Hello dbphd, Your username is familiar to me from other threads so please disregard if I’ve given this advice to you previously. I’ve learned through research and personal experience that great bass response for both ht and music can be attained in any room by using a distributed bass array system of 4 subs that are placed not haphazardly or conveniently but positioned in a more strategic and progressive process which I can elaborate on if you’re interested. I utilize a complete all in one DBA system called the Audio Kinesis Debra system that I bought a few years ago for about #3,000. I think both the AK Swarm and Debra systems are still at about $3K with a choice of finishes. However, any 4 subs can be used to create a distributed bass array system with similar results. The only caveat being a need for the room space to accommodate either your 4, or the somewhat smaller Audio kinesis, subs in your room. The key is having 4 subs which almost magically reduces room bass standing waves that results in less room bass nodes in virtually any room if they are located properly. It’s actually based on scientific research done by several PHD acoustical engineers, Dr. Floyd Geddes and Dr. Floyd O’toole and others, I started a couple of threads on these bass systems. Here’s the latest one that you may want to read for further info: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anyone-else-using-an-audio-kinesis-swarm-or-debra-distributed... The beauty of deploying a DBA system is you obtain excellent bass response throughout the entire room without the need for any room treatments, equalization or room correction hardware or software. The Audio Kinesis Swarm system(almost identical to the Debra system) was also reviewed by The Absolute Sound a few years ago. Here’s a link to that review: www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ I can verify that their review is completely accurate to the results I’ve achieved in my system and room. I have absolutely no connections with Audio Kinesis. I’m just a very satisfied customer Tim |
dbphd, Acoustical engineers have proven that bass response performance in any given room improves as the number of subs is increased and that the size of the drivers in the subs is much less important than the actual number of subs in the room. 2 will perform better than 1, 3 better than 2 and 4 or more is just exceptionally good. Of course, these experts realize that there’s a limit to the number of subs consumers will allow in their home rooms; or at least that consumers’ significant others will allow in their home rooms. Through research, they discovered statistically that using 4 subs in a room provided the vast majority of bass performance benefits of using many more subs did while still remaining a feasible number for home use if reasonably sized. In your situation, I’m almost certain that using 4 moderately sized subs would provide significantly better bass response than 2 subs randomly placed with one behind each main speaker. I believe this will hold true irregardless of the price, quality or driver size of the subs you choose based on specific scientific research on this very subject and my personal experience supports this conclusion. If you have a decent sized room and want state of the art bass response, I suggest you at least read the Absolute Sound review of a DBA (link below) so you can make a more informed final decision. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anyone-else-using-an-audio-kinesis-swarm-or-debra-distributed... Best wishes, Tim |
dbphd, Sorry, I linked the wrong link for The Absolute Sound DBA review. Here’s the correct link: www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/audiokinesis-swarm-subwoofer-system/ I also forgot to mention that the Audio Kinesis subs are positioned facing and within an inch of the wall. So all you see of them in the room is the attractive wood you choose covering the top, back and sides of each sub (connections are on the bottom). I use the supplied spikes for each on my carpeted floor. My wife says they look like art gallery pedestals and usually has a vase of fresh flowers atop 1 or more. Tim |
"
Have you tried daisy chaining all four?"
m-db,
No, didn't think there was a need. The Debra system's 1,000 watt amp has 'A" and 'B' sub/speaker output sections, each with its own 'Left' and "Right' sub/speaker outputs, so 4 sub/speaker outputs total. I run separate custom speaker cables to each sub that are routed through the crawl space underneath my room.
Tim
|
m-db,
Okay, I understand now you weren't directing the daisy chaining question to me.
Woops,
Tim |
Hello ejr1953,
Let me get this straight, you bought and installed 2 JL Audio F113V2 Fathom subs, JL's latest and finest that are huge, weigh 133 pounds each and have a msrp of $4,500 each, but were initially greeted with "one note" bass?
I feel for you, brother, that must have felt like a punch in the gut.
Your dealer then added insult to injury and sold you a calibration mic, room correction software and 10 big and expensive bass traps to fix the problem?
You must have the patience of a saint, I'm getting worked up just hearing about it.
I'm sorry, ejr, I know you're pleased now but the Fathoms still seem like an unnecessary compromise in many aspects from my perspective.
