Larryrosen
I ordered a custom Grange in early December and it appears I'm still 4-6 weeks if not more. I wouldn't have expected Mick's commitment to a firm date anyway knowing that he wears almost every hat in the company. I accepted that when I sent him my down payment. He always returns emails although it may be a day or two until you hear back. As a former president once said "I feel your pain". :>) |
Thanks will send one off today. |
Larryrosen, I received an email reply from Mick at 1:23 AM Pacific... So I know he's there.
When ordering a Supratek, it's always best to iron out the details associated with your particular needs prior sealing the deal. When requesting a price quote on a non standard unit, itemize ALL special requirements in one email. This provides the necessary documentation Mick needs to refresh his memory once he starts building your preamp. |
Jpms - thanks for the info on the Cab, I didn't know what. From Slowhands post, it seems that the Cortese now has two regulators. That might be a good thing. Wonder if I can get my Cortese upgraded... |
Hi Fiddler - Modifying a Supratek?? I am sure the DACT will bring a big improvement over the stock potentiometer. I'm not sure why I haven't done this yet.
The "streamlining" mods I am thinking about include:
> Bypassing the MUTE switch. - To my knowledge, all signals run through this switch. This will be one less item in the signal path which should improve transparency.
> Removing the extra wire from unused inputs - since the wire used inside a Supratek is unsheilded it tends to pick up radio frequency & adds to crosstalk problems which could degrade transparency.
> Removing the balanced output and associated switch - again I think all signals run through this switch. I don't use balanced output and the preamp makes a nasty buzz sound when the balanced output or in-between setting is selected - something wrong is going on there.
> Replacing selector knob with a DACT selector - I expect the stock selector knob is not as transparent as we'd like.
> Taking a closer look at the HT Bypass and improving on the design a little - again, all signals run through this switch and it could degrade transparency.
> Rewiring the signal path with different wire (Kondo or Siltech) |
Anyone out there recieve their package recently? I ordered a Cabernet last week, but cannot get Mick to commit to a time frame. How long as he been taking to deliver? Also, when can I expect to hear from him concerning any custom mods I would request? Just very curious and anxious for any info I can get. I am up to date on this thread and it is the reason I bought a Cabernet. Thanks everyone for making this feel like a special club! |
Mick told me that the newest Cortese also has two pair of regulators, one for the line and one for the phono stage. He is also direct coupling the tube phono stage eliminating all coupling capacitors for a much more 3D image. |
Jazzdude, thanks
It does keep getting better and better as Amandarae mentioned. I used to run my Wadia straight into my W5 with outstanding results. I was thinking could not get much better than this....Wrong. Just opened up a whole new dimension to sound. Can't wait to start tweaking now.
Good listening. |
Bwhite, the Cabernet only uses two regulators because it´s only a line pre. The Grange uses two pair of regulators one for the line and the other pair for phono wich is housed in a seperate unit and this way it does benefit from having it's own regulation. There are two preamps in effect in the Grange- the phono and linestage.
The Cabernet just has a linestage so it can only have two regulator tubes- one for each channel.
Mick told me that putting a Cabernet/Grange power supply on a Cortese wouldn't work because they have completely different requirements. |
Thf - I have both Sauvignon and Cabernet. The Sauvignon is very good, nothing wrong with it at all. The Cabernet just conveys the essence of the music so much better than the Sauvignon. Speed, neuance, tone, and dynamic contrasts are all better in the Cabernet. The only downside of the Cabernet might be that you hear a tad more tube noise, but it is still very quiet. It has the same Supratek 'house' sound, detailed and transparent but not sacrificing musicality. On my cabernet tonal balance is notably fuller than the Sauvignon but not fat.
As bwhite said the Chardonnay sounds immature and the Sauvignon sounds disiplined. Comparitively speaking the Sauvignon sounds like a recording and the Cabernet sounds alive and vibrant.
Confirm my assisment with Mick becuase he changes his design and tube compliment evolve slightly as time goes on. My Sauvignon is one of the earlier models and my Cabernet uses the WE101D instead of the TJ101D or TJPX4.
