Viridian
Given that any structure has a resonant signature, the question then becomes not, "which is the most dead" but "at what frequencies are the resonances in the structure and what is the amplitude, magnatude, and Q of those resonances?" +1 Excellent Viridian One example of this. "Granito is a material composed by little pieces of marble of very different origin agglomerated inside a mold with cement. Machined and polished. The resonance of the plinth with its suspension is about 5Hz and it is well absorbed by the air cavities" Mr. J.C. Verdier (R.I.P) in describing the Verdier Vintage La Platine Granito. Along with La Vintage Platine, I also "still" own two full plinth TT's, My 100 lb Jean Nantais Lenco, and an SP10MKII that can actually be put in one of two configurations. 1) A Full Plinth - 70 lb Multi 6 Layer Birch/ One layer MDF or 2) a Rigid (in your words ParrotBee) Skeletal Plinth.(both plinths which are DIY sourced and put together). The SP10mkII is sort of a pet project going way back now. fwiw I prefer it in its Rigid Skeletal Plinth form. It is more neutral sounding. |
Dgarretson
Ct0517 and RichardKrebs, have you considered filling the webbed aluminum casting of an SP-10 with a dense hard mixture of industrial epoxy and crushed granite(similar to Verdier) or brass powder? This might give the casting the properties of a massive plinth, while performing in conjunction with a rigid skeletal "plinthless" sub-frame. @Dgarretson Hi Dave - did not realize you picked up a SP10MKII. another TT ? Filling the webbed aluminum casting sounds like a good idea. But when you say "plinthless" with my set up it is not the case. if i can backtrack. I got to about Version 8 with my SP10 project (two + years ago?) The plinth can be seen as the black base that the stainless steel columns and pod are bolted into. It has not been touched in a long time. I admit its looking kind of stale and I always meant to replace the current black base with a more aesthetic one. This hobby is very much an exercise of Function over Form for me. The tonearm attached to the POD is a leading example of this. If for some reason one "hears" a mismatch in resonances, the ET2 provides resonances tuning capability. If I had continued with the SP10 I had thought of maybe dropping its black pants and have a look at how things can be cleaned up. I discussed with Richard Krebs, sending it to him long ago. I have also though of maybe give the SP10 some balls ? however.... as I am really enjoying not reporting to a boss (wife not included) I need to be selective with funds for the hobby as I have two 20 years olds grabbing cash at every opportunity. Its not a priority and the sp10 is in room 2. All my vinyl listening is on La Platine in room one. fwiw (sorry to digress Parottbee) My turntable phase was a very slippery slope for me. It came at a time when I needed something to take my mind off other things. I am very grateful for it and I learned much with my SP10MKII. I am happily a music lover these days, with no desire to tinker, although I don't mind talking shop on the forums and discussing past experiences. I did have at the height of my own personal madness - three tables, modded VPI TNT ( thread drive), SP10MKII and Nantais lenco table (which btw used to be his personal table), all next to one another like babies in a nursery. I had the same tonearm / cartridge going with two of them at a time, and it was alot of fun comparing to 15 IPS master tape dubs - very revealing. Back to the thread theme if I can just say that discussing the type of plinth is only one aspect of this. The platter system is very important. For example the Jean Nantais here is what the platter looks like I have a copper mat I can use with the technics. The Verdier however again sets the mark - a solid aluminum platter designed to be used Naked. With the magnetic levitation the natural action of magnets producing a braking action. So you have acceleration inertia and and braking due to the opposed pole magnets to deal with the records behavior. Add to this a solid aluminum rigidly attached pod, a different material brass spindle to interact separately from the platter. oh yeah also no bearing....... Just bloody brilliant. Continually amazed by the simplicity of it. In all my years at this hobby probably the best thing I have acquired right there with my SP11 (and my records) Henry - Lewm seems to showing (again) what we in Canada refer to as - possible signs of cabin fever. I could be wrong . But if I am not mistaken there have been some bad snow storms in the US lately. :^) God, these analog threads make the digital ones seem SO BORING....... no more coffee for me. :^( Cheers |
