greetings. i have not read all the way through all the posts, but if you are looking for a great amp with Thiel, i have had great success with matching my 2.7's with the new PS Audio BHK amp. It can handle anything and has a wonderful sound. it replaced a really nice Marantz silver reference amp, and was a good improvement. if anyone reading this is interested, i do have a set of Sound Anchor speaker stands for Thiel speakers (either 2.2 or 2.4). please feel free to let me know if you are interested
Showing 50 responses by ronkent
I have followed this thread for quite a while and decided to enter my four cents. i have been a loyal thiel owner since 1985 when i got my first pair of CS2s. since then i have owned 2.2, 2.4, and now i have a wonderful pair of 2.7's with outriggers. I have owned tons of different electronics over the years but stayed loyal to Thiel, sort of like fourwinds above. I currently use the PS Audio BHK 250 amp with them and that is a great match. if anyone reading this needs a set of the sound anchor platforms for 2's and 2.2's, please let me know. ktager@triad.rr.com |
hi guys, great reading and thanks to all. this is my first time posting on this thread but wanted to add my 2.7 cents so to speak. i have owned every generation of the 2 series since 1986. 2.0, 2.2, 2.4, and now 2.7. Each upgrade was well worth it but i doubt i will go the 3.7 route since a new REL SHO/5 sub seems to have really given me what was missing. i think the biggest change in the speakers was the move from the 2.0 series to the 2.2. that first generation was anemic by comparison. so over 30 years later i still love these speakers and hate what has happened to the company. I have a backup coax as that seems the most vulnerable as i have had to replace two so far. never had issues with the older series. anyone here had issues with these drivers? Thiel and Rob replaced the two bad ones under warranty but i purchased the spare one. Expensive but it beats buying a new speaker which would take a lot of dollars to equal these babies. May even buy another coax. the woofer and the passive drivers have not been an issue. I do have a set of sound Anchors that i used with the 2.0 and 2.2 series if I recall. anyone interested can write me about them if they would like to purchase them. I used Mapleshade platforms under the 2.4's, but with the outriggers on the 2.7's, i use them on the floor directly. my amp is the incredible PS Audio BHK 250. Best amp i have ever used and it will work great with Thiel speakers. thanks again. |
jut in case someone needs this info thought i would post it. Hi Kent,
I have examined the CS2.7 coax that you returned. The failure mode was a buzz generated by the midrange cone. Upon closer inspection I found one of the joints between the diaphragm and the coil former was broken or loose. This will definitely be covered by your warranty, and you can disregard the memo bill sent. Thank you for your business.
Best regards and Happy Listening!
Rob
Rob
Gillum | Service
Manager |
hi Jafant, thanks for your kind remarks. I started with the 2 series in 1985 after selling a pair of Infinity 2.5 speakers. they were like a mini mini version of the IRS. In 1992 got the 2.2's. kept them for about 15 years and got the 2.4's in 2007. boy were they a big improvement. then i got the 2.7's in 2014 and they have been remarkable in how they keep getting better as the other gear improves. I am a total PS Audio Fanboy and have their BHK preamp, BHK 250 amp, P10 power conditioner, the fantastic DMP player, and the most amazing of all, the DSD DAC. They have, through software downloads, updated the unit like five times, all for free. The most amazing thing and the reason i write this, is how easy it is to hear the changes because the Thiel speakers are so dang revealing. They are going to be hard to improve on unless we move into the Magico or Wilson price points. The remainder of my system is a REL S/5 SHO sub. Plus i use all PS AC12 power cords, a beautiful and highly recommended Samson rack from Mapleshade, and many of their feet and other stuff. I sure hope that Rob can continue to run the repair division because there sure are a lot of us devotees out there. Congrats to him for 30 years at Thiel. He has been there as long as i have owned them. I do have really good memories of interacting with Gary Dayton over the years. Their customer service was on par with PS Audio and that is saying something. |
as a Thiel owner of over 30 years, starting with the CS 2 and ending with the 2.7's, i can attest to how great they really are. however i have had issues with the mid/tweeter drivers of the 2.7's, and have had to replace two of them. Luckily they were covered under warranty and Rob graciously sent me new ones. I also purchased a spare as you never know what is going to happen with them. has anyone else had issues with the drivers of the 2.7's. up until these speakers, I only had to replace one tweeter (in the 2.2's) in all the preceding years. |
thanks to those responding to my posts about the drivers failing. both times it was the midrange part of the driver that failed but of course the entire unit had to be replaced which is not hard to do. the first time was only about two months after i had the speakers so it may just have been defective from the get go. the second time was about two year into use and by then i had acquired the fantastic PS Audio BHK amp, so i know it was not clipping from lack of power. I play them loud but not really ever above 85 db as measured by the app on my phone. i played the older Thiel speakers just as loud an had no problems with the 2.4's for the seven years i had them. i had the 2.2's for about 16 years and did lose one tweeter but that was it. I do have one backup just in case, but wonder how long Rob will be able to take care of us. |
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BTW... I tried some Iso Acoustic Iso-Pucks under one of my Thiel 2.7s tonight. Some here probably know Iso Acoustics products are all the rage these days in terms of speaker stands/isolation and their Gaia series speaker footers seem beloved." I do not think the iso pucks were ever designed for a floor standing speaker at all. I think they are really for electronics as was mentioned above. On my 2.7's, i had been using the outrigger with the spikes that came with them. Replaced them with big brass feet from Mapleshade and that was a nice improvement. Recently I too got a set of the Gaia feet that i screwed into the outriggers. My girlfriend liked the brass feet better but i liked the more expansive sound with the Gaia. I think either the Gaia or the brass feet are worth looking into depending on your sound preferences. |
you are welcome. wish we could post pics here. I like Mapleshade products and my rack is the Samson rack which is pretty awesome and actually a good deal for what you get. I would also use the platforms under my speakers but to get that size is pretty high $$. And as i posted earlier, and i have not put them on audiogon, i do have a set of the sound anchors that should work for the older 2 series if anyone is interested. |
this is from Rob in response to an email i sent him. he has been great to work with. Thank you very much Kent!
