Roni, thanks. My jaw is also on the floor, every time I turn that amp on and listen to it. Lak will be on the vinyl boat soon. |
Twl, I have not heard the Dennon, so I will take your learned opinion as the reference on this subject.
I have been corresponding with Lak on e-mail, and have been preaching the virtues of analogue to him. He used to use a dual 1228 and still has it. No wonder he is cd only.
Twl you are the man! just read about the HOLEY GRAIL WOW!!!!!
My jaw is on the floor.
Roni |
Hi Rockinroni.
Yes, I use a Shelter 501 right now, and it's very nice.
I have not owned an AT OC-9 personally, but have heard them many times. They are quite a nice cartridge, and have been sort of a cult item for years. Not in the league of the Shelter, but better than alot of cartridges in its price range. I'd have to say that on my arm, I prefer a Denon DL103R in the lower price ranges, but that's a personal preference, and some may like the OC-9 better. |
Twl do you use a shelter? Maxgain you need to dump that shure thing and get a OC9 brand new only $299. I know you will love it, Always quite. better Musically than any CD. Twl what do you think about the OC9? ever tried one? I remember reading a old review about the OC9 15 years ago, the guy said don't let the low price scare you off. Meaning just because it was only $400 at that time, it was a giant killer. also I recently read a review of that final tool table, and the guy says at the end, "on this table he heard a OC9 mimic a new Lyra Helikon. I think there is some sort of a conspiracy to hide the fact of how good this MC is.
Fermer said 6 months ago he had a review of the new OC9 for us next month. The review never went to print, well not yet anyway.
About lp's I also buy and sell allot on eBay just check the guys feedback first, and if the guy or sometimes girl (ya like they know anything about vinyl) sounds like they don't know how to grade, THEY DON'T.
I am getting into a lot of new music like someone else said, new to me. This stuff is 30 years old and most of the progressive rock that I Love, some on the, old Virtigo swirl label, is GREAT!!! and you can always find Jazz or Classical.
I also have a old vanderstein OL-1 mc step up device, class A operation, I don't need any more.
Bye for now guys,
Roni |
I don't have any bad feelings at all and was not upset in the least by TWL's strong opinion. I just wanted to put in a good word for my beloved black beauty. lol |
Twl, the McDonald's seat thing is an urban legend. Seat turnover is not an issue in your typical McDonald's. 55% of their business only uses the drive-thru and never enters the building. The number of seats in a restaurant is actually set by local building codes which usually specifies more seats than McDonald's own studies indicate are necessary. What most people see as a lack of seats is usually a problem of seat grouping and layout. |
Jackcob, I wasn't trying to start anything, as it was my question to Twl that brought out the strong opinion. I was trying to qualify some of the information he is giving me and that gives me some frame of reference. An opinion was what I was after. I am in the throws of an analoge mid life crisis, and Twl is trying to help me out. I know that cartridges are very system dependant and as subject to taste as speakers. I have a friend that I have not seen in many years who I know for a fact is a good listener. We communicate some via e-mail now. I do trust his judgment on things of an audio nature. This friend of mine used an expensive ClearAudio MC and likes it very much. I have to assume that his system is voiced to work well with it. His system is very different than Twl's. I am sure that they both get good sound from their systems as I am confident that you do as well using the Black Beauty. In no way was I trying to stir up any bad feelings with my question. As experienced audiophiles we know that how you set up your system can be just as important, if not more so in some cases, than what gear you own. Thanks for all the info. |
Sorry Jack. I thought that I might ruffle a feather or two with that comment. Just my opinion. I'm sure your rig sounds great. Different people like different things. Not everyone would like what I have.
I probably should have worded my comment a little more diplomatically. :^)
I'm glad you're listening more and enjoying it. That's what it's all about. |
TWL said: "And Clearaudio and VDH are ridiculous. The Shelter 501 will beat the VDH $5k Black Beauty, and I don't like any of the Clearaudios."
