Thiel Owners

Hi Thiel lover's,

Sorry for my crooked English.

I am a new proud owner of a set CS 2.4 loudspeakers,  running them with Audio-GD pre/DAC/amp and a Mano Ultra streamer.

Really love the CS 2.4 and in my experience the best sounding loudspeakers I ever had, but knowing the crossovers are always a compromise to keep loudspeakers affordable I upgraded the crossovers of the tweeter/mid unit with Jantzen caps, see also,
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-cs2-4-upgrade-to-cs-2-4-se

Because off the great!! improvement I like tho do the whole crossover but I am not sure what to upgrade, only thing I can think of is to replace the woofer coil for a nice Jantzen  wax coil, but what about the resistors in series on the tweeter/mid crossovers?
They are not part of the 6db crossover but the signal is going true them, confused!!??

Greetings from Holland, 

Mario

Thanks for your input andy2, much appreciated :-)  

I have the xover network,
https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16061554/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/CS-2.4%3ESE.png

I have a Audio-GD Master 3 power amp (250W 8ohm / 500W 4ohm / 1000W 2ohm), it drives my CS 2.4 perfectly. 

The Jantzen caps are now burnt in for a week, it's incredible how much potential the coax driver has with better capacitors!! Loved my CS 2.4, love them now even more :-)

Hi Tom,

I changed the 13uf and 1uf for a Jantzen 10uf Superior Z-Cap + Jantzen 3.9uf Alumen Z-Cap and I changed the 27uf and the 1uf for a Jantzen 18uf Superior Z-Cap + Jantzen 10uf Alumen Z-Cap.

The why is because I wanted to upgrade to the SE version capacitors but the Clarity SA caps are a lower grade than the now used Jantzen caps.

Don't know what you specific mean with listening experience, but I am a audio lover for many years and have build up a nice audio setup.

Br,  Mario

Photo of the upgraded crossover.

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16063416/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/Thiel-CS-2.jpg

Ok, lots more air (very impressive!!) and a bit more detail without any added sharpness.  

The stock caps is like a handbrake for the CS 2.4 ;)

We working on upgrading the whole crossovers with better parts.

Yes thinking about the wiring also,  but at first I like to know what the stock wiring is, they can be silver wires as far as I know, maybe Tom can share some info about the wiring. 

Thanks Tom for clearing out the wire quality 

Tom, I was thinking to change the resistors for the Mundorf MResist Supreme one's, but will the MRA-12 Mills be the better choice? 

Like the pricing of the MRA's compared to the Mundorf's :-)

Br,  Mario

Thanks for the input guys, much appreciated!!

The idea, what do you guy's think?

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16067084/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/CS-2.4%3ESE.png

Thanks Tom & Beetlemania :-)

For sure it's the PCB version, resistors are equal but there are no marks on the coil's, do you guy's know the value of the changed 0,72mH coil on the PCB version? I wil also look for the other parts that you reported.

Can't find a Mills 4ohm resistor in Europe that's why I changed them to a parallel 4R7 and 27R resistor with a total result of 4R003

See photo,
https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16063392/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/20181101-192450.jpg 

Thanks again beetlemania

Hope Tom Thiel can also shed some light on the bass coil.

Br,  Mario

Congrats with the 3.7, hope to have them one time also.

Read the reviews and make your conclusion, Bryston isn't the only one that can manage the power hungry Thiel's and make them sing ;-)

Audio-GD Master 3 power amp, Audio-GD Master 10 is the Master 3 with an integrated preamp.

Spec's, 250W @ 8ohm / 500W @ 4ohm / 1000W @2ohm
http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-32015/Master-32015EN_Specs.htm

Reviews,
https://6moons.com/audioreviews/magnepan2/1.html

https://headmania.org/2017/07/16/audio-gd-master-10-speaker-amplifier-review/

http://www.modelpromo.nl/Audio-GD_Master10en.htm

I havo bought an LCR meter so it will be possible to check out the coil on the woofer board, now I only need to find the time to do it.

I have planed to change the PCB for bigger ones, so there will be room for the parts to breathe ;-)

I have measured the woofer coil, seems to be the same as on the diagram, wire is 1.8mm in diameter, coil size is 55mm outer diameter with a height of 33mm.

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16070131/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/Thiel-CS-2.jpg

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16070130/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/Thiel-CS-2.jpg

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16070132/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/Thiel-CS-2.jpg

serial numbers are unreadable :-(

Anybody know were I can order Mills 12W resistors?
I need 2x 4 Ohm and 2x 16 Ohm.  

Thanks Beetlemania.

I have send Sonic Craft an email, with there  shipping costs the 4 resistors will cost me about 70 Euros!!
Not only doubles the shipping the price off the 4 resistors but the total also triggers the import taxes and VAT:(
Hope they can give me a better shipping rate than the $17.50

Wish I had the money to spend ;-)

Thiel CS 3.7
€ 7.190,00
http://link.marktplaats.nl/m1349466028?utm_source=android_social&utm_content=vip&utm_medium=...

I have also a set off Kef's R900, bass of the CS2.4 is the better one for sure. 

beetlemania,

Is it an option that you collect all the needed Mills resistors for the CS-2.4 and send them for reasonable costs to the Netherlands? 

Happy Christmas all.

beetlemania PM sent

Yesterday I upgraded the NOS-11 (Pre/DAC) from Audio-GD to a Audio-GD Master-1 preamp and an Audio-GD R8 (R-2R Resistor Ladders DAC)

Great improvements across all areas!! also nice to experience that the CS-2.4 receives these upgrades with verve :-)

Did a video recording of my audio set, not the best recording in mono but just to get an idea ;)

https://youtu.be/xVTKm7MoWSA

Original song,
https://youtu.be/iIh2y5O8vH8

Btw, why are there no options here to post photos and videos, IMHO not something that fits this subject and others on this forum.