Is it too late to just return everything and start from scratch? I can tell you, with a high degree of confidence, that either an Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra bass system would be a significant upgrade from the Fathoms in all respects at a price about $1,500 less than a single Fathom.along with a free 30-day in home trial period.
However, I get the sense that a quality bass system is a much higher priority for you than price. I'm as certain as I can be that either a Swarm or Debra bass system will provide state of the art bass in your room while also eliminating the need for any bass traps, mics or room correction software. I know it will provide the absolute opposite of "one note" bass, the ability to choose your cutoff frequency between 30-200 Hz on the front of the 1,000 watt supplied amp and a choice of wood finishes that actually allows the subs to appear to my wife and I like the art pedestals you often see in the better art galleries.
Tim |
mcreyn:
"
but a vented subwoofer (whether ported, slot load, transmission line, or passive radiator) works just as well or better when properly designed. With decent quality subwoofers, the vast majority of issues people have are room and tuning related, not equipment related."
Well said! I couldn't agree more.
The Swarm and Debra subs are 'vented enclosure for correct roll-off to compensate for room gain (ports can be plugged with supplied plugs, if desired)'. I've tried my Debra subs both ways and preferred them unplugged.
Tim
|
" The Swarm and Debra subs are an excellent example of using science and good acoustic theory to maximize the benefit for the minimum dollar. They have addressed the biggest issue, the room. It can be done with any 4 subs. You should see what some of the crazy home theater guys do, as the Swarm would never have enough deep bass for them (they want 120db @10 hz), things like quad JTR Captivators. Not to plug another forum, but AVSforums in the subwoofer section has some really great information on setup, tuning, and objective reviewing. The home theater guys have done more for good bass than just about anyone."
mcreyn,
Wowie Wow Wow McWoofer.....Testify!
You stated: " The Swarm and Debra subs are an excellent example of using science and good acoustic theory to maximize the benefit for the minimum dollar. They have addressed the biggest issue, the room. It can be done with any 4 subs."
What happened? Did you actually get a personal audition of a distributed bass array (DBA)? In any case, your quote above is an excellent summary of what the Swarm and Debra represent. And, yes, the DBA concept’s ability to transform a room’s bass response using almost any 4 subs is like magic but true, science really is like magic but real.
"You should see what some of the crazy home theater guys do, as the Swarm would never have enough deep bass for them (they want 120db @10 hz), things like quad JTR Captivators. "
I am familiar with the ’crazy home theater guys’ typically loitering at AVSforums and other a/v sites with their brute force approach to reproducing bass in a home environment. However, I have too much respect for the supporting mechanisms and other surfaces in my home to adopt this ’Bringing Down the House’ approach. I can't recall ever desiring more bass listening to any source or content. Besides, the supplied amp has controls for setting the overall level - I can recall tweaking that and the crossover frequency (currently the level is set at about half and cthe rossover at about 40 Hz)
Loud and overpowering is not my conception of ideal bass. My version of ideal bass for my combo ht and music system is more nuanced, having the dual qualities of power and definition required for state of the art bass response reproduction of both.
Tim |
Hello phusis,
Your post was a well written, reasonable and articulate defense of the monster sub setups of some of the AVS forum members.
I like to think of myself as reasonable, open minded and resistant to stereotyping . Your post made me realize that I've seen and read about many of these systems on AVS and other sites in the past but never listened to one in action.
As you constructively pointed out, I believe I was stereotyping these monster sub setups as 'bass by brute force' and dismissing them as not capable of providing both high quality bass power and, simultaneously, high quality bass definition. You've heard some of these monster setups and claim these are built by knowledgeable bass enthusiasts with the skills to attain both impressive bass power and bass definition.
So, I think it's best if I just take your word for the capabilities of these monster setups, thank you for pointing out my stereotyping, try to refrain from doing so in the future and try to get a personal audition of one of these monster bass setups soon.
Thanks,
Tim |
mcreyn’s response to s200cr’s statement about just buying speakers that don’t need subs:
" Why? The best speaker placement for imaging and bass are generally mutually exclusive!!!!! Are you willing to place 4 main speakers around your room at the optimal positions to minimize standing waves (ala a swarm setup)? Show me a full range speaker system that can go flat below 20hz that costs less than $10,000 a pair and is optimized for placement in the bass where the imaging is the best. The system in my office (a used set of Totem Mites and a Rythmik L12 for a total cost of $900) does that comfortably (when I say comfortably, it starts to roll off at 23 hz is and 1 db down at 20hz)."
