OK Supratek Syrah owners, what is your favorite tube compliment in your preamp? I am using Ken-Rad Black Glass 6SN7' Tung-Sol 5881's, Mullard 6GK5's, and Bendex Redbank 6106 as the rectifier tube. I am still using the stock tubes in the front of the phono stage. I am getting a lot of air between instruments with a lot of low level resolution with this setup. I sometimes switch out the Ken-Rads for 1940's Sylvania VT-231's or Tung-Sol round plates. How about the rest of you, what sounds best to your ear?
Preamp Deal of the Century
If anyone is looking for a true "World Class" preamp at a very fair price..heed my advice. I just recieved a Supratek Syrah preamp that was hand built by Mick Maloney in Western Australia, and it is absolutely beautiful! This preamp is the best deal you will ever find. I would put it up against any preamp out there for both looks and sound. Price? $2500 for the Syrah (includes Killer Phono stage). Not into phono? Try the Chardonney line stage for $2100. Don't get me wrong, I am not associated with this company. I am just a very happy owner! This preamp is VERY dynamic, yet liquid. It conveys the sound of music better than any other preamp that I have ever heard! You can check out the Supratek website at www. cantech.net.au
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I don't want to pick a fight, but here's another alternative - Mick could raise the prices by $500 so that he can hire a marketing person to announce new developments in a more "sensitive" way, and then another $500 increase so he can update the website more quickly. IMO you're being WAY too hard on Mick...be patient and let the man practice his art. You already have a great preamp and if he offers to upgrade it when he has time that's icing on the cake. |
This is, by far, the most enjoyable thread I have found. The easygoing, friendly atmosphere in the back-and-forth interactions is such a refreshing change from the obsessive-compulsive, teeth-nashing intensity that characteriazes so much of high-end audio. And everyone here seems to really love music, too. Go figure! I hope that this thread just goes on and on. Thanks, folks. jeffreyfranz |
Glad to see the thread back on thread. I've admired the participants here not only because they use their own ears to evaluate equipment, but also because, unlike so many audiophiles who submit to the conspiracy theory that the government is withholding the use of matter transmitters each time they insist they cannot wait for overnight fedex to get those new, great cables that will change everything forever, you all have been able to wait for a truly outstanding product that you have never seen or heard. Hmmm. Or that an indication of another kind of weirdness? |
Hi guys, this is the first time I have checked on this thread in a while. Whow! sounds like some controversy. When I started this thread, it was to let everyone know what a great product Mick had. I am sorry to see this controversy come up, but let me put my 2 cents worth in and I will shut up. I have always felt Mike was a great guy to deal with and very fair in his dealings. Was this the best way to tell people of his new designs? I don't know. What I do know is that you will never own the "best" of anything for very long. All designers, including Mick will always strive for more. As for me, I still own my original Syrah and have NO plans to get rid of it. I have mated it to a Berning ZH270 amp and that match makes beautiful music for me. The first thing I do each day when I get home from work is turn on the the hi fi. I hope all of you find that magical piece of equipment that "does it" for you. The Syrah is that piece of equipment for me. I don't care what happens to the resale. I am just happy listening to great music! You are all a great bunch of guys and I wish you all the best. |
But its a real problem, everytime ya think your at the top of the heap they pull you back into the mix with something better. btw Bwhite, I am not concerned about the value of my Syrah falling, that isn't the reason I bought it in the first place. Furthermore, if something comes along that bests it by a substantial margin at a similar price, I would consider it a breakthrough and would chalk it up to REAL progress. And if your Cortese is that much better than the Syrah, I'm sure there would be interested potential buyers, myself included. If it is just a matter of improvement in the noise floor at the high gain setting, I just so happen to own an amp where this would be a non issue. Nice post Steve. My objection to Mick's comments was strictly based on the good news, bad news without mention of recourse to the bad news as was Bwhite's it seems. |
Steve - cool. Great reply. Thank you very much. I am no stranger to Mick's new product announcements... I had a Chardonnay in my hands for 2 weeks, comparing it to $10,000 preamps and thinking it was the best under 10K... when the Cortese arrived and made the Chardonnay the best under 5K... :) Then, when I finally saved up enough cash to buy a Cortese, Mick introduced the Grange. The good thing is that Mick has done a great job of providing me with something to look forward to - I guess. I think you've done a good job of smoothing over the rough edges of this announcement. Perhaps there will not be a ripple of confused perception surrounding (and damaging) the reputation of existing Cortese and Grange preamps. |