Its an illusion Henry, just like the hanging balls on my SP10. In the back is a door, it opens up to a beer fridge. A beer fridge for now. It will double as his coffin when the time comes. This is the only reason his wife allowed it in the house. :^) I am surprised by your picture of the Victor that you only teased us with a glimpse of what is next to it. The now famous Canadian. In an obvious skeletal multi layer plinth. I do appreciate the added 'warm and fuzzy' feeling this can impart together with the ability to mechanically fix the tonearm pods if their weight is insufficient....but apart from that.. right now in the middle of this cold winter - warm and fuzzy is sounding real good to me. Parottbee - I found it a bit too warm for my tastes. Why is it too Warm?If we look at the bottom left side of the graph warmth is shown in the 150 - 250 hz range. We all have our own personal tastes, different types of music we like to listen to. If I am with a friend setting up a system and they say something sounds too warm. I am assume it means an over emphasis in this 150-250 frequency range. You can have too little bass and it will over emphasizes the highs, or too much bass and things start getting muddy real quick. Get the bass right and everything will fall into place. With vinyl (due to different resonances, vibrations) you can mess things up really easy; but you can also fix things up as well. The warmth can be fixed a number of ways. Two ways that might work. Raising the VTA a bit (or) assuming the speaker/amplifier relationship is a compatible one, adjusting the speaker location to the room boundary; or maybe just their angle depending on type of speaker to balance out the sound. If a guy (no woman audiophile would do this?) has 500 lb speakers. What are the chances of him moving the speakers around for adjustment to the best music from different turntables. Some tables produce music that is weightier, heavier, a fleshier sound. There is more meat on the bones. My direct experience in my room, La Platine is one of these tables. It can easily over power the room with too much bass and be out of control. There is a learning curve with it. Also imo just for thought. These public chat forums are no different than a bunch of guys getting together for a night of poker. There are different games to play. Some games have cards showing others don't. Some on Audiogon here are showing all their cards (virtual system) others none. Showing a list in a virtual system is one thing. Showing a room picture showing speakers and walls is the real deal. Showing this info allows for a better sharing of info and learning - Dave G - WOW Big News. This audio business is crazy. As far as a I know no one is getting rich on it, and it is IMO all about audio passion. You have my utmost respect for entering it like everyone else. I have been asked to become a dealer 4 times. I turned them all down for personal reasons. Wonder how many professionals (manufacturers, dealers, distributors, special interest individuals) are on this thread so far ? Hmmmm... Cheers |
02-09-15: Pryso
Halcro, do you have any idea how that tower plinth builder now has access to bolt/unbolt the motor unit or change wire with the tonearm if necessary?
Form does not seem to follow function?!? Pryso If indeed there is a beer fridge in there. then it is Function over Form |
Dgarretson
have you considered filling the webbed aluminum casting of an SP-10 with a dense hard mixture of industrial epoxy and crushed granite(similar to Verdier) or brass powder?