Great response, mcreyn, I was about to post and make many of the same points before I read your response. I just want to add a few thoughts to further emphasize your thoughts: My opinion and suggestion is to approach the setup of your home audio system as 2 systems: a bass system and a midrange/treble and sound stage illusion system.
The first step is to get the bass sounding right. As I’ve stated previously, I believe buying and properly setting up an Audio Kinesis Swarm or Debra system is the simplest and most reliable method of achieving this if you have the funds ($2,500-3,000) and room space. But, for those on a stricter budget, here are my suggestions for optimizing bass in your room based on number of subs you’re able to afford:
1. No Subs/just the bass drivers in your main speakers- As mcreyn has accurately stated, the best speaker location for both imaging and bass response are highly unlikely, if ever, going to be optimized at the same room position. Full range speakers that contain bass, mid-range and treble drivers all in a single cabinet are, therefore, highly handicapped in their ability to provide good bass response and good imaging right from the get go.
Having a physically separate bass system that seamlessly integrates powerful and well defined bass response with physically separate main speakers system providing high quality mid-range/treble sound reproduction with a realistic sound staging illusion, even if there’s some bass frequency redundancy between the 2 systems, is an alternative solution that is highly superior in my opinion based on experience.
2. One Sub- With a single sub, unfortunately, the bass will be compromised because the bass will only be optimized at a single point in your room (your listening seat sweet spot) and the bass will not sound as good at other spots in your room. To optimally position a single sub, place the connected sub at your listening position/seat and play some content that contains several minutes of good and repetitive bass. Then, starting at the front-right-corner of your room, slowly walk counter-clockwise along the walls of your room until you find the exact spot where the bass sounds best to you. Lastly, locate the sub to this exact spot and then replay the bass content to verify the bass still sounds good to you when your seated at your listening position/seat.
mcreyn, Isuggest you may want to try this in your single sub office system.
3. Two Subs- 2 subs will give better results than a single sub because, if properly positioned, any bass standing waves at your listening position may be reduced or eliminated and each sub is reproducing only a portion of the total content bass. This increases the capacity of bass volume, impact and dynamics/headroom. To optimally setup 2 subs, the one sub setup above is used for sub#1 and then sub#2 is placed at the listening position/seat and the same procedure is used to locate the exact optimum room position, continuing the search from sub#1 along the room walls counter-clockwise.
4. Three Subs- 3 subs will as expected give better results than 2 subs by further increasing the capacity of bass volume, impact and dynamics/headroom. But 3 subs, if properly positioned, will also begin to significantly reduce or eliminate bass standing waves throughout the entire room, beyond just those at the listening position/seat. Walking around the room, specific spots where bass response is perceived as less than optimal will be noticeably fewer with 3 subs when compared to 1 or 2 subs. To optimally set up 3 subs, just follow the procedure for 2 subs above and then sub#3 is placed at the listening position/seat and the same procedure is used to locate the exact optimum room position, continuing the search from sub#2 along the room walls counter-clockwise.
5. Four Subs- 4 subs are required for achieving sota bass response in any room. Acoustical experts have statistically identified that 4 subs in a room as the threshold at which the vast majority of bass standing waves in most rooms are reduced or eliminated, with any additional subs only providing moderate and smaller marginal benefits.
In summary, the more subs you deploy in your room, the fewer bass standing waves will exist in your room and, as a direct result, the better your in-room bass response will sound.
I don’t consider myself a bass expert. I just read all the material I could find on-line and rely on my years of experience of striving for very good bass response in my systems; beginning with no sub and progressing to 1, then 2 and 3. All of my systems sounded very good to me but the bass always seemed compromised to varying degrees.
Then I read scientific White Papers written by a a couple of acoustical scientists, Dr.Earl Geddes and Dr. Floyd O’toole, about their results experimenting with distributed bass array (DBA) systems in commercial and home environments.