Hi Brian...no need to apologise, I didn't take any real offence to what you said ( "like water off a duck's back" as we Aussies like to say). I am not the PR arm of Supratek, but I do know Mick well and underneath it all he's always well meaning. I wouldn't read too much into his use of the words 'bad news'. Again, it's just a figure of speech and that's how the man expresses himself, it's his way of bringing a bit of comaraderie into the conversation and I don't think he saw any harm in it. As to whether what he's saying and what I'm saying is the correct picture, I think it's a bit of both, but you have to read and interpret more what he's said than what I've said, as it's only my angle on it. If I were you, don't play a word game on the net - it'll get too complicated, just talk to him about the whole thing and he will explain it better than I can. My point with the whole issue is that the Supratek pre's are so far ahead of most - that you've already got something very special on your hands, so be happy! I'm sure even Michaelangelo improved on his paintings as time went on, so why can't Mick with the Cortese/Grange. Regards, Steve M. |
Steve, I appreciate your input and apologize for my "passion" (as Asa put it). I should not have directed it at you per se'... Perhaps it's because I know you are close to Mick and the explanation you are giving seems to deeply contrast that which Mick himself posted. Mick's post clearly indicated a revolutionary improvement to the design and your post seems to indicate that this is nothing more than solving a compatibility issue. Mick's post started by saying this was bad news for existing customers and you seem to indicate it is not. So my question to you is, who do we believe? Should we believe Mick, or should we believe you? I'd like to know. Sure, I could email Mick myself and get an explanation but because he made the decision to use the forum to make a "bad news to present owners" product announcement, he should use this forum to clear up the confusion created by that announcement. I am sure there are more people interested than just me. |
Passion, passion, not a bad thing, if directed appropriately... Even ignoring Mick's response, I don't think this is an example of the manipulative marketing stategy of the Sig model, or Master series, or Mk II, etc. that we are all on the gaurd for and which we, assumably, have assumed we had, in some small measure, escaped from when purchasing our original Syrah et al. Small manufacturers who are passionate - and, of course, this passion is where the original pre's derived - also tend to passionately introduce new models. Commonsense wise, Mick should have mentioned the upgrade path, but, as some have noted, I don't think that was what he was meaning to talk about in the first place. If I had just purchased a Grange and saw this message, then my initial reaction might have been as some of the above. But, then again, I think I would have contected Mick directly on that matter, and I'm sure, given Mick's past performance, I would have been accommodated in the context of the retail price and potential upgrade, don't you think? As for myself, I still own the Syrah - one of the early ones - and I know that its resale value, like all of our components, will eventually fall. In that context, a question: have we all become a wee bit spoiled that our pre's are holding their value so well? Its the stereo game. Mick didn't invent it, and he's not, like most manufacturers, abusing it. Its a luxury, one that 99.9% of the planet's population can not even consider. Within that sub-culture, .1% you have found a product that comes along only .1% of the time. A new model for guys who can shell $7500 for a pre doesn't change that... |
Thanks for the positive comments Fiddler & Jazzdude! And Jazzdude, I stand corrected about the gain issue, you are quite right, the new Cortese/Grange circuit maintains that high gain aliveness with apparently little noise. Brian, I can appreciate that you have recently bought a Cortese preamp and feel that you have missed out on the new circuit, but as you can see from Mick's generous offer of an upgrade, the solution to your problem was already there, all you had to do was call Mick. I think Mick's honesty, direct approach and accessibility by his clients is sometimes to his detriment! I mean, if you bought an X-Series Pass Labs amp today, and found out tomorrow that a 'new' Z-Series has been released, would you go looking all over the planet for Nelson Pass to tell him what you thought of him ?? I doubt it ... so why do it to Mick, at least he's had the decency to discuss this matter openly. I also stand by my comments about gain not being an issue on the Cortese depending on the system you are using. If I can explain, I have the luxury of being able to put together several combinations of cdp/amps/pre's/speakers in my home, depending on my mood and preference at the time. For example, if I line up the Cortese with the low sensitivity Merlot monoblocs or the Pass Labs Aleph 3 and a Proac Response 2.5 loudspeaker (87dB efficiency), then the sound is very sweet with absolutely no issues of high gain or noise. Alternatively, if I throw in a Krell KSA-100 (loud and highly sensitive) together with my W.A.R