Parrotbee
With regards to filling in the SP10 - Can I just suggest that you are a bit careful - why not try some lightweight damping such as acoustic foam first of all - what frequencies are you trying to damp? Many times you don't know what frequencies, until you hear something better (in your own room) and it could be anywhere in the frequency range. Had the TNT at the time. Brought in the SP10. The SP10 did one thing better. I changed the TNT to match it in that area. Brought in the JN Lenco. It did something better than the TNT and the SP10 in my room, so I adjusted both of them to be better. The adjustments were many to the TNT and SP10 back and forth and the cycle continued. The JN Lenco is the only TT I never touched, and if you own one you know why. The thing has no reason to sound good when you look at how a base stock Lenco TT is put together. The only thing good about it is the motor. But JN as one example, has built many versions and learned along the way. One thing that is not obvious with it, are the purpose voids built into the the plinth around the motor/top plate and the armboards. You need to look at it from upside down to understand what I mean. His table is Function over Form and the result of many adjustments to plinth and motor. I thought about building one after the SP10 then this one just kind of fell into my lap. Anyone thinking they can just make a giant plinth and drop a Lenco into it and call it a day ...well I better stop what I was going to say. Because they can do just this it. Once you have done this do a close compare to a Nantais Lenco. The DD SP10 and I assume the Denons, Victors, etc... are different. They are self contained units. Like I said if I was curious and had time and money I would start taking it apart. Mine came from a private studio and was never in a radio station. I actually had two one at one time; one was down in the city when I was spending alot of time there. When you are Laborataire Verdier there are many tools, people, etc... at your disposal to investigate and analyze. Go through all the proper project management phases. When you are moi...it is different. I used to say to myself ...hmmmm looks like a hole / space there. Wonder what would happen if I filled it ? When an audiophile based on theory alone, said don't do that, its not right because of xxxxxxx, but showed no real direct experience with it himself...... ..Hell..the more reason to go and do it. You said a few interesting things about the Platine, because the base is very much made of a similar material, by the sound of it, as the Technics Obsidian Bases or the Sony Reisinamic Plinths - both of which use 'resins and stones'. I had the Obsidian base - I sold it to a "collector". Its a glass plinth - apples to oranges comparison with the La Platine's Granito base which is non-resonant. One time I filled the four pillars of the TNT with Blue Tac. see the bottom picThe music became like it was coming from down under and I don't mean Aus and Nz. I mean the place where the horned one lives. where it is always very hot, The good thing from this experiment was I have so much Blue Tac now that I re-package it and give it out as Christmas gifts to audiophiles. 1,325 uses so far for it. Did you know you can clean your stylus on it? Well some stories ...do share guys cheers |
should have waited till I was fully awake and finished my coffee before I hit submit.
sorry for the errors - extra words that don't belong.
A case of mind and fingers not in sync yet.
LOL - to edit the post in this forum database, would seriously throw out my carefully thought out paragraph alignments. :^)
l am going for my run instead. |
Parrotbee
This is a tad unfair given that you don't know what I do do, and what else I have built and fiddled with. Hi Parrotbee I didn't mean yourself when I said. I used to say to myself ...hmmmm looks like a hole / space there. Wonder what would happen if I filled it ? When an audiophile based on theory alone, said don't do that, its not right because of xxxxxxx, but showed no real direct experience with it himself...... ..Hell..the more reason to go and do it. I didn't even know of you up until last week ? Sorry for the confusion. I was referring to others in past dealings on this forum - like some of the debates on the Copernican thread. It think it really goes back to my poker game analogy and cards showing. We would all benefit imo in knowing more about yourself/experiences being the OP but its your choice obviously. fwiw - My cards are all showing. In fact if you have read the ET2 thread and my system thread you probably know some things about me that my wife doesn't even know. The strangest/worst thing one can do is fill up a plinth with some type of permanent resin, and then be unable to remove it, or indeed sell the component due to the over-enthusiastic 'intervention/innovation' I agree and Blue tac(k) is reversible. In fact I can if I wanted take down the SP10 in its current config and set it up in a full plinth in one day. I have been searching for pictures of the different stages of plinth build I did. But they were taken with my old Blackberry (fwiw - A POS Canadian company that I lost money on -sorry for the rant). If they show up on a hard drive somewhere will post them. this thread brings back a lot of ANALogue memories. Personally am intrigued over your moniker. I think it is really cool. Does it have meaning behind it ? Cheers |
02-10-15: Timeltel
---Just an enthusiasts' mutterings amidst the opinions of
experts. Hi Timeltel (professor) - I am a music lover / part time audiophile. If I have a question regarding cartridges, your posted opinions are the ones I look for. You are a cartridge expert in my view. Please excuse my grammar in this morning's post :^( |
Cool - I like parrots, and try to avoid bees, but understand their importance on earth. I remember going at it pretty good with Dertonarm on that Copernican thread. He made no sense to me at all. No sense of humor at all, and he was always arguing against armpods. Then I discovered his own Apolyt table used armpods. Henry, I'd insert some emoticons here showing utter amazement, but alas my Lenovo Windows 7 laptop is incapable of doing this. :^( |
Silence killed the comic....
and apparently this thread :^(
The good news is Sunny weather, with above 0 celsius temps are in the forecast which should mean an end to the cabin fever rants.
