@chakster you might have got lucky or something like that. I have been looking to buy a DD for the last 1.5 years. The main candidates were the Sp10 mk2 and Yamaha GT-2000. You can read my previous posts here, I have asked about these TTs many times. Both of them are similarly priced, between $2500 to $4000 for a "excellent" condition unit and also depends on what accessories you get (plinth and tonearm). I was almost sure of getting of a Yamaha but the voltage available is only 100v so I kind of postpone my purchase. For both these TTs I have been going through all the usual places (ebay, hifishark, audio-markt). I even contacted Bill Thallmann to ask if he has a good unit for sale. He had one unit for sale for $2995, without the krebs mods and in a DIY plinth. Here is the picture, please zoom and see: https://s15.postimg.cc/uh7dzpl0r/IMG_1382.jpgAnyway, coming back to the real discussion of which is the better one. True, but to some the 1200G may be better than the sp10 mark II and vice versa. @tzh21y , anyone can prefer any TT, as it is a subjective thing. However, I wanted to eliminate the ifs and buts and hence I bought both of them and compared for myself using the same Tonearm, cartridge and LPs on the same system back to back. The fundamental difference remained a very clear and simple. The force and presence of instruments on the SP10 was simply more real. It pressurizes the room with higher dynamics and scale. It is like going from a $2000 to $5000 CDP. In both the players the level of details would be nearly similar but the $5k CDP presents a more dynamic and bigger picture filling up a bigger space and moreover the throw of the instruments and voices more like a direct cut. It is not about the quality of recording or the mat used or cartridge used etc. It is a simple A > B, especially since both comes from the same stable. Again, it is not to spoil the jubiliance of a 1200G owner. The 1200G has made a dashing entry to the world of TTs. Very rarely do we see such an amazing acceptance of a new kid. Today anyone shopping for a mid-priced TT has or should have a 1200G in the shortlist. But as honest audiophiles we should know where it actually stands. The same goes to Sp10R. Its primary contenders are not so much the older Sp10 but the newer Regas and VPIs. So in that regards it is a new standard that people are comparing everything against. But the old warhorses have not been surpassed IMO. In fact that goes to show the level of understanding those old engineers had about music. |
@chakster the typical market price for a really nice sp10 Mk2 is $2500 and thereof. There are many examples of sp10 with many scratches, paint peeled off and letters worn out. They go for less than $2k.
if you add a plinth and starter tonearm to this combo, we are looking at $3.5k which is not far off from a 1200g. Where 1200g needs a evoke PSU, the sp10 can be bettered with a krebs mod, both cost similar amounts.
Regarding carts, I personally feel the fundamentals of music is very well revealed with neutral and straightforward cartridges like the 103r and Cadenza Blue. The phonostage must be a good one else there will be a lot of loss there |
@lewm, I haven’t heard the great Mk3 so I did not write about it. Steve Dobbins once told me that a real competitor of a fully done up Garrard is the Mk3, not the Mk2. My Garrard still doesn’t have a Dobbins platter which is a missing link.
Anyway, my sp10 is in excellent shape. It was nicely refurbished in Switzerland. But it doesn’t have th krebs mod yet. I would love to try the full plinth option but for that I will have to get a plinth. Probably the Mk2 will sound fuller and voluptuous with the plinth which could be interesting.
My motive was to compare the 2 Technics TTs of similar price. The 1200g and sp10 Mk2 both target similar audiophile tastes and budget. |
I don't like using any Step-up or step-down transformers because they impose their own sound to the TT. It will be a coloration. I know some would say it is not a big deal but I am very particular on that front. And yes, I expect very meticulous condition when buying these things. Not that I am afraid or anything, it is just that I don't want to buy something and keep thinking that it could have been better. Moreover, sending these TTs to one of the knowledgeable person and getting it fully up-to-date costs easily $1k including shipping and labour charges. I spent $1.5k to send my Garrard 301 to Loricraft for a full refurbishment and calibration. Then there are many who don't go to those lengths and simply use a Garrard as-is. In fact it is also another reason I have not been able to pull the trigger on a Yamaha GT-2000. Who will check its fitness and get it updated? It is a personal thing I guess.
Anyway discussing street price is not the subject of this thread. It will be interesting to know if someone has actually compared the Sp10 Mk2 to a Yamaha GT-2000. |
The tonearm was placed on the 1200G plinth and not on an external stand. So in that respect it was fine. In fact it significantly improved the 1200G compared to the stock tonearm.
I have a few mats. I tried them on the 1200G and 301. Finally I chose to use mats which suits each of these TTs best.
Anyway, the differences were so fundamental that changing mats or cables or even the rack wouldn’t change anything. I don’t use typical audiophile recordings to evaluate gears because I want to finally own them and not just write about them. I use regular music which I have grown up listening. Simple stuff like Cat Stevens or Billy Joel should allow me to be lost in their musicianship. Else I know something is less right. |
Another album on which I liked the 1200G was Dave Brubeck "Time Further Out". It is an all acoustic percussion based music. It has a lot of off beat Rhythm sections which if not reproduced with proper transients and timing, won't be musically understandable. The 1200G reproduced it very well. I did not care if it was better or worse than the other TT on this album, it just sounded very good. So, listening percussion which is a lot more dependent on starts and stops and right pitch, direct drives are always very nice to listen. |
Pani, How are those Tannoy Turnberry speakers? I often see them in stores, but I’ve never heard a pair in action. They are popular in Japan, for sure.
