Want to upgrade my cartridge from 2m blue to black

If is has a better stylus profile then it will be an upgrade for sure.
The styli are interchangeable between Blue and Black ?
If yes just go for it (just the stylus)

 I’m definitely an analog lover but am budget constrained. Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.

It seems like other folks ignoring your statement about " budget constrained", cartridge is the most important in your situation, change the stylus profile first, this is the most cost effective solution to upgrade the quality. You can always use your upgraded cartridge on another turntable. 

I have a local friend with similar cheap belt drive, he changed M2 Red to Stanton 881s mkII and it was huge improvement in sound quality without changing anything else, later he has bought a better phono stage, but still using the same turntable (Pro-Ject). 

@naromance

Chakster, Where is the OP gonna get a used 881s with a good stylus?

It was not an advice to buy Stanton 881s, but just an illustration of how this particular turntable (or any turntable) benefit with a better cartridge. Turntable just rotate the record, but cartridge extract the music from the groove. Yes, this is a cheap turntable, but the cartridge is far more inportant of the owner does not have money for a new turntable which is probably $1700-2000 minimum.

@bsmg

I would not put a 2M Black on that turntable; that’s a 750$ cartridge with a Shibata tip, not interchangeable with the Blue stylus.

Are you sure ? This is Blue and this is Black stylus.

Why do you think they are not interchangeable ?

Here is a comparison chart of all models in 2M line. The difference is cartridge inductance (700mH for Blue and 630mH for Black), 1db higher channel separation for Black and 0.5mV higher output for Blue.

Why do you think the Black Shibata can not be used on 2M Blue cartridge body instead of Elliptical?

What’s the reason to say that ?

We’re talking about stylus replacement, not a cartridge replacement. The stylus cost is not as high as the new cartridge cost. If you are comparing a price of a new turntable with a price just for a new stylus the difference is huge!

You can upgrade components all your life and still not get the most out of your vinyl :) 

@bsmg he could ask any Ortofon dealer about it online. 

@tubelvr1 If the Black stylus is so expensive i would recommend Ortofon M20FL Super with nude FineLine diamonds. Great cartridge that can be find NOS for about $200-300 or even for a lower price. Seach on audiogon forum for user feedbacks. I still have NOS stylus for it, but i don't have cartridge body. 

 You need to be wary of NOS old cartridges; the stylus suspension can / will deteriorate and become stiff over time.

It happended only with 2-3 cartridges out of 60 that i've tried, and those carts with bad suspension are Technics EPC-100 and EPC-205 series. 

I am told the black is very critical in picking up noise from dirty vinyl.

That's not true. First of all i assume you play NEW vinyl, not a 40 years old vintage vinyl or not? So why do you expect noise on a new vinyl and why do you think a new vinyl is dirty by default ? 

If you play old vintage vinyl (like i do) the Shibata, LineContact, MicroRidge are so much better than Elliptical, because it can ride on a virgin part of the groove walls, not damaged by previous owner with Conical or Elliptical stylus decades ago. 

With Shibata, LineContact, MicroRidge stylus profiles you can only improve the sound quality compared to Elliptical profile. This is upgrade anyway. A lifespan of those styli are much longer! 

Read more about different types of styli here. 

Only digital aficionados are talking about noise coming from vinyl. 

$700 is fine for a great cartridge, but probably not enough for a good turntable and definitely enough for both, so you can do step by step. 

I would recommend to look for new Technics released this year:

SL1500s with build-in phono stage and phono cartridge ($1399 in the USA) or SL1200MK7 for $1199 in the USA.  

The OP's turntable Music Hall 2.2 is almost like Pro-Ject Debute Carbon designed for use with Ortofon 2M Blue or Red, those turntables suplied by the manufacturer with Ortofon cartridge as optimum and cost effective solution. It's a low budget turntable.

There is absolutely no need to change a turntable if the OP would like to upgrade it right now, all he need is just spare stylus with better profile, that's it. The stylus from Ortofon Black can be used with his Ortofon Blue cartridge. 

It's not a problem to make perfect alignment of any cartridge on this turntable/tonearm. I did that for a friend, but his choice for upgrade was Stanton 881s mkII (much better than any Ortofon MM). It was huge upgrade in quality compared to Ortofon Red. 

Some posters should really turn on the common sense here

P.S. I told my friend that he could sell his Pro-Ject in the future to buy more expensive Technics DD, but he's just fine with his Pro-Ject and the music sound good in his system, there is nothing wrong with that types of turntables for people who don't want or not ready to buy a better and more expensive turntable. They are happy to spend more on the records. 