Happy listening. |
Halcro
I must be dreaming....... let us know if you hear the song - I Got U BABE when u wake up ..... Lewm
(call it "arm pod drag"). LOL - Good one Lewm. Learn something new every day. Kind of sounds like a new dance to me ? Ok everybody off your asses and onto the dance floor, Lets all do the arm pod drag .... You shuffle across the floor with the front leg leading (closest to the TT)).... the back leg dragging... |
Audiogon log - Feb 11 - about 9:30 am EST. Time has clearly moved I have been transported to the next day - but its the same cold dreary looking winter day. As I sit down with my morning JAVA instead of logging onto to Banks lifeline to see if money still exists to pay the pile of bills that are in front of me, I am compelled to log on here to see if time really has moved on. There, a phenomena has occurred - I have been transported back in time to the Copernican thread. I am feeling like Bill Murray in Ground Hog dayBut wait. It is a little different this time. Some of the people are still the same,; but some are different. And there is a difference this time. Yes, its there. A sense of humor among the players. There is hope. Base on this glimmer of hope instead of stepping away and going about by business I am compelled to add more to the madness. ******************************************************************************************* Halcro/Richard et al Well everything is indeed moving around me yet I am grounded to the earth, and even though It appears to be still, giving me a sense of calm, there are signs of movement all around. Sun position in the sky and its physical effect on my body temp. So this is real indeed. Back to the fascinating turntable which we must now break into its main parts to make my point. Firstly I don't own a Timeline and never will because its information is only measuring one aspect of record play - some info on the table speed itself. It is not providing data on how the stylus is moving/vibratiing. It is not providing data on tonearm movement (up and down, left and right as it tracks the record) Am I wrong ? Now Richard that was an interesting post you made. Way back in high school we were tasked with this question..
What happens when you throw a snooker ball such that it hits the front of an oncoming train. The answer is that the train slows, and with relative weights and speeds, we were able to calculated how much. Looks like you are comparing linear speed versus rotational speed of a record player. Based on this formula linear versus rotational speed calculator lifted from the internet, are you able to do your calculation and tell us what the movement really is ? I was always terrible at formula in school. Here is a crazy thought... could this movement you are referring to, be temporary (out of shape movement) like when vinyl heats up when played, and they it cools down and goes back to form ? Hmmmm..... What do you think ? How else to explain that an armpod after extended time and play still rests on the same spot ? back to those bills soon. Just one more question. I will ask Richard but welcome comments from everyone. The record for sake of argument spins at constant speed 33.3 - 45 rpm. this means its outside speeds are faster, with bigger grooves to track. The inside ones, slower speeds, smaller tighter grooves, more difficult to track. My pivot arms have all made this clear to me - audibly. A CD solves this by varying its speed as it plays. The music starts on the inside groove and goes out. on the inside a CD can spin 200 rpm and as quick as 500 rpm as the laser beam approaches the outside edge. I can't measure this and take the experts word on it. Getting to the question. Richard, back more than two years ago now, your friend Dover presented what he called a POSER on the ET2 thread. I ask you how measurable is this movement you allude to; and can its effect on the music be considered the same as what follows. Maybe ....the human ear can't detect it - which would mean for this "audio hobby" it is irrelevant ? Help, my Pivot Arm is Running too Fast
08-13-12: Dover
Ct0517 - I would not run an ET downhill, but I get the overhang argument.
NOW HERE IS ANOTHER POSER to ponder :
With a pivoted arm we have an overhang. The pivot arm/stylus tip moves in an arc, which means that for every 1.8 seconds ( 1 rotation ) the stylus tip has actually moved slightly forward with each rotation.
Put another way if you put the stylus tip in the first groove, and draw a tangent to the spindle centre, then with each rotation the stylus tip will move further ahead from that tangent.
This means that to achieve the correct playback speed, with a pivoted arm, then the TT needs to speed up with each rotation.
This means that the only playback system that is accurate in terms of speed is in fact a linear tracker.