It all made good sense to me but I was resistant at first due mainly to the cost and concerns about accommodating 4 subs in my 16 x 23 foot room. But, after discussing at length the Audio Kenisis Debra 4-sub dba system with James Romeyn. owner of James Romeyn Music and Audio in Utah, I decided to to buy the complete Debra system for about $3K with a free 30-day in home trial period.
It took about 4-5 hrs for a friend and I to set it up carefully following the progressive sub positioning method and routing all 4 custom speaker wires in the crawl space below my living room.
Still relying on the concept of building my system as 2 systems, a bass system and a mid-range/ treble and sound stage illusion system, I considered the reproduction of bass frequencies from about 20 to 40 Hz to be solidly in place and providing the foundation for placing the remaining mid-range/treble and sound stage illusion system atop it. I use a pair of older Magnepan 2.7QR 6 x 2 foot panels, driven by a pair of D-Sonic M600M (1,200 watts @ 4 ohms) run full-range for this purpose. Whereas the Debra system provides sota bass response virtually throughout the entire room, the main speakers require careful placement to provide an accurate and musical portrayal of the remainder of the audio spectrum and provide an optimum .sound stage illusion at the specific listening position/seat sweet spot.
A benefit of treating your system as 2 systems is that, once your subs have been positioned, your main speakers can be located completely independently for optimum mid-range/treble response as well as for creating an optimum sound stage illusion. After considerable trial and error experimenting, I was able to locate each panel so that all performance parameters were maximized; this resulted in my panels being locted about 4 ft. away from my front 16 ft. wall, spread about 7 ft. apart on center and slightly toed-in angling toward and straddling my listening chair about 14 ft. away centered n my rear 16 ft. wall.
We initially auditioned it on ht by playing a Bluray copy of the movie Fury, a WWII tank film with Brad Pitt. Our first indication of how exceptionally well this system reproduces bass was during the opening trailers of a soon to be released movie on Bluray, Whiplash, that contained a solo drum soundtrack, recorded direct to digital and played back at 24 bit/96 Khz hi-resolution .digital through my Oppo 105 Bluray player., that was a driving beat that built to a final crescendo that had my friend and I staring at each other in disbelief with how spectacularly real and ’right there in the front center of the room’ the drum kit was perceived to be by both of us.
The WWII tank and heavy machine gun battle scenes in the movie, Fury, were also portrayed, with the assistance of my 5 other full range speakers in Dolby Digital 5.1 (5.4?)Surround Sound format, in an extremely realistic manner.
After the movie, we also auditioned a wide variety of music stored as 16 bit/ 44 Khz files of ripped CDs and some hi-res 24 bit/96 Khz WAV music files,stored on my NAS hard drive.
I find the entire music listening experience as being very immersive, with the width and depth of the sound stage illusion varying slightly in size, stability and overall realism depending on recording. I’ve noticed those recorded direct to hi-res digital are generally significantly superior in all 3 of these qualities.
To be clear, I’m not stating you cannot attain very good full range sound performance in your system using no or 1 to 3 subs.
What I am trying to convey is that the science is correct, utilizing 4 subs seems to pass a threshold that, due to the vast majority of bass standing waves either being reduced or eliminated, allows for bass response that is both powerful and well defined that far exceeds the bass performance that I was ever able to achieve with fewer than 4 subs in my room.
Sorry this post was so long,
Tim
|
Hello mcreyn,
I'm generally against the use of bass traps and other room treatments that attempt to improve in-room bass response. I much prefer reducing or eliminating the root cause of poor bass response in most rooms, the existence of bass standing sound waves that cause bass exaggeration, bass attenuation and even bass disappearance. at various specific room spots.
I tend to view bass room treatments as misguided, similar to using air conditioners at specific spots to reduce the heat in a room that gets too hot on cold days. Just as a lack of room air circulation is often the root cause of poor room temperature control, a lack of room bass sound waves circulation is often the root cause of poor room bass control.
As I've stated ad nauseam previously, deploying a 4 sub distributed bass array system is the only guaranteed method I've yet discovered that provides sota bass response in virtually any room.
