Paradigm Personas: A First Listen


I thought starting a new thread would be more appropriate since it would allow for a more focused discussion.

I have Paradigm S8v2s and have owned them, since new, for 8 years.  I have lived with them happily and when I bought them I knew they were going to be a long term purchase.  Cables, sources etc may come and go but big speakers are harder to find, harder to move and sell (I think).  I found a local dealer (the only one in BC so far) that has the entire Persona line; except the 7F.  They had the 9H, 5F, 3F and Monitor.  I got to hear all of them.  The 9H was in a dedicated room set up for home theatre.  The others were in a 2 channel only system.  Preamp/source was a Cambridge Audio preamp with a media player built in, Wadia Class D amps.  System was nice, sounded good and not the "highest end" you would expect, but more real world.  I took along a CD of Parijat: Prayer to Love (excellent CD BTW.  Highly recommended and wonderfully recorded).  I am very familiar with the CD.  My system has its own room, Luxman Class A amps, Luxman preamp, Bryston DAC, Nordost and Wirewizard Cables.  I think my system has an edge on electronics, but I will leave that out as I think that is splitting hairs.

First speaker I heard was the 5F.  The first thing that is immediate is the midrange and treble purity, clarity, integration, smoothness and extension.  I definitely say there is no discontinuity between the mid/tweeter.  Having a Beryllium tweeter myself I know what to expect, and the 5F did not disappoint.  The sound was relaxed, clear, focused with excellent detail.  No harshness, grain, etch or sibilance at all.  Imaging was also excellent; focused, wide and deep with good height.  Note that the 5F, 3F were right beside each other and the Monitors on stands right beside the 3's.  They were in an open room not a dedicated room, so I could only suspect the speakers would sound better as the environment would get better.  In short, the tweeter/mid was superb.  The best I have heard.  I would give the edge to the Persona's over my S8's in this regard, but given the mid and tweeter are both Beryllium they are going to have identical resonances on the fact the material is the same; it will be homogenous.  The S8 is no slouch, so the differences are small, but I give the Persona the edge here.  And I like my S8's.  I have not felt wanting.

The description for the mid/tweeter is identical for each model; there was no difference, perhaps a slight difference for the Monitor but its limited lower end might of SEEMED things to be more clear/detailed.  Hard to say.  Bottom end on the 9H was robust, to be polite, but to be expected too.....4 8 inch cones internally powered...I think a subwoofer here would be redundant in all but the largest rooms to be sure.  But the snap, punch and detail were excellent.  Moving to the 5 and 3, the bottom end was not as prodigious but still extended and tuneful.  Detail was excellent but to be expected the 5 was more pronounced than the 3.  I think both (and the Monitor for sure) would benefit from a sub, but I leave that to the reader's personal taste.  There was no evidence of port noise or discontinuity of any type.  Unfortunately, I have yet to find out (if you would like to bi amp) WHERE the biamp crossover is.  I found out the hard way on my S8 it is between the tweeter/mid, not the mid/bass as you would expect.  This would allow for a Class A or tube amp on the all important mid/tweeter and a robust amp for the bottom end.  I would like Paradigm to be clear on this point as finding out the hard way for me was costly.  I let a good Bryston amp go for no reason other than the fact it was not able to work in my system as planned.  

