Road trip to demo $10,000 speakers

Why is there so much used gear for sale?

Because people ask silly questions, listen to countless worthless recommendations and purchase based on them or 10 minute showroom demos in an environment totally unlike their own.

A lot of $10k speakers are a joke. Several mentioned here failed on multiple levels either due to bad design, poor setup or electronic mismatch.

The probability of assembling an SoA system schlepping a bag load of CDs all over the countryside is vanishingly small.

One needs 3 diverse tracks to evaluate a system, assuming one knows for what to listen. Mine:
1. Ruby Baby - Donald Fagan. Original CD.
2. Mornin’ - Al Jarreau. Original CD
3. Underture from Tommy. Original CD
Most don’t make it through 2.

Many newer CDs are vastly inferior to the original release. They are digitally processed copies of poor transfers or digitally processed multiple times. Ditto tracks on Tidal. Ditto some audiophile CDs.

Never forget we are building a system. All the research in the world is not worth a 30s listen.

IF the OP is serious, he should make appointments for a system in his total price and parameter range [ total DoReMi, speaker size, integrated/separates, CD/streamer, etc.]. The system should be properly setup as best the shop can make it. The room should be of similar size, layout and treatment to the OPs. If a shop is unwilling to do this for a $40k+ [assuming reasonable system dollar apportionment for $10k speaker] sale, move on. Accept no apologies as to why the sound is sh.tty. Just leave.

IF the OP finds something, he should get an in-home evaluation. Expect to pay return shipping.

Everything else is just wa…..

I’d appreciate your honest recommend on exact models

skyscraper, I could not presume. I know next to nothing about your environment, level you listen, range of programme AND your particular peccadillos.

For example, minimum phase error from sub 30Hz up is ne plus ultra for yhs. Accurate sound staging, rock solid focus that does not wander, accurate hall delineation, merciless exposure of recording engineer gimcrackery, proper vertical height and location. See http://www.ieLogical.com/Audio and read the Audio pages under PASSIONS menu.

Many models recommended here fail miserably in that regard. Multiple woofer/mid drivers and mid & tweeters on a flat baffle fail impossibly on that metric. Ported systems have horrible low end phase coherence.

Since retiring, I’ve made several road trips having avoided HiFi Dens for 15 years. I have a friend with an amazing B&W 803 D3 system north of $250k. No dealer had a pair setup that came anywhere near exhibiting their potential.

One loudspeaker mentioned has a "perforated phase-aligning lens" over mid and tweet. The $12.5k model failed miserably on phase coherence, sound stage and imaging.

Another $8k 2-way had the kick image smeared along a front to back slope. The point was in front of the speakers and the heft behind and out of phase! Vocal was an indistinct cloud. I recorded and mixed ref #2 above and have listened to it for 35 years.

Many here will poo-poo my modest system. It fails not on my parameters because has been assembled with specific goals.

My recommendation would be to have the ’squids rebuilt, get some great electronics that mate them well and match your bias. Decent cables would be nice. So would a pair of good subs - NOT PORTED!!! See http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/SubTerrBlues.php for trials and tribulations of sub integration.

Bonne chance!

skyscraper,
We have somewhat similar spaces and taste. Additionally, I have a penchant for classical and opera. My room is a bit larger with bamboo flooring and several large thick wool area rugs.

Since Heyser in the early 70's my mantra has been "It's not the frequency. It's the time." Sadly the trade rags never focused much on it and once valid publications have devolved into manufacturer cheering sections. Consequently, most of the public is ignorant of phase defects and proper solutions are labor intensive and tend to be 'unconventional'

I loved Quad ESL but limited level and frequency response at both ends disqualified them. Dayton-Wrights were sonically great, of questionable longevity and ZERO WAF.

DQ-10's were my first phased speakers. I mirror-imaged them and modified the XOver to adjust low end response as I had them on stands.
In the mid-70s, 'squids were about $1k. Adjusted for inflation, about $3500 today. Admittedly, the 'squids were little more than utility build and many of today's are gorgeous. However, I'm not buying furniture. Many 3- & 4-way systems have egregiously worse phase response than a $1k 2-way. They go lower and may play louder but for fail miserably on image specificity.

If I still owned DQ-10s, I'd rebuild / have them rebuilt. See http://www.regnar.com/dahlquist-dq-10-speaker-parts.html Replacement of electrolytic and mylar caps with polypropylene will astound. I'd probably add a DQ-89w or two. See http://www.regnar.com/dq-89w-powered-subwoofer-features.html

I cannot listen to MP3s on my system due to nebulous image gallivanting. Any system where any instrument or voice moves regardless of program complexity is disqualified. Listening to uncompressed source in demos of Magico, Focal, Paradigm, KEF and others suffer these defects in multiple salons, so I conclude the defects are natal.