The transition period for the changes are difficult and many. I definitely have a good stock of CS2.7/CS3.7 coaxial drivers if needed. My goals at THIEL are to continue providing excellent customer service for all THIEL Owners. I really do thank all Audiogon forums and customers for their continued support. Without you guys, I would not exist. Many Thanks!
Rob Gillum THIEL Service 615-866-2290 763 Newtown Pike, #130, Lexington KY 40511 |
a response from Rob Gillum to a question i had asked him The CS3.7 cabinet is pressurized from the woofer and it is true that if there is an air leak between the main cabinet and the coax chamber, it will cause unwanted pressure to the coax midrange. This can cause the midrange driver excursion to be greater, which in turn will cause the midrange to fail. To check for the leak, you can gently push in on the woofer and Passive diaphragms at the same time. This will pressurize the cabinet, and no movement should come from the coax midrange. The midrange diaphragm is connected to the coil former via 25 points of a special adhesive. If the CS3.7 is driven hard, then it is possible for the glue joints to break. If only a few break, then the end result is distortion. If many of the glue joints break, then the excursion will become great enough for the lead wires to the mid to break. This will render a dead mid. When sealing the coax chamber, use a caulk containing silicone. Door and window. There are two pieces of tubing which carry the wires into the chamber. Make sure that the wire tubing is not leaking as well. At the factory, we injected some hotmelt into the tubes to seal the wires. Also make sure that the tubing is not leaking around the holes in the divider. |
as a 35 year, four generation owner of the 2 series, i would like to weigh in on the "Thiel is bright" issue. my first pair, the cs 2's were bright but not offensive. once i got the 2.2's that issue really became moot, and by the time i got 2.4's, no tipped up sound at all. i do agree with the fact that these speakers will not be real forgiving with a bright sounding amp. I have had my best results with the PS Audio BHK 250 amp and the 2.7'. a match made in audio heaven. |
hi Tom Thiel, thanks for writing. It is great to have you on this forum. I think us Thiel owners are an especially devoted and passionate group regarding their beloved speakers. I had the CS 2s from abut 1985 to about 1991 and enjoyed them but was not totally smitten. Back then its major competition was the Vandersteen but i found them too muddy. However based on what i had read at the time, the 2.2 series was a big improvement and i went that way. after that, i really never looked at other brands as i knew that as i transitioned to a newer generation of the 2 series, the sound would get better. Loved the 2.4's and the 2.7 series are the best ever. I told my girlfriend the other night that it was sad as there will not be a next generation and i for one, do not know of anything remotely close in price that can touch the 2.7's. Heard a pair of the amazing speaker by Carver the other day driven by PS Audio mono blocks, and there is no way it was better though the system was a lot more $$$$. The cabinetry on my current speakers is gorgeous and i think i have you to thank for that, so a big thank you. |
I agree with Prof. i too like more near field listening with my 2.7's. i started doing this after reading some info on the Mapleshade site about listening position. Pierre thinks most people sit too high and too far away. i use a really nice and comfy Lafuma zero gravity chair to recline back so my ears are definitely below the coax. i think sitting on a heavily padded couch might not be a good idea as i used to do that . my ears are about 7'10" from the coaxes and i get a very enveloping (depending on the recording) sound stage. |
i point my speakers almost straight with maybe 2 degrees toe in. they are about 9' apart as measured from the center of the coaxes. ears are about 7'8" to the coax and are below the coax about 6". please read what Pierre has to say about listening position. it is general for sure but some good info here. just avoid heavily padded chairs or couches right behind your ears (which is why i use the Lafuma cloth covered recliner). http://www.mapleshadestore.com/freeupgrades.php |
hi Guys, I just acquired a beautiful set of demo 3.7's in maple. They are breaking in and so it is too early to comment on the sound. they can be pretty ragged at first but after a week they have improved a bunch. I am going to eventually sell my 2.7's as i cannot keep both (lucky you Prof.). Joseph Audio was also on my list but could not pass these up. would be curious to see if anyone ever gets to compare the two. If anyone on the east coast is interested in the 2.7's, please feel free to write me at kent@thehubltd.com. I do have all boxes and everything, but shipping is so expensive. |
thanks to Tom and everyone else. I agree about the two speakers. at this point of break in, my girlfriend likes the 2.7's better and wants to keep them. I am very fussy about the sound of the cd's i have and most are pretty well recorded, and i think the 3.7's will allow me to hear deeper into them and enjoy them more. they are getting better but need more time. |