Well since I own and love my VDH black beauty, let me speak up on its behalf. In my prior setup (LP12, EkosII, Cirkus bearing, Lingo power), I was using a Monster Cable Sigma Genesis cartridge (the last model I think). I loved it. After it got old, I replaced it with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature and had it for a couple of years. I liked that warm and musical sound, very involving. I then tried the VDH black beauty and loved it. To my ears, while not as warm as the Koetsu, it is plenty warm enough, very musical and is MUCH better in transparency, resolution and sounstaging. It just creates the illusion of a performance in front of me in all its variety and detail (I listen only to classical music) in a way the Koetsu never did. It also tracks better than any other MC I have ever had. After hearing the BB, the Koetsu sounded obviously colored, as if it was imparting its own characteristic euphonic sound on every recording.
I now have my VDH BB running on a VPI TNT MkV with JMW 12.5 arm. It's an absolutely killer combo, that has me listening more than I have in years. |
Twl,thanks for the Jensen site info. Those are a real possibility. The transformers are small,look easy to do something with, and only $104 each. Good info to have on hand. |
Here's a link to the Jensen transformer page with all the criteria for selecting the right one.
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/mc.html
Yes I'm talking about VDH and Clearaudio mainly. Benz has a couple of carts that are ok, like the LO-.4, and the Glider at a lower price point. Mostly all Euro stuff is overpriced and has a zippy high end. Also too clinical, and lacking life.
And yes, it is happening with cables and stuff too. There seems to be a marketing trend that is going for impressive high end detail that is unnatural and tiresome. The same goes for alot of speakers.
The Ortofons that I like tend to be the older ones or the ones derived from those older models. I still like the Jap cartridges better, though.
And Clearaudio and VDH are ridiculous. The Shelter 501 will beat the VDH $5k Black Beauty, and I don't like any of the Clearaudios.
So when we realize that this is happening with the products, it becomes harder to find the musical stuff, and we really have to work hard to find it. It is almost never put in front of our noses, because all the magazines and dealers are showing us some German engineer in a white lab coat, with his spec chart saying," Alles is Gut!" Then they want us to pay $5k for this Teutonic spec chart wonder, that is about as lifeless as a dead carp laying on the dock.
So that's why nearly all my audio equipment is considered "wierd" or is totally unknown to most people. I have to go out of the mainstream to get what I want. There are still manufacturers out there who know what musical sound is, but they are getting fewer. And everyone is being sold a new case of "audiophile fever" every month.
Think about it. If you sell them something that will satisfy them, they won't be looking to upgrade next month. If you sell them something that is initially impressive, and will drive them out of the room after a month, they will be in the market again looking to upgrade. More sales.
I remember hearing once that McDonalds purposely put uncomfortable seats in their dining rooms, so people would just eat and get out, to make room for more customers.
This has become an industry that is putting money ahead of everything else. It is up to us to spend the time and effort to find the products that make sense for us. This is why I keep talking about this stuff that I've found that works good. Somebody has to do this. |
Twl, where can one get raw Jensen transformers? It can't be very hard to build something. All you need are some RCA's, a case, and the transformers, Right?
When you mention Euro cartridges, I assume you are refering to the ClearAudio and Van Den Hul stuff? Do you put Benz in this same group? You seem to like some Ortofon units. A friend just got a Kontrapunkt b he seems to like. Don't get me wrong, there seems to be proponents of all sorts of sounds out there that I don't understand. A great deal of the speakers I hear fall into that group. There seems to be a trend to what I feel are overly bright speakers now, I guess that has been going on for some time. Perhaps this is the same trend that you are pointing to in the Euro cartridge arena. Detail at the expense of all else? I like detail, I just don't want it shoved at me and force fed to me. I think the same may be going on with cables as well. |
The Jensen transformers are pretty good, and are sometimes included in some of the better phono stages to provide the MC input stage.
I think that the transformer should be located as close to the tonearm as possible, to boost the signal at the earliest possible point, so the information losses from these very low level signals traveling along the wire is minimized. |
I understand that the ARC Ref Phono uses the Jensen transformers in it. I admit that my experience with transformers in the past were tainted and most likley loading related. Thanks for giving me some better info to digest. It is opening my eyes a bit. It is easy to come to the wrong conclusion at times with this stuff. I know people do it all the time with speakers and electronics. |
Hi, I'm back. Here's a little info from the Audio Note Kondo site on MC Step ups:
"Due to the extremely low output, we do not recommend the use of active moving coil stages for any of the Audio Note cartridges, as they do not offer the linearity and general noise level necessary to get the best yield from the Io cartridges, this requires a transformer."
Now if it's good enough for Kondo-San, it's good enough for me.