 

No, the Ortofon black stylus cannot be used with the blue cartridge body. This according to the Ortofon website.

I think you have no idea what you’re talking about, no matter what stated on the Ortofon website, here is a comparison chart of all models in 2M line. The difference is cartridge inductance (700mH for Blue and 630mH for Black), 1db higher channel separation for Black and 0.5mV higher output for Blue.

Another user also commented about it:

The Black stylus can be swapped into any of the 2M bodies the difference is that the "better" ones gets selected for the Bronze and Black - the runts for the Red and Blue. The electrical specs are listed as 1.2kOhm for the Bronze and Black - 1.3kOhms for the Red and Blue. @pbnaudio 

@big_greg

Common sense is that a good table with an entry level cartridge will sound better than an entry level table with a good cartridge.

This is BS and i already explained how big is the improvement of the Stanton 881s mkII instead of the Ortofon 2M Red on the same cheap turntable called Pro-Ject Carbon. I’ve heard it myself, did you ever tried just to swap a cartridge ? Or you’re always buying a new turntable for each cartridge ?

Entry level cartridge can not sound better on more expensive turntables, cartridge pick up the signal from the record, not from the turntable. A cartridge rides in the record groove. Turntable just spin the record. If a person has just $700 for upgrade why do you advice a new turntable for the same shitty cartridge ?

We can talk about new turntable with much better tonearm if the budget is $2000, but not a $700 (the stylus replacement is cheaper than $700 anyway).

For a better sound a person can upgrade cartridge, turntable, tonearm, phono stage, wires, speakers and to make room treatment ... but this is not the case of this topic !

We can start from room treatment for anyone, but in this topic the OP just looking for a new cartridge or stylus and what you’re posting here is nonsense.

Of course a new stylus with better profile will be an improvement for any good working turntable. And Shibata stylus is an improvement over Elliptical stylus. All he need to do is to buy a STYLUS from the top model for his cartridge body. This is the quickest and most cost effective solution for his system at the moment.

@bsmg just stick to your Ortofon if you don’t want to discover much better MM cartridges from the past. They are available in NOS (never used) condition, sometimes even factory sealed and still cheaper than those Orotofon models you’re using. As i said earlier in my own experience only 2-3 samples out of 60 different cartridges i’ve bought have had some problems and all of them came from professional re-sellers who never really care about the qiality test or simple check, some of them know nothing about the cartridges and willing to quickly re-sell them. It’s important to understand who is the seller (an audiophile like us or just a businessman). BUT Luckily paypal buyer’s protection is always on the buyer’s side, full refund always quaranteed (including retunr shipping) even if the seller said "no return". Absolutely no risk for the buyers, but can be time-consuming.

Astatic MF-100 MF (Moving Flux with LineContact stylus) NOS available right now from Japan just for $280 on ebay, bargain! I remember when Raul swear it’s one of the best

@bsmg

I will stick with what the Ortofon engineers have published

This is for marketing purpose only, read what Peter replied to you, i believe he’s experienced with both carts and styli if you will click on the link in his post (you will see).

All cartridge generators of 2M are identical 99%, you see what’s the difference if you have comparison chart yourself, but why you keep telling us they are different? If you’re afraid to swap the styli it’s your own problem.

@big_gre

I own the same turntable the OP has and have put a really nice cartridge on it (along with other upgrades - an acrylic platter and Project Speed Box)- the Nagaoka MP500, Nagaoka’s $700 top of the line MM cart. I also owned a Music Hall MMF 5.1 and even with an entry level cartridge ($49 Audio-Technica AT95) it sounded better than the 2.2.

If you like a $49 Audio-Technica AT95 cartridge better than completely different $700 Nagaoka this is all about the cartridge you like, and your personal preferences in sound, not about turntable! Turntable does not have a sound as much as the cartridge in entry level Hi-Fi system. You can keep buyin’ turntables for your cartridges, but i will buy cartridges for turntables/tonearms, not vice versa.

But the question is not Me or YOU, the question is the cartridge for the OP, he did not asked what is a better turntable. I currently have 6 very expensive turntables, 6 toneamrs and 20 cartridges, so what?

When i swapped and aligned Stanton 881s mkII on friend’s Pro-Ject (nearly identicall to OP’s Music Hall turntable) it was a huge improvement over the 2M Red and my friend was happy to buy Stanton 881s MKII because this is exceptional MM cartridge, read here about this cartridge if you don’t know, it’s $350 cartridge which is much better than $700 Nagaoka and many other modern MM crap. Stanton was Doug Sax's monitoring cartridge for his famous disk mastering. The 2M Red will never be a better cartridge, no matter which turntable you will buy for it.