Lewm, anything for a Tannoy related discussion :-). These are the only items that has remained in my system for the last 6 years without even a thought of being replaced. They have a monitor like tone without any dryness. They have a throw and presence akin to a horn speaker but at the same time sounds like point source because of the concentric drivers. They do deep, punchy and wet bass notes which are again a speciality of those big drivers in a big cabinet. Oh, you can get me talking on this all day long. You should listen to it properly powered. My friends here in Singapore have replaced their Avalons, Focal Utopia and Wilsons with a Turnberry and are amazed with what they have been missing all these years. |
Pani: Did you listen to your Technics 1200G before you had the Time-Step PSU installed?
No, I did not. I bought it with Time Step PSU.
What does the Time Step psu do to or for the performance of the 1200G?
The 1200G comes with a SMPS by default. It supposedly adds a layer of HF hash to the sound. It is a very common phenomena with all things involving SMPS. The time-step PSU is an analog PSU with toroidal transformer and designed as an external unit connected via an umblical cord to the TT. It supposedly lowers the noise floor and sounds it should, i.e "analog" |
Every PSU has its own distortions which come through in a TT too. That’s why a power cord change on a TT also results in a different sound. A SMPS has its switching distortions in Hf region. It also spews back the noise into ac line contaminating the sound of other equipments. All of this probably causes the hash that we all relate to in a SMPS based equipment. I have personally felt the problem whenever I have used any SMPS based audio equipment. Be it the Linn Ikemi cdp, Bluenote Stibbert cdp, Crayon audio amps, pro-ject phono RS etc. I didn’t want to bring in similar trouble with the 1200g |
2 things @lewm ,
1. I have spoken to Berning directly on this subject. He clearly agrees that all SMPS has those switching distortions which manifests as a hint of glare, hash..in the HF region. After all music signal is basically riding on the power created by the PSU. As per Berning, his output transformer is primarily filtering those distortions that occurs in the very high frequencies. Still it is somewhat audible which he says is a compromise to choose from. An analog PSU as per him is big, bulky, susceptible to interference from other components, complex (because it has to be an external box) where a good SMPS is small, efficient and with his design less distorted. So, the point is, SMPS distortion is ubiquitously accepted.
2. I have heard power cords affecting sonics very very clearly and that too not in a subtle way of magnitude. If you don't agree with such a phenomena, that's fine. Have you tried different power cords on your TTs ? |
The Garrard would be more for fun and variety. Also it looks cool.
Now, however, SME has announced the production a new Garrard 301 sometime next year...
Now that is the news of the decade! If Garrards are back in production and that too with engineering prowess of SME, it will be a huge one. BTW, a stock restored Garrard is nothing more than fun, don't expect it to satisfy your audiophile cravings. It has to be really tweaked with some modern parts to get it to perform "hifi". That is one reason why Garrard is not an inexpensive proposition. |
Is this the same thread I started ?
I have something very interesting to share.
Has anyone heard the Audiospecials Phonolab 1.0 phonostage ? |
@tzh21y thats very good news. I hope to listen to this TT again some time. It is a TT that if you like, you won't change for a long long time.
@downunder , yes I have the Audiospecials Phonolab 1.0 at my home for trial. I have been hunting for that perfect phono for a long time now.
First it was RCM Sensor Prelude - Good but not super.
Then it was the Naim Superline with Supercap - Very dynamic and holographic sounding, but in the end it did not have the right flow of music (quite contrary to typical Naim products.
Then I bought a Audio Note M6 phono. It is a MM only model with a SUT required. It is expensive and it sounds expensive too. Tone color, dynamics and all the tube goodies in huge dose with very good resolution too. What it lacked was speed. It doesnt swing and boogie with that realistic pace. Rather it gives music its own flavor of bloom, color and body with a laidback, full sound. To me I was listening to a "voiced" product.
After all this I kept things simple and bought an old Yamaha C70 preamp with in-built phono which did not have any special tricks to highlight itself. Its all discrete FET based phonostage played music in a straightforward manner and it was okay for me till I found a truly honest phonostage with all the dynamics and slam of the big boys.
The Audiospecials Phonolab 1.0 is here for a trial at the moment. They offer a 7 days trial period. What I am hearing is very very good. Colorless, big dynamic range, very quiet, high resolution and above all fast and precise like a true studio gear. You immediately know that you are hearing whats on the record with all its glory without voicing. Flow of music is very accurate so you sing along as the music plays. Lots gain and impedance adjustments so thats not a limitation either. That tube vs SS thing doesnt come into picture because music is sounding just right. I think it could be a solid keeper. I am happy with this discovery. At last someone hears music right and made an appropriate device.
Now for my TT hunt, still on. That will be closing chapter (almost!). |
I have not done it myself but I know couple of guys who have had the sp10r besides a sp10 Mk2/mk3. Their opinion was that the older sp10 models present music with more drive and momentum whereas the the new 10r is more about sophistication and resolution. A more modern and laidback take on music that is.
So if you value more subtlety (belt drive style) and resolution then the 10r could appeal you more. For high energy, high drive, impactful listen the older sp10s does it better. |