Before the cabernet I used to haunt audio websites and high-end boutiques like I was a restless ghost because I was always looking for something better. Not anymore, I am enjoying the music. |
Jazzdude. Now that makes more sense. I thought that he must be using both socket types on the same chassis with a switch. |
Ecclectique - I think Mick uses the TJ-PX4 in the latest iteration of the cabernet. It uses UX-4 sockets instead of B4 sockets that the 'real' PX4 uses. That is a very important consideration for anyone wanting to purchase the Cabernet and tube roll the NOS PX4's in it, cause it isn't going to happen. The sockets are incompatible. |
Arkio - Ditto on mating Supratek preamps with the Sim Audio Moon W5. It is an excellent match with both my Sauvignon and Cabernet. I wish you many enjoyable hours of listening. |
Brian,
You will be shocked after you get about 50-75 hours on the DACT. The transparency will take a huge leap. But with that comes the downside...exposing weaknesses elsewhere if you have any.
And I agree. After trying GEC KT66's about a month (I think) after receiving my Chardonnay, I made the leap immediately to WE 350B's. No comparison. I know they are expensive, but if you can't run with the big dogs, ya may as well stay on the porch. |
Pkaram, the best phono stage I've listened to was my Aesthetix IO Signature DIRECT to an amp... WITHOUT ANY VOLUME CONTRL IN BETWEEN. It was insane! I set the jumpers to 60db gain and let her rip!
The purity of the sound was remarkable but the experience left me very confused.
I compared an Aesthetix direct vs. Aesthetix through a Supratek Chardonnay & it was amazing to hear how much the Supratek tarnished the sound. Sorry to say.
So I tried a passive Placette and it was even worse...it sounded like garbage to be honest. Compressed, ZERO dynamics, flat, dull and lifeless.
The Supratek was definitely better than the Placette for whatever reason.
I ended up selling the Aesthetix because I couldn't find a volume control which satisfied me. Even the Aesthetix built in volume control compressed dynamics to some extent.
That's when I purchased a Cortese and I've been using it ever since. One day I'm going to take the Cortese to an engineer and have the DACT volume control as well as a few other "streamlining" mods completed. Hopefully that will kick up the purity of the Cortese.
But.. to this day, nothing compares to the Aesthetix direct. What an experience! |
Hi Larry, I thought about trying the UNIverse and discussed with SORAsound but...I was scared it was going to be too bright. Especially after hearing a Koetsu Onyx Platinum. My table is a bit forward sounding in the upper mids & this is apparently why the Benz is the cartridge of choice for the table.
Heck.. I may still try the UNIverse |
.
Brian,
.
It is great to hear you sound so happy with your system. I agree that the 350B is the end of the path and as good as it gets.
.
When you are in the mood and in a position, try to get a listen to a ZYX UNIverse. It is just stunning beyond explanation. The Ebony is a terrific cartridge, but the UNIverse is just Manna from Heaven.
.
Rgds,
Larry
. |
Bwhite, I see you are heavily into vinyl. Could you comment on how the Cortese phono stage might compare with other elite stages? Also, could you share any experiences between the Cortese and Chenin in particular the phono stages? As you can tell .. I am sitting on the fence at this point. |
A few revelations happened today... I got a new cartridge to replace my Shelter 901. I settled on the Benz LP Ebony because Judith Spotheim, the maker of my turntable & arm, OEM's the cartridge and highly recommends it as a great match - plus George Cardas and Jeff Joseph also use a Benz(ish) cartridge on their La Luce tables. Anyhow, the Benz requires a >500 input impedance and to my knowledge, the Supratek's come with a 10, 100, 1000 and 47K input switch.
Has anyone here changed the impedance input switch on their Supratek? What's involved?