Now...thoughts...
Dover (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
OPINIONS welcome ? |
This armpod definitely moves That is a 50cms/dyne x 10 (-6) cartridge on a JMW 12 tonearm. Theoretically it has no business on this tonearm and in fact this cartridge was not playable (too high compliance) when it was played on the same arm on my full plinth TT. Just saying...make what you want from it. I believe the Symposium jrs, managed to sink resonances. The result here was music that was quite listenable. A long time ago. My son 16 at the time is the camera man and gave me all of 10 minutes of his time to put cartridge on and do the test. Could not find a needed cartridge bolt washer so I improvised. Pls excuse the crude setup of cartridge. I now realize I should of just set the camera on the armpod and left it there. |
Richardkrebs "The song, I got U BABE".
My dreams, shall we say, are usually more exciting in content. Yes Richard, but I rarely remember the good ones after I wake.......the nightmares ....tend to linger. I Got You Babe the song has some significance for me. I was 3? at the time, but I can still remember seeing this on my parents little circular screen black and white tv for the first time. I believe their show made a lasting impression on me. I say this because when my wife and I got married we went away to Palm Springs. Sonny had a restaurant there. We made a point of having dinner there one night and having our picture taken with him. Charming fellow. We were saddened later, not sure now how much later it was now after we saw him, to learn he had died hitting a tree while skiing. Thanks for the number crunching. |
@RichardKrebs
Richard, I am interested in your impressions of my isolated armpod experiment findings. First post above with a date of 2-12-15
thanks Chris |
02-12-15: Basephysics
A moving armpod will be displayed by the Timeline on a belt-drive turntable and idler both without servo control. Henry.... time to wake up now. We need your help. We need you to pull a volunteer from your Victor "Armpod" team, and have him join forces with your Raven "tonearm fixed to the turntable" team. If he resists, tell him its in the name of Copernican good and the switch will be only temporary - maybe. Well "maybe" leave the "maybe" part out when talking to him. :^) Basephysics - that's quite the moniker. I'm intrigued again, as I was with Parrottbee our OP(Original Poster). Is physics your line of work, hobby interest area ? Now Henry can confirm better, but if I recall he said that the timeline on the Raven turntable moved; but that it moved slowly and consistently. This implied that his turntable although not right at 33.3, maybe a little above (line going --->) this way or below line going (<-----) this way, the speed was still stable. So for purposes of enjoying records - just fine. Is that right Henry or am I blowing smoke out my ears ? Alas I don't own the thing. Also fwiw - based on Richard Krebs train calculations I would be very surprised if any movement can be observed from what is a "normal" situation for that turntable setup with its fixed tonerarm. So I guess it depends on whether Henry is game to play for us to find out ? On a personal note very much looking forward to Timeltel (Professor's) next thread synopsis :^) Cheers |
02-13-15: Parrotbee
Shifting away from the pod part of this thread, I am wondering whether to put together a panzerholz (clearaudio style) sandwich, or even try a different sandwich such as using acrylic instead? What say you? Way back when I found these links helpful... Plinthbuilding Plinths you've probably come across them already.. imo - You need to tackle everything at the 50,000 foot level first. this would imply alot of research which you are doing - good From Timeltel's post on this thread. It would seem the first choice is that of tonearm, the remainder is a matter of tweaking for best outcome. My experiences agree with the Professors's statement. @Halcro, Lewm ....... maybe Copernican 2.......are you game ? I am definitely showing signs of cabin fever ....... |
Hi Parrotbee (PB) regarding those internet links I believe I found them interesting at the time for the material resonance values. that was it. that lenco is the only plinth(less) deck - A plinthless Lenco ? - well even I find that one a little funny. Very different beast than a DD or Belt drive TT. One way to do up a Lenco Jean Nantais believes more mass will only improve the sonics of an idler. His designs focus on high solid mass which leave space around the critical turntable parts. So when you see a JN lenco do not think it is solid all the way through, even though the thing still weighs 100 lbs. "a massive non-resonant structure with voids" in his own words Armpod void Motor void As you can see there are Voids "open space" all the way down and the bottom is open. Hope you and others find the pics useful ? PB - All said and done it's gonna be a mixture of theory and magic... Well I don't have a lot of patience for theory. At least for those that dwell on it with no follow up. I also do not believe in magic. Cheers |
my bad... the first pic link above should read Armboard void. JN defintely does not believe in armpods. Evident from his designs.
