should be discernable for the better over an Oppo DS using the same PCM source material, try feeding both a CD from a proper transport, maybe it the download junk that doing a great equalising job on both for you. Is something from here download junk? I think not. http://www.2l.no/hires/index.html I can play the majority of those files from a USB flash drive connected to the Oppo. Pick one, please. Then, let me know which one you picked, and at what time index within the track you exclaim "WOW, AHA, I GET IT, THIS SOUNDS SO MUCH BETTER THAN DELTA SIGMA BECAUSE..." |
I’m also curious about George’s recommendations. @stfoth I’m very appreciative of your reply. Thank you. To your points: Would you suggest then listening to this source of Rebecca Pidgeon Spanish Harlem? http://hostuje.net/file.php?id=474eb0e4c6a97d2ab1e0ffcfd9d53fda Secondly, with regard to using a CD, while I’m of the opinion that wouldn’t and shouldn’t matter (in lieu of same from USB), I have two CDs that can act as transport. An Oppo UDP-205 and an Emotiva ERC-3. So, are we saying that if I have a recording on CD and play from one of those players, I should (or might) expect different results than if I play the same (ripped from CD) file on a USB stick from the Oppo? |
@whitestix Thank you. I appreciate the good advice *not* to overthink this. As you point out, the Schiit audition window is only 15 days (compared to Benchmark which I was told is 30) and *supposedly* the unit needs longer than that to break in. So, it is a dilemma of sorts. I’m honestly trying to give the product every bit of whatever doubt I might have. Fortunately, I wasn’t expecting a "night-and-day" difference relative to the sound I had/have without the Yggy. If there were, something would be amiss. I would be content and pleased with marginal, subtle improvement. However, I want and need my own ears to provide evidence of said improvement. Like the Rolling Stones would say, "I’m just sittin’ on a fence. You can say I got no sense" :) |
@randyhat - understood and your advice is sound (no pun intended) but wait!.... @stfoth - Using the source I found of Rebecca Pidgeon Spanish Harlem (thank you for that recommendation, and which windows reports a bit rate of 2967kbps and the Yggy LEDs indicate 48 and x2, so that is hi-rez), I have listened to random sequences of about 15 seconds or so, and low and behold, I may (I'd like to try this blind, unable to do so at the moment) have "found the difference"! Mind you, all I need/want is some iota of evidence that there is an "improvement". But what I've discovered may be more than an iota, and instead just my own increased understanding as to what to listen for. Within the track, from time segment 1:55 remaining to 1:45 remaining (albeit 10 seconds), there is bass, violin, and a maracas. Through the Yggy, the bass is definitely more pronounced, more "authentic" sounding, and it vibrates or "lingers on" just a hair longer than when played via the Oppo. The violin too appears a tad bit more authentic; and that is fine, if in fact it is a more accurate reproduction. I'm still "testing", but I *think* I'm beginning to hear a quality difference. Again, I appreciate the test track recommendation. It was also suggested by a friend of mine to specifically listen for "cymbal decay". I am able to download samples here https://freesound.org/, and will listen to that too. |
By the way everyone, I received a reply on the head-fi forum, *supposedly* from Mike Moffat himself (I have asked for confirmation of that) regarding my question about the phase inversion button. His response: "....I can state that the absolute phase is a holdover from the Theta DACs I designed some 40 years ago. In that era, the greater majority of systems were two channel. The effect in time domain accurate speakers with better mastered material is difference in image size. In the wrong position, the image collapses between the speakers. The difference is that in one absolute phase, the music "blows" relatively speaking - in the other it "sucks"." @georgehifi - yes, I realize you too mentioned (paraphrasing) this in your 10-18-2017 7:24pm post. |
@stfoth I remain appreciative of your recommendations regarding music. So you should know, I am not completely blind in this regard. I have at my disposal the following, in optical format, and I tend to use the following. 1) Sportin Life (all tracks) by Weather Report. This disk was used in the 80's by Leonard Radio (Manhattan NY) to demo all their equipment at the time. They sold rather high-end and pricey items. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportin%27_Life_(Weather_Report_album) 2) Denon Audio Technical CD. It has a number of tracks with sample music that covers the entire gamut of frequency range, dynamic range, imaging subtleties, etc. http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1526639/a/denon+audio+technical+cd.htm 3) Sony Music Super Audio CD Sampler http://www.amazon.com/Music-Super-Audio-Sampler-Players/dp/B003UQ4CXC |