I suppose the real question is this:  are they worth it?  Well, I thought about my own system on the drive home, and since my system's weak point is NOT the speakers, I would, for me, not buy or let my S8 go unless someone gave me a good offer.  The logistics of selling speakers that are 4 feet tall, almost 2 feet deep and 100lbs is not a small feat, and shipping (unless local pickup) will be expensive.  I bought the S8 knowing it was going to be with me for a long time, and in fact I would rather keep them since they are so good (to me).   But I would buy the Personas for sure.  The high end purity and midrange clarity, coherence and detail are so good I was floored by how good it was.  Bottom end weight and volume is a personal preference, and adding subs obviates the comparison there, as either the 5 or 3 would be a killer system with subs.  I had extended time with the 5 and 3 and the jump in price between the two makes sense if the sub is out of the equation.  I think the added bottom end on the 5 could easily be made up with the 3 and a good sub, think JL Audio f112, e110 or e112.  An outboard crossover as part of the deal would be stating the obvious (in fact the JL Audio CR 1 crossover is what I am eyeing next.  With this, should some time down the road come I decide to jump up to the Personas finances permitting, it would greatly affect what Persona I get).  But by then I might have a different room so whom knows, but so long as the flexibility is there you have options.  I was hoping to see the 7F but the 9H is almost identical in  size.  Considering the competition they are up against I think they hold very well.  Making a matching Beryllium tweeter and mid is no small feat, and costly to boot.  Moreover, Paradigm's size and economy of scale is such that you get more than you pay for, this has been a Paradigm hallmark.  A smaller company could bring out a matched Beryllium set, perhaps, but at what cost?  I can see why the Persona line costs more, but after seeing them and listening to them, I don't feel at all that they are overpriced or outrageous.  Obviously the sound is what counts, but there is more to it than that.  I honestly think you get what you pay for; the real trick is finding the goods out there that go a step further and really offer the "diamond in the rough".  For me personally, the cost and logistics of selling my current speakers is not something I can do right now.  But if I could, I would have no issue owning a Performa.  The 7F is what I have sought my sights on, but the 5F is no slouch.  As a smaller speaker, there is little to fault the 3F and add in a sub (or two)....watch out.  Even without subs, the 5 and the 3 are more than pleasant, and in a enclosed room where there is room reinforcement......it would be interesting to know.

Pictures do not do the speakers justice.  They are gorgeous.  Fit and finish is superb, certainly better than my S8. The lenses are really trick.  I don't think there should be any trouble with the WAF but their styling is a bit modern, some might not like it.  The room presence is not nearly as strong as you would think; the S8 being so deep and narrow hides in the room well.  The Personas do as well, but are so gorgeous you don't want to hide them.  You would think the 9H to be imposing, but that is not the case, especially if you are use to bigger speakers anyway.

I am very impressed and happy that the "step up" Paradigm has made has been done well, with thought, focus and obvious results.  As to relative to what is out there, especially to what I have heard, they compete favourable with much more expensive speakers, and I have heard Focals (which is another brand I like because, surprise, they have a Beryllium tweeter).  I just think the matching tweeter/mid, especially at the price, is hard to beat.  And I am sure that the better the gear upstream would only help the sound.  The 5Fs or 3Fs in my system with the gear I have would be very interesting.

Who knows what the year brings.  I give the Personas the highest recommendation, and this is from someone whom has owned a good pair for years without complaint.  If anyone is thinking of trying out a pair I urge you to do so if possible before making any decisions.  Paradigm, with the Personas, has truly evolved into a high end brand, and deserves consideration as such.  

 
128x128blackfly

Showing 22 responses by okeeteekid

bangdown,

I have not heard the persona’s yet, my comparison was in home with the B tweeter in the S2 v3’s compared To the infinity Renaissance 90’s High energy emit planar tweeter, the S2 v3’s had several hundred hours on them.

I’d like audition the persona’s to see how they stack up to my Infinity epsilons.


I noticed that about the B tweeters too.

I had a pair of Paradigm Signature S2 v3’s a few years ago and A and B’d them up against my Infinity Renaissance 90’s that were made in 95, the Rens have emit planar tweeters.

The B tweeters were noticeable rolled off and dull sounding compared to the Ren 90’s tweeter.

The Ren 90’s tweeter’s had way more detail and a way bigger 3d sound stage than the B tweeter’s, I could hear stuff in some recordings that to me sounded like people moving stuff around making noises in the background that I could not even hear with the B tweeters, one could say... who would want to hear that kind of stuff in a recording but guess what... if those sounds are in a recording I want to hear it, you have to think to yourself... what else are the B’s missing.

After my experience with B tweeters, I’m not a fan of them, I guess they’re just not my cup of tea, that said I sold the S2 v3’s.


