Pheonix Engineering Road Runner


This product was very popular when produced by Phoenix Engineering before they went out of business and seems to be even more popular after. My question is why hasn't some other manufacturer made something similar? The demand seems to be there.
sgunther

Showing 4 responses by has2be

it originally retailed for $234 (it was the Falcon and Eagle that sold for more)


I still have the receipt in the packaging for the Roadrunner I bought near when they first offered. $ 234 is what I paid Bill for it with a couple extra magnets and even an extra sensor so I could have it ready for both tables with simply plugging the sensor cable from one to the other. So much better than strobe discs or blinking lights on the wall. After a belt swap, bearing clean and re oil, or just to check RPM with stylus in the groove for accurate quick reading, its perfect.

I get how some OCD fusspots would drive themselves mad as the RPM’s shift a few thousands off of 33.333 while the stylus navigates the record . But IMO , those people would be best to keep digital. If one cannot accept that analog playback using a turntable is a series of compromises, and balancing the absolutes with the moving exemptions to the rules that experience and opinion will bring, including which drive method is being used, it just becomes a not so merry go round of annoyance and idiotic bias.

All drive methods have their short comings and advantages. Which floats your boat isn’t a matter of which one is better or not. It is just a matter of which one sounds more appealing to the owners ability, understandings and personal bias. I have heard/owned drives of all methods that I felt excelled remarkably well in "their" presentations of sound playback. I have owned and enjoyed them all over the last 45 plus years as they each have a specific sound, tempo and drive to the music. Choice is a good thing, not an argumentative foil to endure ad nauseum. I gravitated towards mostly belt drives the last 15 or so years as , for me personally , it sounds more natural to me . I think its we humans who hear much different than we acknowledge and instead make it a right and wrong thing. I think some of us are very susceptible to hearing interruption in soundwaves that "hunting" even on better spec’d DD’s have, an uneasiness to some. The belt has a much more gradual "smoothing" that feels more natural to some.

The DD user obviously , many key in on minor belt drifts as timing errors. But realistically, very few can hear it at all as even modest belt drives are accurate enough that a musician maybe could pic up a minute error but the average audiophile, no , not at all. Idler drive users with a good set up simply couldn’t live without the drive to the sound they bring . The only thing wrong is that many " music lovers " make out that one drive is better than the other, empirically. They are not , they are options that offer different presentations and interpretations of the same recording, and they all have strengths and weaknesses and they all are made in different levels of quality, and addressing or focusing on different obstacles from designer to designer.
The caveat is , choose "your own" medicine, or pick "your own" poison. Even though I mostly lean towards a good belt drive now, I think its really nice to see the higher end DD’s now currently being made, something I never thought would happen again. They are quite outstanding and likely will contribute to the other drive options still moving forward as well. For an all analog guy...….that’s a really good thing, not something to fuss  about or knock them.
@goofyfoot

I had an SME 3009 11 improved with the removable head shell on the Thorens TD145 I had back in the seventies. That was the only arm I used on it while I owned it and it played well with the 145. If your hearing wow and flutter in the music , address that first and foremost. I never had any speed issues with mine so I know that when all components and circuitry is at spec they perform well within reasonable acceptance.
There are those that consider your arm underrated , but that is a personal choice of biased requirements and reasonable mating of neither the table or the arm underused or overvalued in playback. Equal to each other...

@fsonicsmith
Someone above mentioned picking your shortcoming as all drives have them. I look at it just slightly differently; each drive method has it’s strengths. Pick which strength you most want rather than pick which shortcoming you wish to avoid.

Actually that is not what was said at all. It was never alluded to as picking the short comings. It was highlighting the FACT , they all have short comings and different presentations to the same recordings. Quote...

Has2be quote....
" The only thing wrong is that many " music lovers " make out that one drive is better than the other, empirically. They are not , they are options that offer different presentations and interpretations of the same recording, and they all have strengths and weaknesses and they all are made in different levels of quality, and addressing or focusing on different obstacles from designer to designer.
The caveat is , CHOOSE "YOUR OWN" MEDICINE, or pick "your own" poison."


The last sentence, I capped for the point made. That is picking your preference of sound choice (medicine) , not trying to make something it isn’t and never will be like many "poison" themselves to believe they can. You brought up idler drives which is a perfect example. I spent a lot of time with Garrod 301’s and no other drive method can replicate the sonic drive they and other sorted idlers have. Turntables don’t sound better or worse because of the drive method applied. They sound better or worse because they are poorly designed or built regardless of drive, or are well built and designed, but poorly set up and operated. The later is painful to see and hear while the owner blames the product or drive method.
@fsonicsmith To put it diplomatically, you are naive. As with all other components in the chain, no amount of engineering can do away with the flaws inherent in recording and playing back vinyl. Perhaps you suffer from Mike Fremeritis. It’s a condition where someone who used to embrace the limitations of vinyl suddenly aspires to and strives to challenge the theoretical limits of digital reproduction. In other words, a simple form of deluded madness. This syndrome is most often seen in 65-70 year old men who can not accept the simple notion that their time is nearing an end

Your comprehension sucks.....
I never said anything can do away with the flaws at all. Quite the opposite actually. I made a point of saying they all have flaws and strengths. Its the users ability to maximize the limits it can achieve from a medium rife with challenges that include the equipment in the chain and the users experience, which includes making the right choice for what your looking for.. I have never so much as read a single thing Fremer writes about anything. I embrace the medium because I have a very large vinyl collection from over a decade of working part time in a record store to pay for the records. And another couple decades buying them when they were being given away. Some is music you simply can’t find on other formats. You learn things over the years to avoid and to look for and in doing that makes it as well as it can be. I never suggested it was the end all. My reel to reel player most times exceeds the turntables performance IMHO.
You have a quick shiitty attitude towards fellow members and even go as far as inventing context that didn’t or doesn’t exist. Try reading and grasping the context of ALL the words , not the straws that line your argumentative nature, you think.... I bet your a real quiet man without a keyboard where facial expression and scale to size would reduce your insincerity and bravado, drastically.....