@randyhat - I understand your point and its well taken. I'm beginning to become a believer in the Yggy though, relative to the sound from my Oppo. While I'm still in the honeymoon/experimental stage, I can share that as I write this, I do NOT believe I will be returning it. That said, yes, comparison is difficult. However, I'm also starting to realize that comparison isn't quite as difficult if you know or are told exactly what to listen for, and in this regard I'm getting a rapid education. @stereo5 - nice of you to chime in here. Yes, I am enjoying the T Refs very much. They truly are incredible, especially when *value* enters into the equation. You'll recall I contacted you to inquire about the Sony HAP-Z1ES. That was on my radar (to purchase instead of the Yggy) during my early decision making process. I believe this is the Sony music server you are speaking of. I checked into the Sony thoroughly, but didn't like the fact that it uses "a Direct Stream Digital (DSD) Re-mastering Engine" and that it "converts analog to digital at 24 bit / 96 Hz". Also didn't like that it *seemingly* isn't plug and play (when connecting a USB it copies to its hard drive). I have no clue how it sounds, however, I understand from the few posts I've read from owners that it does sound good. It's also at the same price point as the Yggy. Nevertheless, I wanted multibit R2R. I only listen to redbook CD and higher rez PCM, so in my particular case I'm confident in the Yggy. Nice to read from you that you feel the Esoteric, which is R2R, sounds noticeably better. Many other people also claim R2R sounds better, which was a major reason I chose to buy one. |
I believe the gdhal is interested in hearing better sound. I didn’t see a list of his components. IMHO a worthwhile improvement should be immediately recognizable. I suggest returning the Yggy immediately and use the funds to buy a used Equitech 2Q. Unless you are already using balanced power I think you will “immediately” notice a “significant” improvement to your 205. @ptss The first post in this thread lists my gear. I already have great sound, even without the Yggy. I could be content without the Yggy, any external DAC, or any other component change. Generally speaking, all of my gear has exceptional *value* (price, quality, performance ratio). I’m simply looking (but may have found it courtesy of the Yggy) for an incremental upgrade. I’m not using balanced power, but I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t provide an “immediate” and “significant” improvement to the sound I already have. |
To reiterate, I think the Oppo CD's players are simply astounding in their ability to reproduce digital music and perhaps are the best price/performance audio components extant. @whitestix Agreed, the Oppo's are "simply astounding in their ability to reproduce digital music and perhaps are the best price/performance audio components...." However, overall I would give whatever edge *in sound* to the Yggy relative to Oppo 205, using its default mini phase fast filter setting. However the "edge" in overall value clearly goes to the Oppo. |
@dc_bruce You’re post is rather informative, especially coming from a person whose only made two of them. Yes, I have an acquaintance with a good system. There isn’t a need to go that route at the moment as I *can* discern a difference. Blind A/B testing though is inconclusive at the moment. I’ve enlisted the ears of my (bass guitar musician) friend and we have listened together for about 4 hours. I need to digest his feedback, our overall preference, etc. But we can discern a difference with certainty *if not blind*. To your point of derived benefit of balance, I would agree. However, I’m not interested in exploring that aspect at the moment. |
**** THE YGGY STAYS **** So I’ve had the Yggy for 9 days, and my return trial ends in 6 as of this writing. I’d first like to mention that my system objective is of course to sound great, but within the monetary confines of the best that $50K all in can achieve. Further, I wish to remain digital/solid state, yet "tweak" the sound as much as practical to introduce an analog “flavor”. At the same time it should be (sound) genre neutral, despite my primarily listening to rock. In a sense, I’d like it to sound the best that digital can sound, and I am of the opinion that digital can sound superior to analog. I am also not interested in multi-channel, however, my two channels should also sound good when and if called upon to reproduce home heater. I also believe that a system synergy can exist, and the combined effect of all components and accessories play a role. I attempt and desire to hear a more “technically correct” sound as opposed to merely a “sound preference”. For Grateful Dead heads such as myself, the Yggy really *isn’t* necessary. In fact, for any casual listening, I think one can do without the Yggdrasil. If one desires every note to be as faithful as possible, the Yggy can add value relative to my other components. I’ve run a plethora of music at it in order to sample, however, the overwhelming majority is 16/44 and not high rez. That said, I have discovered source material that accentuates all of my finding and unequivocally proves the Yggy, at a minimum, is “different” than my CD, Blue Ray Universal and Cable Box players. Namely, Elegant Gypsy by American jazz fusion guitarist Al Di Meola. Any 20 second passage on any track can be used to reveal differences between the Yggy and any other of my sources when played direct to amp. In fact, one of my conclusions is that the Yggy is “best” when used for Jazz recordings. Further, the Yggy’s usefulness increases as the “density” of the instruments increase and the overall quality of the recording is increased. In other words, it doesn’t add benefit unless the source itself is very good to begin with. Yggy balanced XLR connection is noticeably better than SE/RCA, but all A/B testing was performed using SE/RCA. While imaging is best at my PLP, A/B sampling was performed at various points throughout the room, all in front (standing and seated) of the equipment/speakers. Testing