Revelation number two. With the Benz, I no longer think the KT66's are a very good tube in the regulator. The 350B's are definately better now. No question. And involving too! Very, very nice! |
Fantastic. Thank you. I think I may a couple of months to research! |
Hello Larry. Congratulations on your new Supratek. I can appreciate Mick's take on tube rolling as many users with little or no experience with vacuum tubes can mess things up very easily with the use of improper substitutes,weak, tired or bad tubes and such.All the Supratek preamps are very precision instruments and designed with the tubes employed to operate within the specific voltages, tolerances and parameters of the tubes used in his circuit. That said: The supratek preamps are rather sensitive to the quality of the tubes used in the circuit and will certainly respond to a specific tubes sonic signature to "voice" the preamp in your system. I know the thread here is an extremely long one to read back through Larry but it would be in your best interest to browse back for references as many tubes will elevate the bar to a whole higher level than the stock tubes supplied with the preamp. You may want to type in my handle or Bwhites to reference our observations.Hope this helps. |
Ecclectique - thank you very much. I'm actually looking forward to the move to Charlotte. The difference in cost of living should afford me a great listening space! |
Thanks! I am new to tube rolling and on his web site, Mick discourages it. How much improvement over the stock tubes could I expect? |
Thf & Larryrosen - Sorry, I don't have any experience with the Cabernet but would expect it to outperform the Cortese (Sauvignon) line stage particularly due to a better / more refined power supply. I've read good things about the new PX4 tube version and also heard there is a 300B option for the preamp which should sound fantastic!
One of the BIG benefits I'd expect to find in the Cabernet is the use of four regulator tubes in the power supply. I'd imagine this would give tremendous flexibility to tweaking the sound of the unit. For example, we Syrah/Chardonnay and Cortese/Sauvignon users only get two power supply regulator tubes to play with. These tubes impact the sound tremendously! Many (like I) have settled on the Western Electric 350B as the best tube but....in my view, there is something to be said for the Genalex KT66 also. The 350B is powerful and seemingly very accurate sounding but can be a bit harsh if the music calls for it. Sometimes accuracy (and associated harshness) can diminish from the overall enjoyment of listening. The Genalex Gold Lion KT66 on the other hand is a bit more rounded and seductive - something about it sucks a listener in to the music - very, very involving. In my mind, the best setup would be a combination of these tubes vs. one or the other.
I find I listen less often with the 350B's while with the KT66's, I find myself engaged for long periods of time all the while realizing that what I hear may not be exactly faithful to the original recording. Something tells me the 350B/KT66 combo in a Cabernet or Grange would be heaven sent! That alone would make the Cabernet a great choice!
Personally I am thinking of asking Mick to make me a Cabernet/Grange power supply for my Cortese.... or even a "dual mono" power supply! |
Hi Bwhite, I just ordered a Cabernet from Mick, on reputation only. Have you seen or heard one? I have not been able to get much information anywhere on the Cabernet and would love for someone to tell me I made a great choice! |
Don't know when my Cortese will be ready. I ordered it at the end of October. I don't want to bug Mick about it though. As long as I have my Syrah to listen to, I am happy.
Does anyone know if Mick still puts tape inputs on the preamps? Seems like most people have HT inputs nowdays. I have never used the tape inputs on my Syrah. |
Hey Bryon. Yeah, good to hear you again.Hoping things are well for you and your family and all the best on your move. |
Thanks, Bwhite for your comments. Do you have any experience with the Cabernet? Would you buy it? How does it compare with the cortese? |
Thanks Tom! It's good to be back! The past several months have been very hectic. Now it looks as if I'll be moving from California to Charlotte, North Carolina within the next month or two...so it's not over yet. I'll do my best keep up to speed with everyone on this thread as things progress.
When is your Cortese due to arrive? |
Good to hear from your Brian, it has been a while since I have seen you on here.
Tom |
Hi Thf,
Sonically they are very similar but the Cortese is more refined, precise and has better bass extension. The highs are more controlled and sweeter with the Cortese. The tonal balance of the mids is difficult to distinguish between the two preamps.
Overall both preamps have the same family sound but in an effort to describe the subtle differences with words I will undoubtedly create a scenario which is more exaggerated than is true. Ready for an exaggeration?? Here it goes!!The Syrah sounds more immature - like a rambunctious child compared to a more mature, strict and disciplined Cortese.
Done exaggerating.
This type of improvement is typical in high end audio when upgrading any component within the same manufacturers line.