I also understand why you may not want to devote the funds and space required in your rather modest office system. If this is the case, the best remedies I can think of for your bass peak and nulls in order of cost and room space are:
1. Start from scratch and re-perform the procedure for locating your sub in a single sub system. I know nothing about your actual office room, but I'm thinking there's likely a better performing specific spot for your sub than its current position. As you walk around your room searching for this spot. you may want to also check spots that are not solely along your walls. Moving your sub even a few feet away from the wall could improve bass response at your listening position.
2. If this is unsuccessful, my best advice is to consider using a second sub. The use of 2 subs, if properly positioned, is the first remedy that will begin to reduce or eliminate some room bass standing waves that are the root cause of your room's bass issues.
3. Addiing 2 subs will further this attack on bass standing waves and improve bass response.
4. Add 3 subs and you'll attain sota bass performance not only at your listening seat but throughout your entire room. The additional subs suggested in any of these remedies are not required to be of the same type, or even the same size or quality, as your existing sub. The critical factor is that having 4 points launching bass sound waves into any room is scientifically verified to reduce or eliminate the vast majority of bass standing waves and will likely provide the best bass response you've lever heard.
Hope this helped a bit,
Tim
|
mcreyn: "
As far as room treatments, I believe that most rooms can benefit from them. The speakers and their interaction with the room are by far the largest determining factor in sound. I do believe in optimizing placement as a first step, but then what? Most rooms have long decay times and the first reflection points are too close, causing image smearing and brightness. $500-1000 in room treatments can transform how a system sounds. There is very solid science behind the reasons for and how to treat a room. You might find this article interesting: http://www.gikacoustics.com/room-setup-case-study/Finally, I think DSP is a great idea when placement and room treatments have not worked. I see the three all working together as a system." Perhaps I wasn't clear but my comments were concerning the use of room treatments for optimizing in-room bass response, not midrange and treble response, and their general futility. I've come to the conclusion that it's best to treat my system as 2 systems: a bass system and a midrange/treble/sound stage illusion system. The 4 sub dba gets the bass sounding powerful, accurate and defined throughout my entire room without the need for any dsp, equalization or bass room treatments. It creates a solid foundation for all music and is excellent for ht. The final step is positioning the main speakers to optimize the midrange. treble and sound stage illusion at the listening position sweet spot (unfortunately, there's currently no known method of optimizing this response throughout the entire room as currently exists for bass response. via the 4 sub dba.) I completely agree with you that there are very necessary and beneficial methods, backed by solid science, of employing room treatments for optimizing the in-room midrange and treble response along with optimizing the sound stage illusion/imaging at the designated listening position. Tim |
Iseanheis 1: "I would disagree and say that getting the phase, crossover, sub volume, and room modes taken care of are more important than a high quality sub.""
I agree and would suggest getting the room modes taken care of (significantly reduced or eliminated) is a good place to start. In my experience, this is relatively easy to do with 4 subs but more difficult to do with just 2 subs. With 2 subs, the goal needs to be lowered to taking care of room modes solely at the listening position, which is acceptable for many systems.
I believe many are under the false impression that if you just use 2 high quality/expensive subs and place them in convenient positions it will result in good bass response. I would caution that this approach will likely provide plenty of bass but whether one would perceive this as 'good bass' is much less likely. I can state with certainty that utilizing 4 properly positioned subs, even if they are of lower quality and size, will result in more accurate bass that is better integrated along with the capacity for impressive bass power as well as the agility to keep pace with the fastest main speakers that never produces bass that lags behind or seems disconnected.
I consider getting the crossover frequency, volume and phase set correctly as final fine tuning steps to attain a desired in-room bass response standard or preference.
I just want to stress that attaining state of the art bass response via a properly setup distributed bass array system is not a matter of opinion. It is a scientifically proven method that works incredibly well in virtually any room. It just happens to have the added benefits of not requiring the highest quality subs, having the option of being bought as a complete kit or custom assembled and being affordable.
I'm also certain that most, if not all, readers who audition a dba would recognize its obvious excellence quickly in their or really any system.
Tim
|
Hello akg_ca,
No matter how high quality or expensive the subs utilized, having just 2 subs in any given room/system is incapable of producing sota bass response throughout the entire room. The optimum potential is good bass reproduction at a single 'sweet spot'.
Is there a recommended positioning method that Vandersteen or you provide to customers?
Thanks,
Tim |
Hello mapman,
Sorry, I'm a bit confused by your last post.