@goofyfoot 

I get what your saying about just the roadrunner that some may feel its unnecessary to "them" personally. It all depends how one utilizes it . I don't and cant see running it when the table is playing and I'm listening to music . As I said earlier , details people gloss over these days,.... when changing a belt, cleaning and re-lubing the bearing yearly, moving and re-setting the table, swapping cartridges/arms etc and the ability to adjust speed to where needed by actual digits while the needle is in the groove after such things is prudent and extremely nice compared to staring at a cheap strobe to see approx. speed vs. actual speed.Its a tool if used as such , its a toy if that's all your able to see it as I guess.
As far as the falcon goes , its also a tool , for the incoming power to your AC motor. The falcon and eagle allow your AC motor to run a near perfect speed regardless of the fluctuation in frequency coming in by generating a stable frequency and when used with the Roadrunner a looped feedback making very stable and adjustable speed. 
If you feel this won't make a big difference because your table is satisfactory to you in speed and works for you, then , why spend the money is a non argument with me. Belts these days don't have the same results from one to the next when new or as they break in either and can run slow/fast by as much as a full rpm from one belt to the next. Seeing how much speed is picked up after lubricants heat up, or belts adjust to friction from playing is useful information to have before adjusting something cold and knowing when to leave it alone.
I unplug the power to mine after I use it to check speed after the need to check it is prudent to do so. The rest of the time it sits unlit.
The comment of the company going under as far as reasons are just false speculation. He simply retired, period and has been a willing and helping and appreciated source to many DIY guys as well to be fair to him, that's something few go out of their way to offer.
I agree , how accurate the speed is to you or the next guy is totally what that user feels is necessary to his needs or goals or situation. The next guy may require not just tighter control but have a table that would be more in need of it than the next guy. One of the knocks for belt drives has always been speed drift (wow/flutter). A guy comes up with a device to make AC motors run almost perfectly to speed with in thousands of the target RPM and he gets negative and false opinions and statements , usually from people who actually don't know or understand how it actual works with the associated digital frequency lens the eagle/falcon supplied as a loop, as demonstrated in this thread. 
Its not a necessity to have the roadrunner at all. Its just a tool , like a strobe is, the ones you don't see anymore that all tables seemed to have as a reference decades ago. One could always just download a strobe and print it , or by a ready made one for 100 bucks then need the light running at 60 hz to see it properly. I thought for 234 dollars having a strobe that after a belt  change , a yearly bearing clean and lube , or after a cartridge / arm swap reads exactly the speed and if a speed adjustment is needed its done, if not then great. Its a better tool than a strobe , period. If I had an AC motor using the Falcon and Roadrunner as a loop I would place them  pointing upward so I wouldn't see them from the seated position . My table has its own Power supply with a tachometer on the motor as a loop that maintains a very good stable speed . The roadrunner allows me to see exact numerical speed as I adjust the pots without the need for platter strobes, the loop just maintains where its set . They are just a better way to do it, period. I also repair turntables , so after swapping a motor out, or refurbing circuits with new caps etc and a run in time, they are great to set the speed accurately and see drift and the range of fluctuation.
I have a friend who uses his to accurately dial in the speed that some albums were cut at and matching playback speed to optimize his enjoyment. ( has an amazing collection and knowledge of music and recording)  Like I said it is just a tool , some have practical use for it, others, yes, unnecessary  to them, but when looped with the falcon or eagle, accurate constant frequency in a feedback loop is quite frankly, the optimal goal in general terms . Same as DC motors in better tables have better power supplies for voltage and control of the speed the platter spins. When I first saw the Falcon Roadrunner option and for the price compared to other options, for any table running an AC motor in the modest price range , I felt, IMHO it was a inexpensive option to upgrade a modest price table that would cost considerably more if bought as part of the "better"spec'd much higher priced models. Also some manufactures charge exorbitant prices to replace motors and some parts simply unavailable that require a working donor at a premium. AC motors are inexpensive and a Falcon / Roadrunner option to a guy in that situation allows him to get his rig running easily and accurately with little experience and a lower cost. These reasons don't make it, or imply its a must or necessary for all, obviously. Lots of users happy with them would back them up, and the still demand for a product no longer in production and now its reincarnation (sota) would seem to give it a strong reason to stand on its merits versus others opinions of it's validity. Its just more choice and options to choose from , or not. That's something to be grateful for IMO , that ways to keep new and older tables running and in many cases running more accurate. Whats not to like, one either needs it or one doesn't. If you don't , that certainly can't be stretched into the other guy can't be as smart, for having an actual use for it that some don't have or can't see because they don't understand what and how it works or a situation that it actually benefits. Look at the cost of a DC motor replacement from origin live when all is said and done for the better motor and power supply if you wanted to repair a table in need of it. Two plus thousand dollars for something that runs about + - .2 % off speed. The eagle/ roadrunner with a new AC motor , for less would run exact speed for less cost. Its a good option to have. We all can't have the same reason for need , but ones reason for not needing something doesn't make that the standard for everyone else which is kind of the point for greater options and choice. That's how I personally see it , not a slight to anyone else's view or opinion , its a matter of use and reason and understanding that validates necessity from one individual to the next. Nothing more, or less...........