Audio Reference Two loudspeakers using Raven Ribbons(95dB)/Accuton Ceramic mids/Cabasse 21NDC bass drivers, then some background hiss can be heard. Hence, my comment that if your system is not highly sensitive, then the gain of the Cortese is not an issue. Please note also that my reference to Mick as the 'master' is just a figure of speech and is not meant to be sub-servient. You must admit though, that he is the creator (maybe I should use this term ? but it's too pretentious) of the beautiful pre-amps that we all love, so a little bit of respect wouldn't go astray. Brian, I have read all of your posts and you come across as a very reasonable and knowledgeable person and your enthusiasm for Supratek is reknowned. Please don't flame me further on any of my comments, they are really just that - my opinions, and not worth getting hot-n-botherd about. 'Creativity' and 'the zeal to improve' are necessary ingredients for making lovely music out of a bunch of valves; transformers; capacitors and resistors! I for one, am glad that Mick Maloney has a furtive mind and continues on the quest to get better and better with his Supratek products - we're all the winners in the end ... Regards, Steve M. |
Stevem - even though you are mentioned on the Supratek website (at the bottom of the preamp page) as a helpful and encouraging person, I do not believe you have your facts straight and therefore are not helping any. *We* should consult the master? Well.. The master hasn't bothered to come back to explain anything and hasn't updated his website. He just waltzed in here and told us that he had bad news. Mick's "intro" post: The bad news for present owners is that I've completely redesigned the Cortese/Sauvignon and the Grange/Cabernet preamps. Thanks for the encouragement Steve but I don't believe that announcing improvements to a design as "bad news" for present owners is very professional -- perhaps that's why *I* jumped off the deep end. Steve, you confuse me when you say, If noise is not an issue with your current Cortese/Grange in your system then the upgrade is also not an issue? If that were the case, they why on Earth would this be BAD NEWS for existing owners? This is where I think you need to consult the master yourself before trying to smooth things over with silliness like that. It's pretty clear, Mick's announcement either indicate changes more significant than solving noise issues or a newly crafted line of B.S. that none of us have heard before. I am waiting for the master. |
Hi Everybody- sorry for the delay in getting back to you all-I didn't realize my post had stirred up some comment. I dont actually get a chance to look at this forum very often ,and I hope that any owners of Supratek products have no hesitation in contacting me personally if they have an issue about anything- I take a great deal of pride in my service and always try to reply to personal emails asap, but cant follow the forums with my limited spare time. However, should I have used the forum to announce new models? On reflection, maybe not- but I'm selling the new models now and I thought everyone had a right to know what the situation was- rather than hearing misinformation third or fourth hand. As to possible upgrades-I've already done two and should have said that it was possible- again I presumed that any interested would contact me directly. Obviously I have to fit them in when I can, as I dont make any income on upgrades as they stop me building new preamps, but I will do it as soon as possible and at minimum cost to the owner- I dont think I can reasonably be asked to do more. I can understand that some would get upset about new models, but it is a part of life that change happens. I only introduce new models when I think it has to be done to improve the sound and features of the preamps-with some reluctance as I can appreciate the feelings of people whose preamp has just been superseded. But I had no choice- the new Cortese/Sauvignon, Grange/Cabernet are much better sounding and are very versatile- previously there were some power amps that they were simply not a good gain match with- now they will happily work with any power amp and bring the best out of them. Please note that this issue does not apply to the Syrah and Chardonnay preamps- I'm very happy with them and have no plans to replace them at all. Incidentally, the Syrah and Chardonnay make up about 80% of Supratek production. Please contact me direct at supra@supratek.biz if you would like any further feedback. MickM |
You guys need to calm down a bit here, and you may be missing the point about Mick's announcment. The issue at hand is all about 'controlling potential noise problems/mismatches with amplifiers from other manufacturers' with some further improvement in sound. It's not about current Cortese/Grange owners being somehow stuck with an inferior product, it appears that Mick's new circuit maintains the magical sound of the original circuit but at lower gain therefore better matches amplifiers that have high gain. If noise is not an issue with your current Cortese/Grange in your system then the upgrade is also not an issue? You are also jumping off the deep end without consulting the master first! Mick is a very approachable and helpful guy who takes great pride in his work. I am sure any of you who require the upgrade need only ask him and he'll probably do it. |