Unfortunately the area where there is the most significant improvement between the Cortese and the Syrah is in the overall quality of the unit.
For whatever reason, the Cortese has zero microphonics, zero hum and/or buzz. The Cortese is not as sensitive to tube quality and less sensitive to where its power supply is located. The Cortese does not rattle or vibrate internally - it's heavy and solid - like it should be.
The Cortese seems like a better perfected high-end component whereas the Syrah, to some degree feels like a high-end "DIY" type of component.
Awesome results can be achieved with the Syrah but its subtle quirks can overtly effect the sonics if extra care is not taken in tube selection, positioning / location of the power supply, relation of the preamp to other components, etc.
Is it worth the extra money? I think so. |
How much better is the Cabernet compared to the Sauvignon? Or is the Chardonay good enough? If my memory is correct, Bwhite was a bit disappointed with the cortese when compared to his syrah. Is it worth the extra money?
Comments would be appreciated. |
Hi Jpms.Both the PX4 and the 300b are direcly heated triodes with a ux4 or b4 pin out. Tubes that may be possible substitutions are the px25,2a3 and the 45. All are directly heated triodes traditionally used as an output tube in single ended amplifiers. You would certainly want to consult with Mick regarding substitutions here as all of these tubes are very rare and expensive. The 45 in particular is probably the most linear valve of the bunch and probably better sounding than the others. I have heard all of them as output tubes in amplifiers and they all possess a magic that most tubes only hint at. Very Intriguing indeed. Hope you post your findings here. cheers |
When I asked in the previous post what tubes can be used in the Cabernet "besides" PX4 or 300B I wanted to say "in place" the PX4 or 300B providing they don´t use more than 1,5 A of filament current. Thanks. |
Mick can build now the Cabernet to be used with PX4 or 300B, with a switch on power supply to chooose which one you want to use.
It´s possible to use other tubes in place PX4 or 300B as long as they don't use more than 1.5A of filament current.
Anyone could let me know what other tubes could be used in the Cabernet besides the PX4 or 300B? |
Welcome Arkio!
It will just get better, and better, and better, and better.........
congrats! |
Got my Chardonnay today. Can't stop listening to my system. This thing is sweeeet... made my soundstage just grow well beyond my speakers by leaps... Never new how 3D my Sim Audio W5 was. And the clarity and imaging, incredible. Some of the descriptions I read on this thread by some folks about how good this thing was made me a bit skeptical but I thought I would take a chance. Man, am I glad I did. This is far and away one of the best upgrades to my system I have ever made. |
For anyone looking for some 6922 to try in their new pre,I have been getting consistent quality from a seller here on the Gon by the name of Dioto.I have bought a few pairs of Seimans gold pin, Dutch made Amperex bugle boys and Philips miniwatt S.Q.s. All are dead silent and very,very good in my Chinen.Best of all, Toms prices and service are hard to beat...Tubes through out the rest of my pre. R.C.A.6C4s,1958 vintage Dutch made Amperex bugel boy gz-37, Sylvania 6f6g,Sylvania metal base 6sn7w,... nice. The next huge up grade to my modest system is a Nordost Thor distribution block and two of their mid priced a.c. cords for starters ,this could very well be the best thing any one in this hobby could do for their system,I get it this week.... |
Hey Sandro. If you do order a Supratek preamp, be sure to keep the seimens 7308's your employing in the LS-5.They can be used for the phono of the supratek. They are the best of the breed in my honest opinion. |
Hi Gang,
On the subject of noise in the phono stage with 6922 tubes, Mick told me in a recent e-mail that in the 2nd and 3rd stages of the phono that this is not a problem and that much of the problems with noise in the phono stages of preamps has less to do with noisey tubes and more to do with poorly designed phono stages. I agree with Ecclectique, when he says we need not be concerned with the tube choice that Mick uses in the phono stage. He is not about to design a phono stage that is noisey due to tubes or design. His phono sections are truly world class! I feel that my Sony SCD-1 SACD player is a top notch player with the Allen Wright mods that are in it, but with the Syrah's phono section, my VPI mk4/JMW/Dynavector combo stomps all over it! Man, I can't wait to get my Cortese!!! |
