I purchased my TAD-150/TAD-60 combo after researching tube gear on the web for 6 weeks. This is my first tube purchase, and Paul was very helpful and approachable when it came to answering questions and assisting me with my setup: mains - Rocket/Onix Reference 3; sub - Rocket UFW12. I was using an Outlaw 7125 amp, and a Denon 3805 as a pre, and couldn't help but feel that something was missing in the mids and highs. Most of my listening is classic & alt rock, and the guitar parts (especially those with overdrive) were not as punchy or dynamic as I knew they could be. At first I thought it was the speakers, but a fellow Ref 3 owner talked about how adding a tube pre really helped to open up the soundstage, especially in the mids, so I decided an upgrade to the "tube side" was in order. Must admit, I was skeptical at first. I mean, how much of a difference was this 60watt amp, and tube pre combo going to offer over my "state of the art" Denon, and 190 watt (bi-amped) Outlaw? Well, let me tell you, the difference is night & day. Don't let the 60watt rating fool you, the TAD-60 is plenty powerful and punchy, yet very musical and detailed. I like it best in Tri-mode which actually drops the wattage to 30, yet still there's plenty of power to drive my floor standing Ref 3s. In fact, I find myself turning down the sub, and setting it's crossover to 60, that's how good the bass response is. One of the nicest perks of this setup has been that even less than stellar cds and mp3s sound great, and offer details and nuances I've never heard before.
I've been playing guitar for 20yrs, and typically you can "feel" when the harmonics and overdrive are just right, and that's what the TAD-60 & TAD-150 do, they get it right. The rolling decay, and growl, with much added slam and punch, simply awesome. I love this gear so much, that for the past 3-4 weeks I listen to random Stones, Zep, Who, GD, etc 2-3 hours every night - yes, it drives my wife nuts, but I'm happy. Btw, the bias procedure is super easy, and takes only a few minutes. And I never thought I say this, but I'm actually looking forward to tweaking the sound with different tubes :) |
Jbsljbsl - I've no doubt that you'll enjoy the TAD-60 very much. And thanks for the tube recommendation. I just emailed Paul for some additional info on tube setups as it will be a first for me and I don't really know the different characteristics of the various tubes available, but I was thinking KT88s to start with (as they are mentioned so often), but you never know... |
Just rolled in a set of Electro-Harmonix KT-88s this weekend and the difference IMO was an overall improvement. The most noticeable difference was in increased headroom and a tighter more controlled bass. There was also a nice seperation of instruments in the highs and mids, a welcomed plus, because I love the sweet tone of the EL-34s but the KT-88s were right there as well. In general, I thought the EL-34 could muddy the bass a little when volume levels were cranked, where the KT-88 really held things together at high volumes. You know you've found a good thing when new things jump at you (in a good way) on familiar tunes that you couldn't zone in on before. Always brings a smile to my face. I was running the TAD-60 in tri-mode with the EL34s because I liked the warmth in the mid-range over the UL setting. However, I did like the extra power and dynamics UL provided, but I was constantly adjusting feedback to find that elusive level of warmth. With the KT-88s I have the TAD-60 set to UL mode now, with the feedback knob set at 2:30 and haven't felt the need to touch it once; its a perfect blend of warmth & dynamics that I couldn't achieve with the EL-34's. Tubes were purchased from the Tubedepot, they arrived in 2 days and were very helpful on the phone. However, 2 of them were running a little hot (715-720 range), so I freaked and called Paul, who was very good about walking me thru the setup, tubology 101, and assuring me that they would run fine. As you can probably tell, I'm new at this stuff, so it's nice to have a real pro to call when you need help. |
Strongly agree with Metslp, the TAD-60 is a great piece of equipment. I too switched out the EL-34s for some KT-88s (Electro Harmonix) and I couldn't be happier. The 88s displayed an overall improvement right away, but sounded so much better after settling in - bass is totally on a different level now. However, Metslp has me curious, so I think I'll be trying a quad of Shuguangs soon. I'm new to the tube scene, but I love that you can improve or change the sound with a modest investment.
This is somewhat unrelated, but I would appreciate hearing from other TAD-60 owners as to what CD player or turntable they currently use or would like to purchase. I'm new to vinyl, but I was leaning towards a Rega P5 or VPI Scoutmaster; for the Cd player, a Jolida JD-100 or Shanling 100. I currently have no true cd player, I'm using an X-box - pls don't laugh - and Apple's Airport to stream my mp3s to my TAD-150 preamp. |
Thanks Eagleman. Found quite a few reviews and they all sound good. The folks at Underwood Hifi offer 2 mods, but they seem really expensive. I'm sure rolling in different tubes will probably do the trick. Thanks again. |
I asked Paul the same question earlier today. Here's what he writes: "It appears the bias pots on the 60 do not swing low enough to do the class A mode with larger tubes.