Tubegroover - think about it, the Cortese (and Grange I suppose) is hugely better than the Syrah in that it is WAY more refined, solid, and of a much higher quality standard than the Syrah - in my experience. While sonically they are quite similar, the Cortese is in every way a more precise instrument - having owned/heard both, there is no question in my mind. Without going into detail speculating how this could effect used Syrah prices, lets just say that if the price of a used Cortese were to fall substantially, who in their right mind would pay $2500 plus customs and shipping for a new Syrah from Australia vs. buying a used Cortese in good condition? Anyhow.. I may have totally over reacted to this and therefore put too much emphasis on "resale value" which while important & something Supratek is "famous" for, is not what really matters. What seems most important (to me) is whether or not Mick provides an upgrade plan to Cortese/Grange customers - without that, this announcement of progress will most certainly hurt all who have supported Supratek - in one way or another. |
I agree with Bwhite regarding this matter. Furthermore using this forum for such an announcement seems inappropriate to me. I would hope for a nominal cost that Mick would offer to upgrade the existing Cortese and Grange out there to the level of the "new and improved" models if it is possible. If not, he might have been wiser in not using this forum to display his enthusiasm. Having said that and getting back to the topic of the thread "Preamp Deal of the Century", don't believe for a second that that the value and performance of the Syrah and Chardonney have been diminished by Mick's post. They are superb performers in their price range and above and most importantly, a great value. After all, how many handmade, hardwired, transformer coupled full function all tube pre-amps are available for 2.5K? I would welcome knowing of just ONE that performs to this level at this price point. |
Hi Fiddler, I'm not pissed. I simply think that there should be some consideration for existing customers. The post didn't seem to indicate there was any - and I am waiting to hear back from Mick before getting too emotional about this. Mick's products are great and *I* look forward to hearing what his newest designs sound like but truth be told, Mick's "sales force" is mostly made up of existing customers. I cannot even count the number of emails I've received/answered and the amount of personal time I've spent communicating about these products - and in effect, selling the Supratek brand. Likewise, I am sure there are many more people out there doing the same thing - and in essence, helping spread the word about Supratek products. You'll notice that Mick doesn't advertise in the audio mags nor has he ever. The popularity of his gear has been generated by word of mouth and by satisfied customers. This "preamp deal of the century" thread is by far the most active/popular thread on Audiogon which in turn is the most active/popular audio website on the internet. This is where a great majority of the Supratek advertising happens and it's no wonder Mick posted his announcement here. I am confident that Mick will offer an upgrade path (but dismayed that there was no mention of this in the "new product announcement"). If existing customers do not upgrade to the new design and confirm to the world that there is an improvement, the "sales cycle" as it is now will stop functioning. I'm not a sales genius but it occurs to me that taking care of his customers would be the best way to ensure his "life's work" continues to be successful. |
BWhite, once again your points are well taken, but AA is full of posts complaining about manufacturer upgrades. Cable companies (especially power cords) seem to be the worst offenders. I suspect that Mick thought his products were the best he could build at the time, but with continued testing and computer modeling, he discovered better circuits. I wish everything I have purchased in audio was the last and greatest, but it ain't gonna happen. I know you are pissed, but look at Levinson, Krell, CJ, Plinius, MF, etc. They are constantly upgrading and last year's model drops like a rock. Mick's products have held their value very well and I suspect they will continue to do so. They have consistently out-performed other gear in the used market because of the hype (justified), long wait and reputation. Will used Suprateks continue to sell in the used market for nearly 100% of the original purchase price? I doubt it, but they will still probably beat the averages. I guess I am not upset because I never buy any audio gear as an investment. I figure going in I will lose 50% of the original purchase price when I go to sell it. If I can eventually sell Mick's gear for anything over 50%, I figure I am ahead of the game. Good luck and happy listening. |