included blind where person A toggles input and then has person B choose a preference. Testing including blind where person B had advanced knowledge of the playback device and then person A toggles input and has person B try and recognize the playback device. Testing included hand holding remote and toggling input between two playback devices after listening to “loop” passages between 5 and 25 seconds. Blind testing has proven inconclusive to date, however, non-blind testing can be used to achieve results that can be reproduced. Easily audible given the right track, the Yggy produces richer bass, a more "evolving" mid-range and tighter treble with respect to my other gear. The treble on the Oppo and all other devices beside the Yggy is more “tinny”, “bright” and not as “under control". I’m splitting hairs and by all accounts a $2300 Yggy really isn’t "necessary" unless the type of music you listen to plays into its strength. The recording itself plays a major factor and must be more "dense", "fuller", etc. to take advantage of what the Yggy can offer. The Yggy has superior mid-bass and stays out of its own way. By this I mean, it *never sounded any worse* than another component. It’s as if the Yggy adds benefit on its own terms, when and if the source music can provide the Yggy what it needs to do its “thing”. While I’ll keep the Yggy, I do understand there isn’t as much benefit to it with Grateful Dead type music as there is other types, like jazz. Also, I’ve considered other alternatives, and I think in the grand scheme of things I should keep it. On tap for the next round of testing includes using the Yggy from a cold start-up. While the unit is designed to sound best when left on continually, I don’t like paying a recurring electrical cost. Granted, this is nickel and diming, but I’m going on principal here. Again, this is to test whatever difference leaving it on brings to the table. My sincere thanks to all of you for disseminating your knowledge, opinions and wisdom. |
@dlcockrum I appreciate your kind remarks Dave. Thank you. My desire to test the sound under cold start is born out the understanding that multibit R2R is optimized when its resistors temperature is constant. Even Schiit "highly recommends" leaving the unit on 24/7, and I may wind up doing this. I’d just like to hear (or attempt to hear) any difference with my own ears. Benchmark engineering goes even further with regard to the criticality of resistor ladder DACs by stating (I have email correspondence from Rory Rall) "Even if the resistors are precision trimmed, they drift with temperature. This drift is not just a function of the ambient temperature. The change in resistance can even be induced by the instantaneous heating caused by the audio signal." Imagine that. Temperature change caused by the signal itself effecting (negatively in this case?) the audio. I’d like to hear that to believe it :) |
All - I expect this post will be perceived as very interesting feedback. One that I am happy to report. THERE IS NO AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE FROM A COLD START. First, I compared my Oppo to ERC-3. Why, because in fairness to the Oppo, it has a digital filter setting that can be used to tweak the sound. So, giving it the benefit of the doubt, and despite the fact that I previously tested all filters and opted to stay with the default mini phase fast, I thought it worthwhile to ensure that it sounds very much like the ERC-3, and specifically with respect to the elements that are lacking in comparison to the Yggy. To reiterate, that would be a tinny top end, less "evolving" middle and not as "rich" bass. For purposes of my test, they can be considered identical. I then compared the Yggy - at immediate start up (cold after being powered down 18+ hours) - against both ERC3 and UDP205 and the same "improvements" were evident in the Yggy as they had been when warmed up for days. So, I take solace in *knowing* that as I listen via Yggy from a cold startup, theoretically the sound should improve *during the listening session*. Granted , that would not be audible nor will I set out to prove that, but I do know with certainty that even from a cold start up, the Yggy does sound better. And, if I had to state a one word reason why, "authenticity". |
Hi @devgcl Welcome to the forum. To be honest, all sources that act as transport to the Yggy sound great coming out of the Yggy. I haven't A/B'd among them to compare which is "best" coming out of the Yggy. I can tell you I primarily use the Oppo, but that is simply out of convenience. I transfer live music flac files to USB and play from the Oppo, intentionally avoiding the need to burn or acquire more CDs. I have 3500 already, so I don't need anymore. I use my cable box as "intermission music" for bio-breaks, that sort of thing. The computer when hooked in to the Yggy via USB sounds unbelievably good. So much better sounding than the USB DAC in my amp that I didn't even need to "critically listen" to compare and draw a conclusion. From the perspective of initially A/B'ing so as to conclude/determine/verify that multibit Yggy is (far) superior to either of my delta-sigma's (to which there is no doubt in my mind), at the time I did use SE (RCA) from all devices in order to make the test that much more reliable, accurate, truthful, etc. I only have one set of XLR input on my amp anyway. Should I choose to bypass the Yggy and go straight to the amp with my delta-sigma gear, the Oppo and ERC3 sound equally great on their own, and I can connect either via XLR or RCA. I have since removed all connections from my amp with the exception of the Yggy's XLR out to my amps XLR in, to reduce cross talk among other RCA input channels. Sometimes I had two devices on, or in the case of the Yggy during initial testing, had both XLR and RCA to the amp. I've since removed the Yggy's RCA connection to my amp. The Yggy is unbelievably good. I'm at the next stage of its integration into my system and am trying to determine if there is truly a "benefit" (either sound quality or unit longevity/health) to leaving it on 24/7. Do you have thoughts on that? I've been reading that some users need to power down and reboot at times to "clear" certain issues. |