I just auditioned a pair of focals, was not impressed, i ’m use to hearing speakers put on the show like a truly live performance.
Audiotroy,
Beryllium is light but the voice coil that it is attached to is still pretty heavy as compared to a much much lighter in weight true ribbon tweeter like a Raal,
I wouldn’t be surprised if the total weight of a Raal tweeter was less than 1/4th the weight of the voice coil alone on a Beryllium tweeter.
The moving mass of a Raal tweeter is only 0.0075 grams, The Beryllium tweeter moving mass is probably closer to .30 grams, much heavier.
The paradigms only use the same materials down to the mid range driver, the woofer is a different material so according to you goodbye coherence? if this was a cost no object speaker the woofer would be Beryllium too.

I don’t believe in all drivers have to be of the same material for a speaker to sound good as I have heard many speakers with the drivers made of the same materials sound really bad.

I’m not a fan of the B tweeter and here’s why, I did an A and B test with paradigms S2 v3’s B tweeters compared to infinity’s High energy emit in the infinity Renaissance 90, the B tweeter was rolled off and had nowhere near the detail of the infinity tweeter.

like I said in my above post... with the Infinity I could clearly hear when listening to classical music.. what sounded like to me a chair squeaking in the background, with the B tweeters you could not hear it.

I listened to many recordings while I compared the two tweeters and I was amazed at how much more the infinity tweeters retrieved what was in the recordings, with the B tweeter you would never know those sounds existed in the recordings.

Some people might say... who would want to hear a chair squeak or other annoying sounds in a recording but guess what... if those sounds are there I want to hear them, speakers are supposed to pick up everything in a recording, if they don’t you have to ask yourself, WHAT OTHER SOUNDS ARE THEY NOT REVEALING TO THE LISTENER.
My mistake, the Raal tweeter is not 1/4th the weight of a Beryllium tweeter.

                                            It’s about 40 x LIGHTER!


The average moving mass (weight of the diaphragm assembly with coil and former) of a Beryllium dome is .30 grams.

The moving mass of the Raal 70-10 tweeter is only .0075 grams.

Even though Beryllium is used to cut the weight of the B tweeters dome... the tweeter is still heavy/slow because of the inherited weight of it’s coil and former, it may be lighter than other metal domes but it’s nowhere near as light as a true ribbon tweeter like the Raal.

I’ve listened to many $$ dome tweeters and to me... they are all just too slow, once you listened to a really good ribbon tweeter there’s no turning back, you will hear all what you’ve been missing.


Raal tweeter: 40 x LIGHTER than B tweeter = more accurate to the input signal.
Not with a good tweeter like the Raal or any other good push pull design tweeter, I like the sound of some of the older High energy infinity tweeters, the many benefits of a good ribbon tweeter to me outway the slight lack of dynamics if any, go and listen to a pair of speakers with a Raal tweeter or any other high end speakers with a quality ribbon tweeter in them to see what I’m talking about, lifelike imaging with a spacious 3d sound stage.
To me the personas are not a cost no object speaker, if you think they are then you’re kidding yourself.

This is what a cost no object speaker looked like in the late eighties, Infinity IRS V, check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPazywXrqJo

http://www.infinity-classics.de/models/IRS-series+Beta+Gamma-Delta-Sigma-Epsilon-1988-95-98/IRS/IRS1...

Introduced: IRS V: 1988
Dimensions: Bass Tower: 90 x 20.3/4 x 28.3/4 in
Dimensions: Mid/High Tower: 90 x 47 x 17 in
Wight: Bass Tower: 1,500 lbs (system)
Bass: 6 x 12 inch poly graphite woofers per side
Mids: 12 x EMIM drivers per side
Highs: 36 x EMIT drivers (12 on the back) per side
Suggested for amplifiers with: 100-300 Watts per Mid/High channel (bass towers have their own 2000 Watts amplifier)
Frequency range: 15 Hz - 45 kHz +- 2db
Crossover frequencies: 70 Hz (variable), 4500 Hz
Special: Servo control unit for bass drivers
Suggested price (system): IRS V: original $ 60,000


If you are comparing the genesis series 2 speaker in the below link, to the sound of the personas then that is an unfair test and you definitely don’t know what you are talking about as The Infinity IRS V sounds nothing like that little genesis speaker.