@viridian

Some have not been in the hobby long enough to understand that someone’s first hand experience may be contradictory to another’s experience.

This is all fine, but as i told you we could start from the room treatment and all our listening experience will change immediately. You can also mention an electricity as a pure energy and so on and on. But there is only one thing that can dramatically change the sound of the OP’s entry level Hi-Fi system - this is a cartridge. You can’t buy much better turntable with tonearm for $700 and even when you will buy it (second hand) the next thing you will come to is a cartridge. For $1500-2000 he could buy a better turntable and better cartridge, but for $700 he could buy ONLY better cartridge or for about $500 a better stylus for his existing cartridge.

@viridian 

And I will respectfully disagree...  

With turntable and tonearm like yours you're indeed free to disagree, you sold it as i can see, hope you can buy a coreless direct drive to forget about the "sound" of turntable forever.

Personally i use only DD truntables of the highest class, they are all dead quiet and does not have their own sound signature, they are rather similar than different, but the choise of tonearm does make a different. However, the analog system sound as good as the cartridge is.  

If I install the 2m black cartridge (with black body) on my mmf 2.2 and properly setup vta, vtf, azimuth, overhang etc. will I be able to at least extract 90% of the 2m blacks potential in performance?

No, you will never get the quality of 2M Black (Shibata stylus) with 2M Blue (Elliptical stylus), no matter which turntable you’re using. Your cartridge is already aligned by the manufacturer on your tonearm, right ?

If you can’t properly extract the bass and hight from the vinyl groove how a better turntable can compensate it to you ? The music cut with a cutter head, the closer the stylus profile shape to a cutter head the more accurate and more impressive is the reproduction of the record in your system. This is rule number 1.

Because the ONLY component that physically ride in the vinyl groove is the stylus tip (diamond), nothing else.

You already have an optimal combination of the cartridge and tonearm, this combination selected by the manufacturer.

The Ortofon designed those cartridges to put them in line from cheap to expensive according to the quality level a customer can get with each model. With MM cartridges it all depends on the stylus profile.

The reason why Black is more expensive than Blues is much more compliacated stylus profile of the Black, not a cartridge generator, the generator is the same.

Do yourself a favor, ignore what some people are posting, they really know nothing about cartridge design as i can see. And their logic is very strange, more like a perversion.

You can learn by your own, just read this thread to understand why stylus profile is so important to extract maximum musical information from vinyl:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=22894

You’re using the cheapest stylus now, Conical and Elliptical are the cheapest profiles. Elliptical is entry level profile, conical is the worst ever!

The more advanced profiles are LineContact type, there are many:
Hyper Elliptical, Shibata, Stereohedron, Van Den Hul, F.Gyger, MicroLine, SAS, MicroRidge .... they are all High-End (nude siamonds, not bonded)

Why do you think so many different profiles have been designed?
Just to make the sound of your vinyl much better, to be more polite with your records in terms of record wear, and to serve you much longer. All you need in case with MM is just to change stylus.

-Elliptical stylus life span is about 500hrs
-Shibata stylus life span is twice as much !
-MicroRidge stylus life span is about 2000 hrs

Turntable has nothing to do with your record wear factor, frequency response of your cartridge and your vinyl grooves.

Turntable can make a rotation of the record more stable, one turntable can be better isolated from vibrations, tonearm can have better bearings etc, but all these things in your case is irrelevant if your cartridge has entry level stylus profile. The most noticable different (if you willing to spend no more than $700) you will get ONLY by upgrading a stylus profile on your cartridge (or with completely different cartridge) first.

Later you can upgrade your turntable for $1200-1500 (look for new Technics DD released this year, just don’t buy another cheap belt drive).

Here is my system (before i changed the apms).

P.S. actually you can get much better cartridge than 2M Black just for $280 (new) here. 

I would second the idea of NOT ever buying a used cartridge/stylus unless you know the seller well. @chrisoshea

We are talking about NEW OLD STOCK cartridge, not a USED CARTRIDGE? Do you know what is New Old Stock ? Never used, never mounted, like new. Astatic and Glanz are way better cartridges than your Ortofon 2M series, but the cost of the Astatic MF 100 with LineContact stylus from that Japanese seller is just $280 (with free shipping worldwide) and the cartridge is NEW (unused). Nude LineContact stylus, you can buy 3 cartridges for the price of one 2M Black for example. Instead of a spare stylus which is cost $500+ anyone can buy 2 x Astatic MF100 cartridges (with nude LineContact stylus and Moving Flux generator) for the price of 1 Ortofon stylus. Not bad if the cartridge is NOS, don’t you think so?