hi guys, regarding amps, i have had great success with the PS Audio BHK stereo amp. would love the mono blocks but they are not in the budget. I am using it with both the 2.7's and 3.7's and it is really good with them. Will be selling one pair, most likely the 2.7's, but still comparing them at this juncture. Kent Tager |
hi Jafant, my entire system is PS and i could not be happier. they have great customer service, made in the USA, and all the higher end stuff is fantastic (no experience with Stellar). my system consists of their BHK preamp and amp, the DSD DAC, the DMP transport, and the P10 power regenerator. They offer (except for speakers which they are working on) a complete line up of audio gear. |
Hi Prof, yes i have followed your post with great interest because i also have both. my 3.7's are new from Rob and they have been breaking in. at first, not so good, but now they are really coming alive. your comment about them doing everything really easily seems to be coming true with mine: "Despite
auditioning the newest-thing speakers out there, the 3.7s have been sooooo hard
to replace because they just seem to effortlessly "do it all."
I too have issues with traffic but not too bad. Keep us posted |
hi Prof, boy it has been an interesting six weeks since i first got them. first week or so, they were not very good. they have improved enough that i prefer the sound of them over the 2.7's. for a point of reference i would assign the 2.7's a sound quality of 8. at first the 3.7's were about a six as they were bright and one dimensional. now they are at 8.5 and improving as they were essentially new speakers, and from all that i have read, they need 200 plus hours to really start sounding their best. they seem to be more extended, accurate, and less congested. that said, i could live happily with the 2.7's. and i do like the more compact size and looks better on them as well. my girlfriend likes the "warmer/sweeter" sound of them but i think she likes the bit of mid bass bloom that the bigger ones do not seem to have. overall two awesome speakers and you are right, in that whoever gets my 2.7's, is going to be very lucky. the sub is an REL S/5 and i really like what it adds. seemed to mate well after playing with room placement and the settings. Paul at PS Audio is who turned me on to them. They are his faves as well. they are very easy to hook up, just run their cable from the outputs of the amp right to the REL using their special connector. |
Prof: i think that mid bass bloom is very addictive and i can see why she likes it. but i find the articulation is better on the bigger ones and they do go deeper with less effort. either speaker is amazing. I heard a system today with a pair of Magico's that sell for about $29,000 for the pair. I did not leave the demo wishing i had them instead. The system sounded great but not really any better than mine with a much more affordable speaker. I was at a seminar on REL subs and i think you might find them easier to set up and use than the JL's |
hi Prof, REL takes a totally different approach to subs than JL. I am no expert and am not very technically literate, but one of my takeaways today was that REL does not like the outboard crossovers that do what the JL does. they want the speaker to receive the full range of signal and for the amp to send a full signal to the sub. i agree with Jafant, that the REL is not that hard to set up. |
hi guys, well i went and heard the Magicos (the ones that sell for right at 30K) and they were very very impressive. they were driven by VTL electronics and they were streaming using a Berkeley DAC. the sound was amazingly clear, like a set of quads but with upper and lower frequency extension. the level of detail and articulation was amazing and i had to ask if the REL subs were on (they were not), as the bass was so good. truthfully if money was not an issue, i think i would prefer them over the Thiels but not 100% sure about that. there is something about the way the 3.7's do music that is captivating in a way that these were not. But i think we get used to a certain sound and we have to retrain our ears. Kind of like driving a new car as they all feel and handle differently. The thing is, i did not come home and find my system lacking or disappointing. In fact, i enjoyed it just as much so there you have it. if i were looking for new speakers, Magico along with Joseph Audio, would be on my short list, along with the upcoming speakers from PS Audio, but for right now and for years to come, i will still be a Thiel guy. |
@beetlemania you are welcome. this sure is a fun but challenging hobby. I agree with your statements about punching above their weight class. The Magicos are so well designed with one of the most rigid cabinets on the market and I think one reason they sound so clean is that there are no colorations imparted to the sound by the cabinets. The Thiels i am thinking, have more cabinet resonances and nothing will change that. Changing speakers is such a pain (selling and shipping the old ones for example) that i probably will be keeping these for many years. the crossover upgrade sounds awesome but i for one am not qualified to go in and change everything so i guess that it is not in my future. thanks. |