Hi Gang. Yes it seems that Mick has used different tubes in his phono stages, sometimes even in the same model of preamp. He has in past,used the 6gk5 and 5842/417a combo in the syrah as well as the cortese.His web site states he is using the 6J6 in combo with the 6922/6dj8 family. After reading some of the threads here,evidently he has used the 6c45, the 6j6 or equivalents in combo with the 6922. That said: All of these tubes are electrically similiar and are considered to be in the same family electrically speaking. Although some of these tubes may not be direct subs,they would be considered electrical cousins. There is good reason why Mick has elected to employ this family of tubes. As most of you know,his phono stage has extremely high gain and can drive even the lowest output mc cartridges available today without the use of a transformer or step up device. The 417a or equivalents,the 6j6 or equivalents,the 6c4 or equivalents or the 6c45 are all tubes with very similiar electrical characteristics. All have high GM, a high mu of around 50,low rp and high current. The 6c45 for instance, is a super tube choice for duty here, with it's closest american equivalent being the WE 437. His phono stages must be considered "World Class" by anyones standards regardless of what tube he has employed. Geez... A tubed phono stage to drive a .2mv cartridge was simply unheard of no less than 10 years ago! Don't get caught up or confused with Mick's choice of tube here gang,trust me.... he KNOWS what he is doing here guys...................... Sandro.... Order the Cortese and you will surely be unloading your ARC ls5 mk2 the very next day. As a long time and former ARC preamp owner, I have been a fan of ARC preamps since the ARC sp-3a from the mid 1970's right up to the Sp-10 mk2[ which I still own today] I have owned the SP-3a, Sp-6a, SP-8a MK2, and the SP-10 mk2 and enjoyed my time with all of them immensly. Furthermore, the ls5 mk 2 is "far and away" the best sounding line stage preamp ARC ever produced! Always musical,warm and engaging... a beauty to be sure. Unfortunately... It's not in any where near the same league as any of the supratek preamps, not even close for that matter. My Syrah simply stomps on the line stage of both the SP-10 mk2 or the SP-8 mk2 [which is basically the same line stage of your LS 5 mk2]. The Cortese is even better sir! Like killing two birds with one stone and looks like a win,win situation to me. |
Amandarae, Ecclectique, Jphii thanks for your input. I e- mailed Mick on the subject of "Chenin or Syrah". Mick tells me he does not use sheoak for the Chenin because its too expensive. Evidently he used to use it for the Syrah though and had sheoak Syrah cabinets left over from the Syrah days. According to Mick there are only 10 Chenins in sheoak that say "Syrah" in existence. The model name above the serial # on the back also says Syrah which seems strange to me. So I guess I have a Chenin.
Thanks again |
One thing you guys have to remember is that there are Suprateks out there that use other tubes in the phono stage. Mine is one, it uses only 6c45pi. Cello's is another, his uses (correct me if I am wrong Larry) 2 6c45pi and 2 6922. The 6c45pi are not part of the 417a/5842 family, regardless of what anyone says.
I guess it proves that any Supratek is truly a custom piece. I have not heard of any 2 that are exactly the same. So I guess what I am saying is you cannot look at tube topology to identify a model. Everybody says that the Syrah only has one tube in the ps. Wrong!
Joe |
Hello all,
I'm from Italy and apologize for my poor English.
After reading this subject many times I'm ready to joining the "club", as i'm ordering today or tomorrow a Cortese. My current pre is ARC ls5 mk2 mod by GNSC, 7308s siemens outfitted, i really love it ims, but planning on a return to vinyl i need a pre-phono too.
I'm thinking now to keep my ls5 as linestage and Cortese as phono,then ....I'll decide which one will be the "winner" ims.
My system:
AA Capitole mk2--Gyrodeck sme309 Ruby2 .7v
Arc ls5 mk2.....
Goldmund 29M
Sonus Faber Amati.
Here is my little concern: Cortese or Grange? (the latter could be clearly better than arc allowing me to sell it)
Thanks everyone sharing opinions on my plan.
Sandro |
CORRECTION!