As I understand it and in other words, you're stating that deep bass extension down to about 20 Hz can be achieved in most larger rooms through either a single large sub with a large driver or through multiple subs each with smaller drivers.possibly also incorporating passive radiators. And you add that you're unaware of any single 8" driver sub that can reproduce deep bass down to the typical audible limit of 20 Hz.
If the above accurately reflects your thoughts, I agree with you.
But then you go on to state:
"
If your mains are larger and more full range you will likely have to go with a larger 12" or even larger sub in order to cover the lowest frequencies not covered otherwise by the mains."
I think I clearly understand your statement but disagree with it.
I believe, in your quoted example above, that excellent in-room bass response down to 20 Hz +/- 3 dB can be achieved in virtually any sized room through the use of 4 smaller subs with 10" drivers if configured as a distributed bass array system.
I believe this because my mains are larger and are run full range but only extend down to about 34 Hz. I utilize a db, consisting of 4 smaller subs with 10" drivers, in my medium sized? (23 x 16 foot) room to provide excellent in-room bass response from 20-40 Hz +/- 3 dB that integrate seamlessly with my large Magnepan panel mains for both music and ht.
I understand you don't currently require this degree of bass extension in your own system but thought you'd like to know this type of bass extension is possible in virtually any sized room without the need for subs with 12" or larger drivers .
Tim |
erik_squires:
" TBC, having the space and money to have 4 subs is not the normal music lover's situation."
erik,
Understood. I consider myself fortunate that I was able to accommodate the relatively small 4 Debra subs in my room without issue and inconspicuously. As for the money, I don't have an abundance but I could afford $3K and consider it a bargain.
erik_squires:
"@mapman was talking to that. He was not discrediting the use of 4 subs."
mapman:
"
noble yes for 20 hz in large room you need at least 1 larger sub up to the task (check specs) or multiple subs or drivers. Distributed multiple subs or sub array allows more for smoother bass response throughout a room than extending low end frequency response."
erik and mapman,
Yes, I didn't think mapman was discrediting the use of 4 subs, either. I just wasn't sure if he knew that the Debra/Swarm dbas are capable of reproducing deep bass down to 20 Hz +/- 3 dB in any sized room (running in mono and in combination) and that 'at least 1 larger sub up to the task' is not required to reproduce bass this deep even in a large room.
wolf_garcia:
"
Why does anybody care if the bass is distributed evenly around the room? Is this so you can enjoy accurate bass while doing your yoga headstand against the wall?"
wolf,
I find it disturbing that you're aware I enjoy accurate bass while I'm doing my yoga headstands against my wall.
As to why I care if the bass is distributed evenly around the room, see clio09's post and my reply below:
clio09:
"
I hardly ever sit in the sweet spot. and I have never been concerned with getting the deepest bass. I can't think of any of my guests wanting to stack up on or behind the sweet spot either, but we all want to hear good sound wherever we are in the room, or house for that matter. Not to mention I disliked having my guests ask me about all the acoustic panels I had and why. They appreciate my art collection that hangs on the wall now much more. Thanks to the 4 box distributed array we can eat, drink and enjoy music. Room size is 14 x 20 so with their small footprint they fit quite nicely and nobody trips over them."
clio and wolf,
I agree with clio, my guests and I all want to hear good sound wherever we are in my room. There is just one 'sweet spot' seat in my room for best overall performance but I and my guests think music still sounds good throughout the entire room because it's full range everywhere, from as deepest bass to highest treble as the musical content possesses. Yes, the very realistic, solid and stable sound stage illusion existing only at the 'sweet spot' seat is missing. But the overall sound of well recorded music reproduced in high quality utilizing the actual complete audible range can still be enjoyed throughout the entire room, even when seated at a table in the adjoining dining room.
My wife, guests and I also enjoy the evenly distributed sota bass response for ht. Our room has 6 seats with good views of a 65" plasma hdtv. The 4 sub Debra dba is part of a 5.4 DD surround sound system that, along with the large hdtv, allows for very good A/V reproduction experiences to be enjoyed at each of these 6 seats. I realize this ht capacity is not relevant to some of you but it is to me, my wife, guests and likely some readers of this thread.