@jafant greetings, i am not sure of the cables but i know he likes Clarus. the Magico guy was there to make sure it was done right. they are probably the most accurate speaker i have ever heard, but again, they are in another price league from used 3.7's (mine came from Rob G). i think at this level, i could be happy for many a year, and i have used Thiel exclusively since 1985. thanks for starting this thread way back. |
thanks Beetle: i will wait and see what TT comes up with. I am guessing i could swap out the entire crossover easier than changing parts but not sure. truthfully it sounds great right now but i am going to keep my eyes and ears open for the TT updates. thanks for the links regarding cabinet resonances. will check them out. i bet your 2.4's sound great. i had a pair and they were terrific but sold them when i got the 2.7's. |
@dancastagna. greetings. i have been using the 2.7's for the last three plus years, and just now am replacing with 3.7's. they are not bright speakers but also are not going to whitewash a bright source. I think you will love the speakers and it is easier to audition new electronics than to be constantly changing speakers. i have great luck with the PS audio BHK line and you might want to check out their Stellar line, though i have not heard it myself. But the fact that the lows are so so tells me that you have issues that are not in the speaker as that speaker has excellent bottom end. I asked Rob at Coherent about that $85 crossover and he told me to stay away. Just remember that this speaker likes a powerful and balanced amp. anything less and you will not get the sound it is capable of |
@prof I would try the GAIA feet as Music Direct offers a 100% refund if not happy. i think they are very different in design from the isopucks and should work much better. I like my ears about 4" below the tweeter and here is something i copied from Stereophile: Setup was relatively simple—as simple as
manipulating a slippery, asymmetrical, 45"-tall, 91-lb object can be. I
sited the CS3.7s 5' from the front wall and 21" from the sidewalls. I
sat 91" away, with my ears about 4" below the tweeter axis. (Thiel says
the ideal position is "at least 2" below the tweeter's axis.") I then
screwed in the CS3.7's massive floor spikes. If you have small children
or a large pet, Thiel offers "stabilizer" bars that outrig the spikes,
giving the speakers a larger footprint. anyway, are you saying you use the speakers directly on the floor with no feet at all. never tried that but i would audition the GAIA feet. |
I am curious since we are on the subject of various support devices for the speakers. Has anyone tried comparing the sound with and without the outriggers that Thiel provided? also i found this which sure looks interesting if one has an extra 2 grand lying around. https://www.thecableco.com/seismic-speaker-bars-size-3-set-of-4.html |
hi Tom and Jafant, this thread gets better and better. thank you all so much. I would, from my experience with both brass feet from mapleshade, and the GAIA feet, try them in your system. i liked the brass feet a lot, and my girlfriend preferred them over the GAIA, but i like the openness and extra dimensionality that the sound had with the GAIA. I preferred both to the stock feet. For what it is worth, Harry Weisfield of VPI uses the GAIA under his KEF blades. |
@tomthiel wow that is so interesting. i understand your love of the 2.2's. I owned those from 1991-2007 (2.0 series before and 2.4 after) and they were the ones that really hooked me on the Thiel brand. I have yet to own any of the others for that long a period. all those years and i only lost one tweeter which Gary Dayton replaced for free and literally i had it the next day). it is amazing what you are doing and we Thiel guys thank you for it. my speaker is now the 3.7 and i know you are working on those as well though they are last on the list and understandably so. I really think these will be the speakers they bury me with and i am only 65 so they have to be good for at least 20 more years. BTW i totally understand your comment about sufficient life force. we hit a point where we really have to carefully allocate our time and energy. Thank you so much for doing what you are doing. |
from an email from Rob G:
The stabilizer pins are an internal part of the
CS3.7, and should show some improvements with them in place. Especially in the
bass region. The important thing is that the speakers are making contact with
the sub-floor, for improvements in the bass. The outriggers do improve the
footprint, and keep them from being turned over easily, but they also provide
improved bass response.
|
well us A'gon guys will be most interested in how your speakers evolve and i appreciate what you are doing. i had 2.4's before getting the 2.7's and the 2.7's were better for sure. but with the mods to your speakers, i bet you have closed the gap. i suspect that you have increased the resale value as anyone following this thread will certainly appreciate the updates. it has taken a long time for my new 3.7's to break in as they had some new drivers installed by Rob, and so now they are finally surpassing the 2.7's. May Thiel live long and prosper. |