@devgcl You're welcome. In a sense, all sources are removed other than the one I happen to be listening to at the time. This is because I have other devices physically powered off, albeit they are connected to the Ygyy. I don't expect that I'll set out to A/B which input source sounds better. Among other reasons, because all of my source transports are different, it wouldn't be an accurate A/B in any case. I believe Mike Moffet has stated that from the Yggdrasil's perspective where sound quality is concerned, AES/EBU is the "best". They are all great, that I can tell you. :) |
My philosophy is if there is not at least a tiny bit of sound improvement ( whatever you consider an improvement) when you first use, breaking in is not going to make things better for you. @aberyclark I agree. However, as I've reported, I now do and have been hearing a distinct difference. I don't believe it was on account of break in. Instead, I wasn't using the optimal type of music to discern a difference and I wasn't necessarily aware of what to listen for. It's night and day. Delta-sigma from my Oppo and Emotiva sound great, but the multibit from the Yggy makes then sound digital by comparison. @anzaanimalclinic The Yggy can do PCM up to 24/192 for all inputs, and 24/192 is certainly hi rez. I do not believe the Yggy "rolls" off on any end. Also, the Wyred 4 sound is using an older ESS 9018 chip and my Oppo has the latest ESS 9038. I'm no longer interested to listening to the Sabre chip as I prefer the Yggy, however, I agree that preference and not merely better or worse can guide that decision. |
All are personal decisions on what you would like to hear and where you use it. All these micro descriptions between equipment gets tiresome, don't like don't buy it.@bacobits1 I agree in principal with what you are stating. However, often is the case that one must purchase (or commit something) in order to make a decision as to whether or not you like a product or not. Further, and perhaps more importantly, the micro differences in this hobby (between equipment), although subtle and not without diminishing returns at the higher levels, are sought after nevertheless. |
or maybe the Oppo is really, really good Hi @randy-11 Not sure/clear if your post/question is directed at me specifically, but in any case, I’m reasonably certain you already know - via first hand experience or second hand reading of scores of threads/posts - that the Oppo, and specifically the UDP-205, is *definitely* - not maybe - really, really good. :) |
I think they both sound digital but in different ways and I like them both. @ anzaanimalclinic And which DAC have you personally heard or have you no familiarity with what-so-ever that you beleive sounds analog? Makes me wonder how many who said they couldn’t hear a difference didn’t get good advice on investing in a good quality digital front end. One of the reasons I seldom frequent Agon is because its so far behind the digital frontier. Names like Lumin, Aurender, Sonore and SoTM should be familiar to you if you are in the US and are current on high quality digital sources. @davide256 And what is your point? If you read the thread in its entirety you can discover that *initially* I couldn’t hear a difference, but subsequently was able to easily discern the quality improvement. And, this is "normal" given that (a) what I had/have prior to Yggy is very good to begin with and digital differences are not necessarily easily discerned, (b) wasn’t exactly sure precisely what to listen for in order to detect a difference and (c) the Yggy was brand new, not broken in, and at the same time I was under ill advised and self-imposed "pressure to audition" the unit within a narrow 15 day time frame. In my particular case, I had terrific advise which included my own do diligence, irrespective of any third-party advice. Of the brands you mention, only SOTM I haven’t heard or read about. The others, Lumin, Aurender, Sonore, *were* on my radar at the time I was in the market for a DAC. In my opinion, Lumin is WAY too expensive for what it is. And, even their flagship S1 uses Sabre ESS DACs which I’m more than well aware of, as I already have the latest, most advanced chip in my Oppo UDP-205. Please spare me the implementation rigmarole. Sonore I’m just not interested in and frankly don’t even care to mention why. The Aurender A10 may have been fine, but the Yggdrasil at half its price I imagine is a *MUCH BETTER VALUE* (yes I know the Aurender is also a server, but I have no need for that). |
....So net of all this is if you kept the Yggdrassil, hopefully you concluded a made to purpose music server or streamer was lacking to get you the fullest enjoyment of your purchase. Else I suspect the Oppo ended up being your solution of preference. Yes, I kept the Yggdrasil. And, I am using the Oppo UDP-205 as the transport solution of preference. |