Thanks,
Tim
|
As I've stated previously, I was originally very skeptical about the DEBRA dba system. The $3K price, having the space in my room to locate 4 subs in my 23 x 16 foot room without issues, would the system actually work as advertised and would it disturb my system's already very good sound stage illusion (that I really enjoyed) were all important concerns I had.
I justified the price as about the same amount I was already going to spend on my original bass improvement plan of buying 2 conventional self-amplified Vandersteen, JL or REL subs and positioning them to optimize the bass response at my listening seat.
The room space concern I resolved by just committing to rearranging my living/listening room furniture and system if required for the sake of good bass response throughout my entire room. Fortunately, after completing the progressive sub setup procedure I discovered this was no longer an issue. Subs #1 and #2 sounded best positioned along my front 16' wall with each hidden from view by a 6'h x2'w mains speaker panel. Subs #3 and #4 sounded best positioned with one along each 23' side wall. Both are out of the way and partially hidden from view, one by a large end table and the other by a large reclining leather chair.
My concern about whether the DEBRA dba system would provide sota bass response as advertised was lessened gradually. It began to be reduced as I began researching and learning online about the theory behind dba systems, experimental results and practical applications.
White Papers (summaries of their research) I read authored by leading dba researchers Dr. Earl Geddes and Dr. Floyd O'Toole, along with email and phone discussions with James Romeyn of Audio Kinesis, continued to increase my confidence in dba systems and alleviate my concerns .
The 30-day free in-home trial period offered by Audio Kinesis on the DEBRA system overcame my final concern about whether the mono dba would negatively affect my system's already very good sound stage illusion so I decided to purchase the DEBRA. Ultimately, the sota bass of the DEBRA, even though it's the combined outputted sound of 4 separate mono subs, integrated precisely and seamlessly. I perceived the bass as originating from all the proper bass instruments and singers within my still very good sound stage illusion.
As I understand it, the extremely accurate, defined, natural and dynamic sounding bass reproduced by the DEBRA dba subs are all operating in mono, partially being reproduced from 4 separate subs located at different directions and distances from my 'sweet spot' listening seat (sub#1 along the front 16' wall about 3' in from the right 23' wall and about 18' away from my seat, sub#2 along the front 16' wall about 3' in from the left 23' wall and about 18' away from my seat, sub#3 along my left 23' side wall about 3' in from the rear 16' wall and about 8' away from my seat and sub#4 along my right 23' side wall about 3' in from the rear 16' wall and about 8' away from my seat.) and with each launching long bass sound waves that are all deep enough in frequency response that they should not be able to be perceived by myself as directional.
So how am I able to perceive these long bass sound waves as emanating from the proper physical locations within the very stable and solid sound stage illusion seemingly spread across the front of my 16' front wall (with the width, depth and specific locations of the lllusionary musicians and instruments varying with this sound stage illusion depending on the recording) if these bass sound waves are truly non-directional?
I believe the answer lies in the fact that all recorded deep bass sound is comprised not only of the fundamental notes that are physically represented by low frequency sound waves that are non-directional but also of the deep bass note's harmonic notes that are physically represented by higher frequency sound waves that are directional.
It is these higher frequency bass note harmonics, high enough in frequency that they are reproduced by my system's main l+r speakers and not by any of the 4 subs that are typically restricted by the crossover setting to reproducing those that are 40 Hz and below, that actually allows the brain to determine where the fundamental bass note is emanating from.
Well, I hope my words were adequate in communicating this rather complex concept.
If not, please let me know if you need me to clarify anything.
If so, please let me know your thoughts on this concept.
I definitely don't consider myself an expert on in-home bass systems. I'm just a music and ht enthusiast who's always enjoyed the realism provided in both by very good bass response and I've been searching for a method to attain this in my system for decades.
I believe I've discovered a concept, the distributed bass array system, and a couple of complete dba kit products , the Audio Kinesis Swarm and DEBRA 4 sub dbas, that I'm thrilled with because the DEBRA system I bought and installed has finally provided what I consider sota bass response to my system for both music and ht.
I now feel an obligation to spread the word on this high performance bass system solution on this high performance audio/video internet discussion forum site. I have no connections to Audio Kinesis besides being a very satisfied customer.
Thanks,
Tim |