Braro,
My mistake! My preamp has a label for both the PS and the pre which says "Chenin", date of manufacture, and serial number to the location you specified previously.
cheers! |
Braro,
Mine (Chenin) uses 6922 and M8080(6C4). I do not know about the M8081. I do not see any markings that says Chenin or Syrah on mine either.
"When you mention "master volume" are you refering to the adjustable gain on the back of the pre?"
The Syrah has a "master level switch" on the back panel which has 5 positions. Does your preamp have the same?
Mine does not. Maybe because my preamp has an optional independent (L and R) balance control. So Mick did not include the Master Level Switch.
Ask Mick directly. I am pretty sure he will calrify whatever doubts you have. |
Hello Braro. Your pre is in fact the Chenin,identifiable by it's tube topology in the phono stage. The original Syrah and the cortese phono stage employed the 6gk5 and the 417/5842 family of dual triodes. Mick elected to use the more common 6922/6dj8 and 6J6 dual triodes for the phono stage of the Chenin. Hey gang.... there are many nos substitutes or deratives for both the 6J6 and the 6922.The 6j6 can be substituted with many drop in deratives such as the British made m8081,the telefunken ecc91 as well as a host of many others. Regarding the 6dj8/6922 dual triode.It is a relatively common tube and for many years has been the tube of choice for the phono stage of almost every major commercial company. There are a lot of sonic flavours to the 6922 family of triodes although the best examples of the tube can be rather pricy for tube rolling experimentation. I am not sure of what brand of 6922 that Mick is supplying with the chenin but I would suspect the Chenin is delivered with a currently made tube from russia or china. If that is infact the case here, and if you think it sounds great now...WOWZA!.... I can assure all of you here that your in for a very major surprise here as any one of the 60's examples of that tube type from manufacturers like seimens, telefunken, amperex,mullard etc will just flat out "knock your socks off" as a substitute here, and give one a lot more options to voice and dial in the sonic flavour of the phono stage with ones cartridge of choice! Just a word of caution though.... The 6922 family of dual triodes can be prone to microphonics and can also be noisey right out of the box, never a good thing in any high gain phono stage let alone the supratek. Those here with a stock of nos 6922/6dj8/ecc88/ecc188's and cca's may want to roll them here and post your findings. For those that don't have nos stock of the 6dj8/6922 family... I have a relatively inexpensive tube recommendation that's a definative sleeper tube substitute here and with little risk or liabilty. I suppose we can call it a nos tube as it was actually manufactured strictly for the Russian Miltary before the Soviet empire's collapse. The 6n23eb can be found out there [with a little searching] and every example of this tube is extremely quiet, sounds nothing like the hard and glarey sovtek examples being manufactured today. The triode sections are tighter than any other example of this tube type including the legendary cca's from seimen and telefunken. |
Amandarae,
My pre has 6922 and M8081. The manual does refer to the pre as a Chenin. Both pre and power supply say "Syrah" in the bottom left corner.
When you mention "master volume" are you refering to the adjustable gain on the back of the pre?
Thanks |
Braro,
Do you mean that the manual says "Syrah" but you have the Chenin?
The Change in name from Syrah to Chenin as I recall Mick explained to me was necessary because of the new phono section implemented. If your preamp uses 417A or variants in the phono section, then you have a Syrah. If it uses 6C4 and 6922, then it is definitely a Chenin.
Yes, the manual mentions "Syrah" but if you look at the very first page, it says, and I quote, ..."Thank you for purchasing a Supratek Chenin Preamp.....".
Also, I believe the Syrah has a Master Volume Control. My Chenin does not have one.
I could be wrong but that is what I got.
cheers! |
Hi Larry, l thought l would post my repsonse to your other thread here before it gets lost in all the possum vs Coon and red wine chatter!
Cheers
_________________________________________
There wouldn't be many around that have heard both, myself included. l bought the Chardonnay so l didnt have to wonder.
l would call Mick. l find him honest, he will tell it like it is and not just try and sell you the more expensive pre. He will explain the circuit differences etc and the sound differences, you can then decide if its worth it to you.
Cheers |