Reticent as I am to recommend, were I to require loudspeakers I'd hear Vandersteens, [see https://vandersteen.com/support/faqs/ and http://greenmountainaudio.com/speaker-time-phase-coherence/ for decent comments on time and phase], Wilson, some B&W, Carver ALS, Magnepan, Martin Logan. There are certainly others. Not sure I would own large planars again, but I would have to hear them. Others with varying parameter requirements will surely howl in protest.

Were I in the market, I might start here: Kii Three https://www.kiiaudio.com/for_home.php sold in the US at GTT Audio https://gttaudio.com/ and reviewed here https://www.stereophile.com/content/kii-audio-three-loudspeaker.

Be very sceptical of manufacturer claims. Many are just plain flat out wrong from an electrical perspective. For example some tout first order slopes for summing. However, that is only valid with drivers that perform identically for at least a couple of octaves above and below the xo frequency AND have physically aligned drivers. Vertical flat baffle? Fogedaboudit!

IMO, the whole small footprint, multi woofer tower on a vertical baffle is fundamentally wrong unless every driver has DSP control AND sophiticated alignment equipment. Ditto vertically mirrored drivers.


Sadly, most forum recommendations are fan-boy ravings, some even by those who don't possess, just lust.

I interpreted your post to mean you recorded and mixed Al J

yes

...since 1977 chasing time and phase and doing it scientifically...

As were recording studios. Our large monitors were designed for the room, set and aligned with precision that would make most audiophiles envious. Ditto small monitors on stands to orient in 3d. Phase and time aligned for the best imaging. Coherence was king.

And manufacturers. Deane Jensen transformers and mic pre’s using them designed for minimum group delay. Rupert Neve, George Massenberg, Roger Nichols, Alan Sides et al all trying to bring the same sound to both sides of the glass.

For the technically inclined, this was interesting reading. It’s a 14-part series on designing a recording console from the early 80’s. http://www.vintagewindings.com/gen%20pop/8299543VW8335/ProAudio1/Steve%20Dove%20Console%20Design.pdf

Most systems totally destroy the imaging and layering crafted into the mixes. Some denigrate pop recordings because they are not the same as an acoustic live performance. They were never intended to be!! Any system that can unravel the references mentioned can handle ANY other program be it opera, full orchestra, mono 40’s big band, acoustic anything with aplomb.

Salesmen, reviewers and audiophiles blather on about balance, focus, imaging never having heard a system that can reproduce what’s actually on the disc.

Most playback is so unbelievably and egregiously incoherent as to be unlistenable. The brain can easily adjust for frequency anomalies but it has no delay lane or early machine to time align the foot’s point* with the heft* when they arrive asynchronously.
* point is beater hitting head and heft is the ’weight’ of the sound of a kick drum. We often took the front head off and stuffed the bottom with a packing blanket to achieve the desired sonics. Selected mic placed [angle and distance] with precision rivalling cartridge alignment. Different drummer, drum, head, studio all required specific mic and treatment. Good systems easily delineate the differences.

...most audiophile dedicated rooms are sterile beyond belief including the forest of reflective gear planted between speakers and a barrier to actually using the turntable...

a-effing-men!

Jon Dalhquist knew that It’s not the frequency. It’s the time!

A "live performance" only counts if it is unamplified. Otherwise, depending on equipment and skill of the sound engineer, the results can be from awesome to gawd awful.

In an acoustic live performance, instruments are easily localized, focused and have the appropriate scale. Sections do not expand and contract or perambulate. If one listens to MP3, that is exactly what happens due to phase errors. This should not happen with uncompressed program but all too often does. The denser the material the more confused it becomes.

People drink CharBux, but it's an extremely poor excuse for coffee.

As my dear old Nan was wont to say, "There's no accounting for taste"

@ otinkyad - What is it you don't like about the current setup? When navigating the swamp a while back, the [hate the name] Golden Ear Triton series were only bested by B&W 800 D3s & dual REL subs.

Which Hsu sub do you have? [ported is a NoNo]
How is it crossed over to the 7's?
Location relative to the 7's?
Room size?

I heard the References, 2+ and the 7s. Family resemblance was good.

I don't think the Hsu sub would be a good match in your room and layout.

IMO, the key to great imaging with a sub is to have good phase linearity for seamless integration. Without a crossover to roll the lows out of the 7s, a continuous phase control on the sub and freedom to place optimally, it's well nigh impossible.

Additionally, the LF processing maybe playing havoc with the 2ch playback.