I have found that my experiences have also borne out his findings. I use a Cotter Mk2, and I like it. If I could afford the $6k AN silver wound transformers, I'd certainly give them a shot.
What do you guys think? |
Maxgain,
The BPS is just great in the noise department. I've used it with my older Naim gear and my Linn. I know that few audiophiles that frequent this site think highly of Linn but I've got to say that the phono stage is superb in my Wakonda. It would be nice if someone would loan you one of these cartridges to try out. It isn't the best but it just may save you from dumping analog playback. I'm confident that one of the other recommendations made by Twl for a higher output mc (Ortofon X5-MC @ $115) would be superior to the BPS. I agree with you about the price of new lp's. Most do seem to be heavier and more in line with audiophile pressings.
I've lived in Idaho for 15 years now and enjoy the recreational opportunities here but have yet to hook up with anyone that seeks a higher level of playback. We have one rather small high end store in Boise. They suggested the BPS years ago based on my desire to not invest in a step up device and the money I was willing to spend. Until a recent return to home outside of Omaha I had not had a chance to listen to any other offerings.
I'm putting together a "get by" system thanks to the loan of a receiver by Twl and will be listing my current system for sale shortly. Since I have so many albums and haven't grown tired of listening to them I will continue to be vinyl based. I do know that I'll be going the Lowther route and be tube based but I'm really concerned about the phono part of the equation. I'll be leaning heavily on Tom to steer me in the right direction. Unlike a lot of audiophiles I can't afford to make a mistake in doing this.
It will be interesting to see what happens in the coming years. There is undoubtedly a renewed interest in vinyl playback, the digital wars are far from over, copyright protection is in the forefront of the recording executives minds, the Redbook cd is losing it's patent, home theatre is driving the software side of things and I'm scratching my head. I yearn for a return of a simpler time when there were actual record stores filled with generic pressings that were affordable. Until then I will continue to buy small collections of vinyl and live mainly on music that's new to me but older. The listening part of this has been a lot of fun but the cleaning and sorting is a chore. Plus, what to do with the dogs? I hate to throw them in the trash but don't want to save them.
I apologize for the rambling and especially for being off topic but this is the best damn thread I've read in the year and a half I've been visiting this site.
Patrick |
Lugnut and Rockinroni,
The step up thing baffles me as well. I know if I had the money to buy any phono stage and cartridge that I desired this would be a non issue. I could get The Groove, or an ARC REF Phono, and run the microscopic mv coils evryone loves. I guess it is the sound that MM's make that I don't like. Perhaps I will try another MC before I dump it all. It's tough to get new releases on LP. If you do find them they are the expensive heavy weight audiophile pressings. It sounds like you guys get your newer stuff on CD. Does your BPS read noise like mad, Lugnut? I know Twl didn't have much good to say about it, what do you think of it? I could live with a few warts if the damn thing was quiet. |
Maxgain,
I have an all Linn Aktiv system, LP12/Ittok/Valhalla, Wakonda, Genki, (2)Lk100's, Keilidh. I've had the LP12 since '84 and owned a previous version bought in the late '70's prior to that. I previously had a modest Naim kit consisting of 42.5/110 and Linn Sara's. Early on I had AR/Klipsch/Thorens. I guess I am a collector of lp's since I have rarely parted with anything I bought. Maybe I'm fortunate to not live in an area with worthy radio stations so I don't get exposed to a lot of new music. Our local library is my source for auditioning new tunes. I go there a couple of times a week and check out 5 cd's. I have two used record stores locally and one of them has fair prices with most lp's being less than $10 and the quality is great. The new music that I like I buy in whatever format they are made. My vinyl library is too large to give you an exact count but is over 3,000. Oh yeah, I use a Blue Point Special and would like to get either a new DL 103R or have my FR1 MKII rebuilt. Both of these choices would require a step up device and that's what is putting a cartridge change on hold. |
Gentleman if you want to read some very good reviews on the shelter cartridges and the Koetsu Black, Rosewood, Rosewood Signature, and Urushi Moving Coil Cartridges go to jerrys audio pages http://www.21stcenturyservices.com/audio/
This guy is good. The shelter 501 is actually the Crown Jewel which Michael Fremer reviewed in Stereophile (v.20 no. 4) where it was given a “Class A” rating, had a $2650 price tag. Mike also said in mike speak that it was as good as any in class A. He also along with other reviews I have read on this cartridge said that the 501 or Crown Jewel conveyed the emotion of the music better than any heard. I guess this is the trait of the Japanese sound, so to speak. years back when I started using mc's I could take the same lp from my house, and play it on my freinds Linn's with mm cartridges. I believe a v15 mark whatever and the noise was terrible. When played on my old systemdeck, silence. The noise you are hearing on the records, is I beleive, the mm cartridge you are using. I have a van den hull frog, that I like very much, unlike the benz I had before. I asked a reviewer of the 501 to give me his opinion, if he thought the 501 was as good or better than the frog. He said his "friend", tried both and perferred the frog. What about the old audio technica Signet oc9 II, with the Boron? I really liked the old verision years ago when I used them. The new one with the boron should be better, also the cantiliver on the 501 is aluminum just like the old signet oc9. Mr. Van den hull says boron is the best for cantilivers. But hey, I don't know. Hope you can use some of this information.