Ordered the rest of the parts to upgrade the CS-2.4 crossovers to (hopefully) perfection ;-)

2x the 0.72mH Jantzen Wax Coil, Copper foil Inductor 30mm width, 14AWG

4x the Jantzen Universal PCB, FR4, 140mm x 190mm

Jantzen Solder, 4% silver - 100g

4x the 100uF 100V Mundorf ECap AC RAW electrolytic capacitor

2x the 2R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

2x the 30R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

2x the 4R7 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor 

2x the 27R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

2x the 3R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

To make 4ohm and 16ohm resistors (can’t get them in Europe) I ordered the next following resitors,

2x the 4R7 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

4x the 27R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

2x the 39R 12W MRA12 Mills Resistor

27R + 4R7 in paralel make’s 4R

27R + 39R in paralel make’s  15R95 

Hifi Collective will pair them with higher measuring 27R and 39R resistors to get 16R resistors 

Because of the lead time for the coil’s it will take some time, keep you guys posted.

You're welcome jafant.

Happy New Year

In my eyes the best amp if you need real current (it's on my wish list)

http://www.audio-gd.com/Master/Master-2H/Master-2HEN.htm

The final components choice for the CS-2.4 crossover upgrade, it will be made on new larger Jantzen Universal PCB's and soldered with Jantzen Solder, 4% silver

https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16092231/1024/Thiel-CS-2.4/CS-2.4-SE-final.png

jafant,

Thanks for your kind words.

For my CS-2.4 I am also thinking of replacing the internal cabling with the HGC 99.999% pure silver wire (Teflon sheathed and twisted +/-), 1mm diameter for the coax and 2mm diameter for the woofer, what do you guys think?

Changed my plans!! Resently I changed my van den Hul Magnum loudspeaker cable's for the Supra PLy 3.4/S cable's, this are screened loudspeaker cables and the screen needs to be connected to ground on the power-amp,  although they are relativ cheap cable's they give a great improvement on SQ in my case, so the idea is to use them also for the internal wirering and pass thru the shielding to the outside with some kind of extra connector to the Supra PLy 3.4/S cable, there is also the option to connect the unit's so everything will be connected to ground.

Tomthiel,
The idea is to connect the chassis of the unit's to ground, not the coil's of the unit's, will find out how when I remove them.

Correct,  I meant the driver frames, the results will be easy to check when unplugging the ground connection.

Btw, sorry for my crooked English.

andy2

Great info!! Thanks :)

Jafant,

My Audio-GD 40kg dual mono power-amp is super stable and drive's the CS-2.4 with verve, some specs, 2x 250W / 8ohm - 2x 500W / 4ohm - 2x 1000W / 2ohm and max 2x 1000W / 1ohm, higher loads than 1000W will tricker the protection, there was never a situation that I heard anything going wrong and I like playing loud some times, according to my wife most times ;)

Got all the parts for the final upgrade, next thing is designing the layout on the new PCB's 

beetlemania, 

I'm aware of the do's and don'ts placing coil's, how to placing coil's near capacitors is new info for me, thanks for the link :)
But like you said, there will be more space on the bigger PCB's, and if Jim Thiel didn't calculate the specific distances between the coil's I see no problem but rather an improvement.

Measured the received Jantzen Cross coil’s, the two 0.15mH measure both 0.152 but the two 0.72mH Jantzen wax coil’s measure 0.749mH and 0.750mH :(
This will lower the crossover for the woofer about 30hz (880hz vs 850hz), my first thought is to send them back and wait another month for new one’s but maybe one of you guys have other thoughts about this?
There is also the option that I unwind them to get 0.72mH, did that before in the past but never on a foil wax coil.

tomthiel,

The coil's are completely waxed, don't know how hard the layers stick to each other, if I demolish them I lose the guarantee to get new one's.

I suspect that the woofer is 4ohm, with a 6db crossover a 0.72mH coil cross at 880Hz, 0.75mH will cross at of 850Hz, so the loss will be about 30Hz.

Yes iff I want I can measure it with REW, but I don't want to complete the crossovers with the 0.75mH coil's.

Looking at my last Dirac Live measurement there seems to be a shoot over around 800hz > 1000hz, so the 30hz won't be a loss at that point.

[URL=https://picturepush.com/public/16097034][IMG]https://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/16097034/1024/Thie...]

Tomthiel,

I know the numbers are not correct, I just wanted to show the theoretical effect of the difference between the two values to get an idea how large the impact will +/- be ;)

Andy2,

The measurement was taken from the listening spot with Dirac Live in my living room, there is no way to get perfect measurements without a  treated dedicated audio room,  that I don't have :(

The device I use to compensate my room with great results.

  https://www.minidsp.com/products/dirac-series/ddrc-88a

I have now finished the coax crossover of the right speaker and am listening to music with a big smile on my face, incredible how much such an upgrade brings!! And now also the CS2.4 shows its appreciation with the nicer parts :)

Still a lot to do,  but it's all worth it 

see link for the photos,
https://holco.picturepush.com/album/1171389/p-Thiel-CS-2.4.html

beatlemania,Thanks :)

I realize that the investment I made (> € 750) is not really realistic with a new loudspeaker of €5000 (bought them for €1600), but it is amazing how eagerly the CS2.4 appreciates the parts!!
I have had many (Magnapan, Kharma, Audiostatic, Kef, Oragle-Helicon, Red Rose Music, Aurum Cantus, Scansonic, etc etc) loudspeakers and I usually improve the crossovers because there is usually a lot to be gained but there is no one that comes even close to this Thiel loudspeaker :)

Wish Jim Thiel was still alive so I could shake his hands with respect!!