Fiddler, you are correct. While Mick's products have been successful as a result of how they sound, that does not diminish the fact that his customers -- the ones willing to "bite the bullet" and buy a preamp on faith, without ever listening to it -- are the ones who financed that progress and therefore should be given the respect of an upgrade path. I commend Mick on his progress both in the development of new products as well as his ongoing customer support & loyalty to his customers but I am a bit stunned at how careless this "new product introduction" was and how little it took those die-hard Supratek advocates into consideration. My take on Mick's post was basically that it was a slam on the Cortese / Grange and the general overtone somehow seemed that Mick was never happy with that design to begin with. The slow progression/evolution of the Cortese design into something which is much more like the Syrah than it was in its inception is clear evidence of this dissatisfaction. Yet, Mick's never failed to tell his potential customers how great his preamps were and how he couldn't possibly build anything better - in so many words. Now.. we hear it again. With this post, Mick claims to have done what he never thought possible. Just like what he said when he built the Cortese and then again when he built the Grange. Sorry for rambling here. I'd really like Mick's input on this before writing more speculation. :) So in closing, Fiddler... It's not just MY pain. If the value of Cortese and Grange preamps fall, so will the value of Syrah. This pain is for all Supratek owners. I am as I said, interested in Mick's follow up comments on this topic because I feel it would be in his best interest to provide an upgrade path for his customers - for many reasons. |
BWite, I feel your pain. If I had the previous version I would want the upgraded unit myself. But in reality, we are talking about progress here and it ain't never gonna stop. Actually I applaud Mick for continuing to push the envelope with his designs and trying to constantly improve them. As the old saying goes, "Change or die". |
Hey Mick, that's great I am very happy for you and the progress/success of Supratek but what about the Cortese/Sauvignon and the Grange/Cabernet owners who just got screwed over by your joyful announcement? Is there any plan for helping existing owners in upgrading the Cortese/Sauvignon and the Grange/Cabernet preamps or should we try to sell these now before more people read the thread and the resale value of these units plummet? Thoughts? |
Hi Everybody. I've got some good news and some bad news. The bad news for present owners is that I've completely redesigned the Cortese/Sauvignon and the Grange/Cabernet preamps. Sorry, but as the label on the old GE tube boxes says "Progress is our most important product" The good news is that after many years I finally have the "higher-end" production pres sounding as I always have wanted them to sound. It has been a hard and often frustrating journey- I've always prefered the sound of high gain preamps, although there is more to it than just the gain aspect as phase is a very important and often overlooked part of the overall sound design package. The high gain pres sound more "alive" and 3D like- they have magical imaging properties that can throw a soundstage as deep as wide with the right speakers and amps. The difference is not subtle- it is instantly more realistic and lifelike. Joyful isn't too strong a word. The BIG problem is the high gain- everything gets amplified to high levels, including the inherant noise of the preamplifier, which is quite low, being fully regulated. However the inherant noise of the following power amp also gets amplified and these are usually much noisier than a good preamp. If the power amp has high gain, and many do these days in order to be used with CD direct, then the hum and noise can be intrusive,especially with high effeciency speakers. The solution is to use a low gain/sensitivity power amp- then you have the preamp providing the voltage gain and the power amp turning it into current to drive the speakers. Each unit does what it is best at then and gives the optimum sound. And noise levels are inaudible, even with high effeciency speakers. This is what I've used for years, and is how I like to build systems- high gain preamps and low gain power amps. Unfortunately, in the real world there are very few low gain/sensitivity power amps,so I've had to compromise the design of the preamps to limit the gain. Over the last year Kevin and I have taken the design of the higher ended preamps even further up the scale- to a standard that I didn't think was even possible. I cant begin to describe how involving these preamps are. Even now after nearly 30 years of doing this, I still have to have my daily dose of sitting down and soaking up the pure enjoyment of listening to such a joyful sound. But we've been doing this with preamps I couldn't sell! Match these with a high gain power amp and the noise will come through-some who have heard them are quite prepared to put up with it to have the sound, but i haven't been prepared to sell them like that. I 've been looking for a solution for years- how to get the magic sound of the high gain pres into a low gain version. In August 2003 the solution came to me, and after a few months of fine tuning the concept, the all new Cortese/Sauvignon, Grange/Cabernet designs were finished and are now being built. The web page will be updated soon with all the details. Please note that this update does not relate to the Syrah/Chardonnay preamps- I'm very happy with the performance of these preamps and see no reason to change the configuration of them. Cheers Mick Maloney- SUPRATEK |