Ron |
Lugnut,(just turned 45 about a week ago)I am down to about 250-300 records. It is hard to find the most new stuff I am interseted in listening to. It culled my record colletion a few years back and it's about 1/4 of what it was. I never got a lot of the classic jazz & classical I should have bought years ago since I always thought I would get around to it. I got to hear that sfuff so much at work and at friends houses it didn't seem important to buy it at the time. I am by no means a record collector, who just buys stuff to have it. So my collection is sort of an odd blend of stuff that isn't real exciting to me right at the moment.Don't get me wrong I do have a lot of gems in there. What do you do if you want to listen to, say, a new band you just found out about like, Calexico. Where the hell you gonna find a copy of "The Black Light" on vinyl? Not gonna happen!
I think the pre is fine. Not everthing sounds noisy, but some of my favorites that were dead silent with the MC seem annoying now. It could be that I just have gotten too used to the sound of CD's.
You don't list your rig, what are you spinning your fuzzy warbles on(ever seen "A Clockwork Orange", "come hear all proper")? You know, flat, black, and circular. Licorice pizza. |
Hi Tom. Maxgain, I just have to ask since you seem to be an older guy too. How much vinyl do you have? As Tom mentioned, getting quality vinyl isn't that hard to do but requires a little work. It doesn't need to be expensive either. I'm with Tom on generally preferring the earlier pressings, especially if they are imports. Gotta beat the bushes and buy collections and discard the dogs.
I believe it was Max that was complaining about surface noise. I think you should really borrow another preamp just to see if your phono stage is out of shape. My gear doesn't come close to what you guys are using and the lack of noise is spooky. I have guests that accuse me of pretending to play records it's so quiet. |
Hey, I gotta get some work done. Signing off. |
|
Maxgain,
Don't bail on the analog thing! Nice thread guys.
Patrick |
I buy all used records off Ebay and A'gon. You can get NM condition ones for under $10 most of the time. I also think that the original prints sound better than the new re-releases anyway. |
The Studer thing is a pure sine wave power inverter, that allows me to use a 12vdc battery bank to power my preamp, which is the only part of my system which is AC powered. All my other stuff is purely 12vdc battery fed.
The inverter takes the 12vdc battery voltage and steps it up to 120 volts, and creates a 60 cycle sine wave out of it, so it can be a fully regulated 120vac power source, that uses the batteries to get the power from. This totally eliminates using any street-mains power for my system, and is much cleaner than any power conditioner could ever be. The Studer Inverter is less than .05% total distortion of the line current at full power, and has no noise or hash on the line. It was designed to power portable audio/video recording equipment in the field. It has a perfectly timed 60 cycle frequency, and fully regulated power feed. The sine wave production is perfect, with no sawtoothing. It is perfectly quiet and distortion free, and none of the phase drift or power grunge of normal street mains power.
I wanted to go all DC, but I have not had the custom preamp made for me yet, to achieve this. The preamp is the only AC powered device left in my chain. You would not believe what a difference battery power makes to the sound of this system. |
oops make that "Kind of Blue" DOH! |
Welcome to my nightmare Ecclectique! You seem like one of the gang already! |
I think what may be driving me out of analog is the price of new records( the damn things are $25 each if you can find what you want other than the 86th special re pressing of "Kinda Blue",as I mentioned I bought the CD player because I was tired of most of my collection),cartridges, and all the associated gadgets.