The Infinity IRS V will blow away both the persona and the genesis 2, the disparity would be embarrassing.

Genesis 2   http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/g2series_gallery.html 

Infinity IRS V   http://www.infinity-classics.de/models/IRS-series+Beta+Gamma-Delta-Sigma-Epsilon-1988-95-98/IRS/IRS1...
Go and listen to the Infinity IRS V, you can hear them at this guys place and then you will see why the disparity would be embarrassing. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPazywXrqJo
Audiotroy,
The Infinity IRS V compares with the Genesis Prime a $300,000 plus speaker, the infinity tweeters are better as they are push pull, the Genesis tweeters are not, the Genesis tweeters are like the emit r's infinity  used in their lower priced speakers, infinitys mids were also push pull don't know if the genesis mids are or not.
audiotroy

I will have to give the personas an audition, I hope the B tweeter in them doesn’t sound like the ones in the S2-v3, I’m use to the speed of ribbon drivers and never heard a dome that didn’t sound slow to me, will see.

audiotroy

Really? In my A and B test, speakers side by side, my infinity renaissance 90’s that have only two emit tweeters in them had waaay better treble clarity than the paradigms S2 v3’s, yet 72 emit tweeters in the infinity IRS V don’t have better clarity Lol
I just went on youtube and found some audio doctor videos, in this video from 2011 Dave was bragging about their finest speaker they had in their reference room, CES 2011 Best of Show winner—the $66k Scaena 3.2 ribbon/cone line-array loudspeaker, Dave says it is the most remarkable, lifelike 3 dimensional musical experiences imaginable, it sounds real, it’s amazing.

                                        GUESS WHAT IT HAD RIBBON TWEETERS


Go to 1.39 in the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRHrUJepfAo
Not what it says here, 
http://www.paradigm.com/products-archived/collection=signature/model=signature-s2/page=overview
Those are the ones I tested against

Either you have to get your facts straight or paradigm lied out of their a$$ and if they did nobody would ever buy one of their products again.
Yet I keep telling you I did an A and B test side by side, paradigm S2-v3, B tweeters, Against the Infinity renaissance 90, High Energy emit tweeters, same tweeters found in the IRS epsilon.

The High Energy emit tweeters have waaaay more detail, speed, accuracy and clarity with a deeper/wider 3d sound stage, honestly no comparison but my test is false and doesn’t matter, you keep saying the B tweeters are better but you don’t have a pair of speakers with the High Energy emit to compare the B tweeter to, so your test/assumption that the B tweeter is better is inconclusive.

You keep saying there is no coherence when you have a planar ribbon tweeter because speaker designers don’t make the mid range drivers out of the same material as the tweeter, WRONG, just click on the link below to se my pair of Infinity IRS epsilons pictured in center, what do you see? drivers made out of the same material as the tweeter down to 100 htz, That’s how you do it, COHERENCE.

https://flic.kr/p/RatgAp
Maybe the pair of persona B monitors the gentleman auditioned had Beryllium alloy tweeters in them Lol
I will give the personas a listen, I have heard many speakers that sound really nice but I like the sound of Ribbons best.
Just because a company has lots of money to spend doesn't mean their designers will know how to make a good speaker.

Dave_b
I was waiting for someone to compare a different brand speaker in the same room using the same electronics that the personas were driven with, that’s the ultimate test, A against B

Wow I can’t believe they are that bad.

Next you will see posts saying something was wrong, there’s no way B&W803D3’s sound better than the personas, what electronics were they using, the electronics made one speaker sound better than the other, they were set up wrong, everybody hears things differently or we’re competitors trashing the ad Blah Blah Blah.

At least someone was smart enough to compare them side by side using the same electronics.




Contuzzi

So If you don’t say something nice about a product it’s because you must be in the industry or must be a competitor or you’re pathetic lol

Dave_b did a fair test and shared his thoughts here about his 2nd audition of the personas but because his audition wasn’t to your liking you make fun of him, not everyone is going to like the sound of the personas, members go on this forum to share their experiences with different products, good or bad, take it all with a grain of salt.

By the way.....I’m not in the industry or a competitor, if I was why would I own vintage infinity speakers.