Definitely try with 34's. So far all are really liking the A sound. Could try quasi-A mode - setting the bias low as possible on one 88, maintaining ~700 on the other. This will offer similar results, just not as ideal. Another twist - try running an 88 at 700 and a 34 at 175. Who knows this might even be better." Paul mentions a 700 reading in his reply because 2 of my KT88 are reading at 710. So it appears that you can't do it with KT88s unless you're willing to mix them in with a pair of EL34s. I'm going to try it tonight. I'll let you know how it goes. Btw, has anyone tried the Class A bias with all EL34s? |
Ok. So I rolled in the stock EL34s at V1 & V3 matched with my EH KT88s as suggested by Paul, and I've listened to about 20 songs (some on cd some on vinyl) that i know very well, and the first thing i noticed was that the highs were a bit rolled off; you could say a little warm or softer. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing because the EH KTs can sound bright. The bass has nice punch, and the mids are lush and defined (just like having all 88s in), but the added warmth of the highs makes for a different and pleasant setup. Its not better, just different. Also this setup makes for a friendlier volume control. I have the TAD150 pre, and set between 9-10:00 it has good definition now. With all 88s, I was at high volumes with the dial at 10-11:00. Not cool when the wife and kids are sleeping. Yeah, i sneak in late night listening. I'm going to try the Class A setup with all EL34s next, and then i think I'm going to get those Penta KT88s. After that I'm going to chill for a while cause all this new vinyl is killing my budget - got a an MMF-7 (first table ever) and I'm loving it. |
Dave,
Place the EL34s in the V1 & V3 sockets (bias low, eg 175), the KT88s or other large tube in the V2 & V4 sockets (bias high >=500). Mine are set at about 705. I'll do some more critical listening over the weekend, but so far I like what i hear. I will probably live with it for a few days before trying all EL34s in the Class A setup.
Lou |
I've tried the class A setup with a mix of 34s and 88s, but wanted to hear how they would sound with all 34s, so last night i made the switch. Gotta admit, i couldn't really tell the difference. The bottom was maybe a little softer (very subjective here), but better than the non-class a setup for sure. The mids and highs were very similar to the mixed tube setup, that is too say lush, airy and right on. At low volumes it was almost hypnotic; the definition and mids were that good. Most of my listening was on vinyl; genre was classic rock, blues & jazz. Overall, I think I like the all 88 setup best (albeit without the class A bias), but that could be because it was such a jump from the stock 34s at the time. I guess what impressed me most about the all 88 setup (too much tube rolling can be a bad thing) were the dynamics and balance of highs and lows. However, I do like the class A setup, and will stick with all EL34s (mids are the best) for now until I can afford (and my wife lets me) purchase 88 Pentas, or dare I dream, a quad of Telefunken or Genelax Gold Lions. Yeah, I got the bug.
PRE-AMP: TAD-150 Signature
SPEAKERS: Onix Ref 3
SUB: Rocket UFW-12
TABLE: MMF-7 |
Just wanted to share a tweak that has made a HUGE difference; Herbie's Hal-o Dampers http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net.