This may seem odd in this TT guy thread but I would much sooner buy a $5000 CD player than a $5000 cartridge. For one thing I can be more confident that I can get a used $5000 CD player with some life in it for around half of that. Used cartridges are a crap shoot.
Why do you think I have so much time to dink around here on Agon and with my Hi Fi, I haven't much worked since 9/11 happened, so that is something that would require selling something else, like the TT, current CD player, pre and Nitty Gritty. The records would have to finance new CD's. |
Geez Gang.Never even new this forum existed until today! I just discovered the equipment thread that you guys/girls have logged in. Twl... What is this Studer dc power converter thing? |
You gotta get a good one, and they're not cheap. The best I know of that you can get new, would be the EAR MC3, and the Shelter 411. The good used ones are the Cotter Mk2, like I have, but it has a very funky loading system, and requires soldering jumpers, and the correct diagram to tell you which ones to solder. Also some of the more expensive Ortofons are good, and of course the $6k silver wound Audio Note Kondo model is real good. If you can DIY, Bent Audio offers some raw transformers with schematics, so you can make your own for about $400. Or you could find some Lundahl or Jensen raw transformers, and do the same thing.
The $100 stuff isn't going to get you where you want to go. The good stuff is $800 and up. Sad, but true. |
2mv, is no problem at all for the 9 . That's what the Shinon was and it worked great. It sounded pretty good for a very long time and then all of a sudden, wow it gave it up! It was never my ultimate first choice, but it was given to me by a friend for the price of a re-tip. It may have been a bit hot on top in some ways but the rest of my system at the time(things have changed a little) was very mellow and it never seemed to be a problem.
Who make a decent transformer and where can I get some info on them for future reference. I actually was into medium to high output MC's(I think the EMT was 1mv, which is where my user name comes from, crank the old ARC to max and get those Maggies singing), since I never had good experiences with any sort of step up device in the past. |
Well, Max, the Shure should do ok in that arm. I think that maybe you have gone the wrong way in cartridge selection. When you like the sound of Japanese low compliance, low output MC, and then go to American high compliance, high output MM, you have to expect alot of difference.
If the price is a major factor, then the Denons, or the Ortofon X5-MC would be real nice. The X5-MC is a reasonably high output MC that is around 2mv, so it might work in your ARC MM phono section, without a transformer, if you have enough gain to support a 2mv cart.
The same guy, Martin, is also selling the X5-MC for around $115, which is way below the $325 retail.
I found that once I got hooked on low compliance, low output Japanese cartridges, I couldn't listen to anything else. You might consider this, because that might be what's driving you out of analog. |
I have one of the very first Well Tempered Labs tables with their arm on it that I have had since my last gig in the audio business. |
I have to say that I loved my SME III back in those days. I had the EMT nude mounted into the detachable arm wand. (it came in a big clunky head shell, and was the only way to use it with the III) |
Max, what TT/arm are you using it in? |
Yes, the FR-64 was a great one. Still highly regarded today. |
It may as well cost $150,000! I think that cartridges have gone insane in price for the most part.(other than some that we have talked about) The Supex never grabbed me like the Fidelity Research or the Dennon 103D did.Those wre my favorites back in the mid 70's.
I suspect that phono overload isn't my problem with noise. The modded ARC SP 9 that I use has a decent phono stage. O.K. Twl you don't get a kick out of the Grado's, can you elaborate? I now have a new(spooky to say)Sure V15 VmxR, is that my problem with my analog playback? I am wondering about trying to track so damn light, it just doesn't seem right to me after having 2 gram tracking MC's for so many years. |
Twl. I have to agree with your assessment on tracking,however;when the 103c was introduced,the fr-64 arm was[and still is] one of the best suited tonearms on the market for that particular cartridge.When you think back to the late 70s,there really wasn't a great deal of tonearms that were up to the task and the few that were[bruer,Fr-64,sumiko'the arm'etc] were rather pricy and generally were mated a better tracker. |
Max, the Celebration does look like the old Supex 900, and it may even be that. I haven't heard one, but when I saw a photo of one, I was encouraged. But $1500 is a bit much for a Supex 900, don't you think? |
Edle, I got my 103R from a member called Martin, who advertises a running ad on the Audiogon classified analog section. I haven't checked recently, but the last time I looked, he was selling them for $230. He is in Singapore, and is a reliable vendor. They are not imported into the US, so they can't be gotten here. You must order from overseas. If the ad is not there, use the member lookup, and email him. He will get back to you. |
The current equivalent of the 103c is the 103. They dropped the c designation, but it is the same cartridge that they have made since 1961. I had one of those prior to my 103R. The 103R is way better. It has smaller coils of 99.9999% OFC copper, and slightly lower output, and sounds great.