A case of Armpod on the brain for me I'm afraid. Wasn't kidding about the cabin fever. ...:^(
|
Not a believer in magic - not even david copperfield? paul daniels? PB actually that's the kind of magic I assumed you meant. Let me qualify a little. I know this kind of 'magic" is all tricks deep down. Oh, oh.....sorry to disappoint anyone reading here that believes in it. (memories of telling my younger brother that Santa Claus was not real just went through me) Well, you did not hear it here..... ok ? I guess this kind of magic just doesn't register as anything memorable and lasting to me. I can't explain it. Maybe my career line of work has conditioned me in a certain way here. How about the Audio Foolery that happens in my/our rooms? I enjoy it greatly and can't live without it as an audiophile. but it is not magic. It can be recreated in other rooms by many others. But the music itself, which even when heard in your car and causes a reaction ...that is a bit of magic to me as a music lover. Now think about this one... how about a comedian? Someone that can go to a foreign country where they speak a different language, have a different culture and values. And then do a show that discusses the same, and makes them laugh in their own house. That..... IS a little bit of Magic to me. Two honorable mentions 4 lb small mouth bass on 2 lb fishing line. When the wife pulls my keys out of her bosom, and allows me to drive my summer car; Even though she makes me take her to go buy ice cream. PB If you can make this cold weather go away. hmmm.... Make it happen first, then I will let you know. |
Henry- in your last post you mentioned your Armpod Clan again.
The Op (PB) is interested in discussing plinths. Skeletal versus Full Plinths.
Stay the course man. Start Copernican 2.
I do however have some new anecdotal evidence for you however.
For the others be warned what follows is not pretty.
You see my almost 20 lb armpod was responsible for beheading my XV1 many years ago.
Yes....that is how I remember it now. And I am sticking to my story. It makes me feel better.
You see, Instead of removing the cartridge (proper) and doing required solder work on the wire lead at the turntable location.
An isolated and quiet area....
I decided out of convenience (laziness) to "bring" the whole pod enchilada with tonearm, cartridge and wiring attached, to my busy work area.
While moving the pod to adjust for a better sight angle, a slight tug was felt.
The nightmare was in play. The well endowed XV1 was toast.
The coldness that followed led to my first out of body experience.
So I bolted the bastard down to not tempt me again. Alas I can't be trusted.
Screw the obvious fact of flexibility in changing out things especially if you are tonearm bi(a)tch.
But I am a one tonearm, one cartridge kind of guy, you know ?
Screw as well the ability to continually refine your alignment for better sound with an armpod.
You see what the ANAL Armpod users don't want to confess to; is that "The Armpod" actually teases you if you don't try this, every week.... month.
And Henry has four of them. Hmmm....
You know, the ANALog pivot arm guys like to play this game where they keep trying new alignments, to try to move the two points on the record that their pivot arm arm can track best at.
Well with the armpod, no movement of cartridge in its shell is necessary to accomplish this.
You just need to become very good at Lewm's Armpod Drag "Dance".
Sorry to digress PB. Alas still waiting for you to do your magic with this cold weather ....
I see NY was at -15 celsius this morning. You know, once it hits -10 celsius it really doesn't matter how much lower it goes.
To get back on track maybe a question out of curiosity.
PB or anyone else.
Does anyone out there still make a full plinth turntable; one with no removable and/or pivoting armboards ?
A full plinth that requires one to drill a hole or tap holes for their tonearm into the beautiful plinth itself.
Imagine the stress level in installing the tonearm ?
Unless its a Dynavector DV505 which has enough weight - by design - to just sit on top of the plinth if you like.
Hey ..maybe this makes it the first armp..... oh oh..there I go again. |