Wasn't expecting much, but I couldn't believe how much microphonic smear and noise my tubes were emitting until I slipped these on the power and pre tubes. The sound stage went silent and clarity/separation were night & day. And talk about controlled tight bass. My jaw was on the floor. It's like having new gear. Seriously. Can't say enough good things about them. Best of all, they're affordable, and you get a 90 day trial. Some folks on the web have commented that dampers also dampen music, but I did not find that to be the case. Things are more musical and enjoyable than ever. Play some busy passages loud and be prepared to smile. |
I've been rolling the pre tubes and was wondering if anyone has tried an NOS BugleBoy long plate cause it's the one ax7s I haven't tried. Btw, if you haven't tried swapping the pre amp tubes, you're missing out. The change is HUGE. In fact, had I known I would have started there first instead of the power tubes. Lately, I'm running the 34s in Class A mode, but i have a quad of Penta solidplate 88s in waiting. Anyway, I tried quite a few NOS tubes in the center position, but found the ax7 variety to be best (just punchier and bigger soundstage) and settled on the Mullard sound; great mids, lush but not too much (imo), well extended, nice bass, and of course, warm, but not too tubey. The Mullard is a 10M, but I have a longplate coming tomorrow - I'll let you all know how it goes. Been wanting to try a Bugleboy long plate, but the eBay prices get crazy and rolling tubes in of itself can get crazy too, so I'm trying to ease up. In general, the TAD-60 out of the box is awesome (drives my Onix Ref 3s just right), but its nice to know that it can be tweaked, and the changes are more than subtle. Has anyone else tried rolling the preamp tubes? If so, please share :) Btw, if you'd like to try a nice NOS tube that won't break the bank, the RCA blackplate with the square getter ('50 - early 60s) was really nice. Great mids, mid/highs were very detailed, and bass was punchy but controlled. Overall, a great tube, but with my speakers it was little edgy. Oh yeah, as for the au7s, i settled on Telefunken au7s. For the most part i didn't notice much change in rolling here and I tried some RCA cleartops w/ gray plates, too. But i left the Teles in, just cause they're Teles. |
Eagleman, in the the u7 slots, Paul suggests keeping u7s. I'm using RCA cleartops, but have some Telefunken's i like to use as well. The greatest difference in sound comes from the swapping the x7 position. I'm currently using a GT "Mullard" reissue, but i've also tried a Mullard 10M (nice tube, but too bloomy & boomy for me), an RCA 5751 blackplate (really like this one and 5751 in general, yeah I read Joe's Tube Lore), and a Mullard x7 long plate, which has great warm mids, and nice bass. I've also tried a Tele u7 and Tele t7 in the center position, and find the t7 pushes the mids too forward for my taste. The u7 has nice seperation and clarity but lacks the presence of a t7 or x7. I also found the highs were rolled off a bit. One nice thing about the "relaxed" sound stage of the u7 was that you could turn up the volume and things didn't get messy; seperation and clarity remained. Have fun.
Lou |
Scooby, the 10M was the first tube I rolled into the x7 slot (paid $150 on ebay, seems to be the going price) and overall I found it too be very warm and smooth, especially the mids. The low end was deep but not boomy, but the highs (while not bad) were not as sweet as you'd find in a Tele x7 or Raytheon 5751. Overall, a great tube if you're system is in need of a "warming" influence. If that's the sound you seek, you may want to save some cash and go for a regular Mullard short plate (which is what the 10M is only "hand selected for balance, yada, yada) and move on from there before laying out some serious cash. The GrooveTube x7 (a current production) that is supposedly modeled after the Mullard shortplate is a really nice tube (cheap too) but its much more dynamic and lively (not as warm and creamy) as the 10M. If you can get deal on one, I'd also try a Mullard longplate.
Lou |
The Tele smooth plate was the better of the two for me (more extension and vibrant) but in general I wasn't impressed with either. I think unless you spend big bucks to go for the ECC variants of Teles, you're money is best spent elsewhere. I thought the Mullards (longplate), Raytheon 5751, RCA 5751, & Sylvania 5751 (all 3mica bp) were superior and offered a huge improvement when compared to the Teles. I also liked the Groovetube which is supposedly based on the Mullard shortplate. I have ECC801s (the t7) in the TAD150 and they are absolutely stellar so I'm not a Tele hater. And if the ECC803s (the x7) weren't super expensive I'd have demoed them, too. The x7 I finally settled on for TAD60 (no joke my shopping is done) is the Sylvania. This tube is everything folks say it is. A close second is the Raytheon. The Sylvania edges it out with its awesome mid-range. |
The 6CA7s from Paul are da BOMB! Get them. I have them setup in Class A mode and totally agree with previous comments. Tight, deep bass, extended highs (not harsh), and huge soundstage. Big improvement. You won't miss the KT88 or the lushy mids of the EL34s. They do need sometime to break in but you'll notice it (kinda jumps out at you) after @ 20hrs, but really start to settle in after 50. And get them from Paul because he really does matching, and having an extra tube always helps.
Lou |
Swapping out the x7 makes the most dramatic change. I like the Sylvania 3mica blackplates which is 5751 with a bit less gain, but oh so nice; especially mids, but bass and highs are great too. The u7s make less of a sonic head turning difference, but a difference none the less. Better NOS tubes will clean things up and provide greater transparency. I like the RCA cleartops. If you can find them under the Conn label (made for Baldwin organs and well made) get them cause they're typically cheaper. I also recently tried a JJ/Tesla E80CC which has a slightly bigger load than u7s (Paul ok'd them) so overall they are a bit more forward, and a nice cheap alternative if you can't find the cleartops. Btw, i also tried Telefunkens & Mullards (not cheap), but really preferred the cleartops - much easier to come by which is nice when tube rolling. I'm loving the 6CA7 and do not plan on switching. I particulary like them in UL mode. Didn't think I would cause my speakers a bit forward, but right now I'm listening to Wilco's Being There LP (180gram) and its really sweet. Enjoy. |