As far as poor tracking goes, that is the fault of the arms that it is used in, not the cartridge itself. The compliance of the 103 is very low, and puts alot of energy back into the arm, and very few arms can really handle this cartridge well. The arm is really causing the mistracking that is heard with this cartridge. It needs a fairly high mass arm, with great bearings. |
The Grado seemed to me to exagerate surface noise. It drove me nuts and I sold it. I did like the tonal balance and the rest of the sound qualities. Now I seem to have lost my groove, so to speak. |
Well I may get some flack for this, but you couldn't give me a Grado. Never liked them.
The stylus shape of some cartridges can make a noise difference, but my experience has always been that the phono section is more problematic in that area than the stylus shape. All records will put out some kind of ticks and pops, and the key is to have a phono section with a high overload margin, so it doesn't overload when all that wideband hash from the pops hits it. If the phono section doesn't overload, all you hear is a small click. If it overloads, you hear an amplified "explosion" as it amplifies the overload down the chain. This is one reason why alot of people like tube phono sections, because they don't have near the overload problems of alot of SS units. Naim has a very good phono section with a high overload margin, and they give very quiet operation with clicks and pops. That's the trick that most people don't know about. I had a conical stylus with my last DL103R, and 103, and have eliptical now with the Shelter, and noise was about the same. I am using a modded MFA tube preamp with a good phono section and NOS tubes.
For cleaning, I made my own record cleaner out of a lazy susan, with some cork coasters on it to protect the record. I then got a paint pad with those little nylon bristles for cutting in on wall painting. That works great for getting into the grooves. I use a 25/75 mix of alchohol/distilled water for the solution. For vacuuming, I got a used Bissel rug and upholstery cleaning machine at a yard sale for $2, and modded the nozzle to be correct for vacuuming the record. I protected the nozzle with industrial Velcro strips, like a Nitty Gritty does. I rotate the record on the lazy susan while applying the fluid with the paint pad, and work it all the way around. Then I turn on the Bissel, and vacuum it all off. Works great. Then I flip the record over and do the other side. The whole rig cost me about $12. It does as well as the Nitty Gritty or VPI, but doesn't look as cool. But it cost a whole lot less, and it works. |
Twl, isn't that what Sumiko was trying to do with the Celebration? That thing LOOKS like an old Supex to me anyway.
And as far as the "old" thing I had buddies that were into Decca's if that dates me!
I have an old Ortofon SPU/GT, including the original box( the cantiliver is tweeked a bit) hanging around that I dug out of the back of an ancient Hi Fi store I worked at back in the 70's, if antiques are interesting to anyone. |
Maxgain. Your wood grado should not be noisey.As a matter of fact I think they are very quiet.Does the noise sound like surace noise, phono gain noise or white noise? |
Twl. Is that the current equivalent of the 103c? which was a rather poor tracker even in the FR-64 tonearm. |
Perhaps I have drawn some conclusions about stylus shape and step up devices over my 30 years of fooling with tables and the related parifinalia. I need to find out more.
What is your take on the wood Grado's Twl, just to get a reference point that I know. I assumed that all the damn noise i heard from it was from the stylus shape. This was not there with my old micro ridge/boron coil. I see that the Shelter has an elliptical diamond. That sort of makes me wonder. I loved the EMT and it was of all things conical like the Dennpn 103.
The othe problem I have is(other than being broke)that my record collection needs something( I am boored with most of it too, which is why I got a CD in the first place, and new records are spendy as well). What do you do to keep things quiet? I use a Nitty Gritty but it isn't magic. Perhaps I am just more sensitive to the noise after 3 years of CD listening. I still may bail! |
HI,
Twl....
Where I can buy the Denon 103R?
Cheers......:):):).... |
Yes, I'm old and in the way. |