Do you know how many of us have bought Astatic and Glanz ? Simply seach audiogon and you will find all the info.

I would like to remind anyone who's afraid to buy even used cartridges that you can always return a cartridge with no loss on ebay under paypal buyer's protection (if you think the cartridge is not as advertized), this is simply guaranteed for any purchase on ebay with paypal payment.

I think it would be much more problematic for you to return a new Orotofon if you don't like it than any items purchased on ebay.

Some people just don't want to learn about simple rules for ebay policy and paypal protection. 

@jji666 why do you think a tube phono stage (especially a cheap one) is a good idea ? After a years of tube rolling with some expensive NOS tunes i ended up with SS gear and it is so much better. Regarding the phono stage i think the tube must be avoided.

As for the stylus upgrade you're right. 

@pbnaudio good, remember it was one of Raul’s favorites back in the day in MM thread. For higher price that seller may have Glanz MFG-610 LX (you can ask). Glanz is better (different cantilever and different tip), but for double price. The seller is legit, some other audiogon members bought stuff from him (me too). But for whatever reason you can always return a cartridge under paypal buyer's protection with no loss. 

@uberwalts

There is also an Astatic mf300 on ebay, NOS including headshell for $599. No idea if that is twice as good as the mf100?

No, it’s not
Astatic MF-100 is like Glanz MF-71L, Astatic MF-100 is like Glanz MF-31L. Huge upgrade over all of them is Glanz MFG-610.

If you are considering Astatic MF-300 for $599 you can buy much better cartridges for the same price (or even cheaper), for example the Audio-Technica AT-ML150 OCC or Stanton 881s mkII or Pickering XSV-3000 are all under $400 normally (and much better).

But for $280 Astatic MF-100 is great. For this price an Ortofon M20FL Super with FineLine stylus is also superb.

@rollintubes

I think @chakster is a little ignorant when it comes to this issue. I’ve upgraded tone arms (which a TT upgrade would do) and used the same cart. The sound improvement was significant. Putting a shibata tip on an ortophon blue is like driving a boom box with a 300w amp. Jus’ sayin’

Upgrading tonearms is what i’ve been doing for years, but you can’t mount a good tonearm on cheap Music Hall belt drive turntable, also you can’t probably buy a much better turntable with better tonearm for $700 (except some vintage used items) which was the OP’s maximum budget.

If you cartridge can not extract maximum from the record groove and your whatever tonearm can’t compeslate it, no matter which tonearm. The signal goes from the record grooves and stylus profile extract music from the grooves. Wider frequency response and accurate reproduction is a primary function of the stylus and cartridge, then it depends on any other componets in the chain. But not vice versa. Upgrading tonearm is great if you already have a great cartridge with nice stylus profile.

MM cartridges designed to swap styli, what you’re sayin in noncense. MM cartridge manufacturer designed different styli at different cost to let the buyer choose what he need, if anytime anyone would like to upgrade MM cartridge a first thing to do is to buy a better stylus. I want to remind you again that Music Hall tonearm was matched with 2M cartridge by the manufacturer (the synergy must be OK).

If you have a little bit of technical knowledge you can look at comparison chart of the 2M line to understand the generators are all the same!

You can continue tube rolling. I think you’re changing tubes in the amp, but not the amp for the tubes. Some NOS tubes cost more than the whole amp! I’ve been there too.

@big_greg

But spending less than the cost of a cartridge on a turntable upgrade doesn’t make sense...

This hobby is all about constant upgrade of everything, it’s all about spending money of everything related to the audio system. We’re doing it step by step. When the OP asked for a cartridge upgrade is not a good idea to tell him he must buy another turntable first.

I did recommeded a much better turntables if he would consider it with $1200-1500 budget (not with $700 budget), those turntables are brand new Technics direct drive. If you think an upgrade from one belt drive to another belt drive (actually just a different version of the same turntable) was so noticeable for you then you have to try a decent direct drive and if your ears are so sensible to turntable (not to a cartridge or stylus profile) you must be blown away by the Technics. But using a mediocre cartridge on any good turntable is a perversion.

@uberwalts 

Jico used to make stylus for the 981 but a Pickering XSV3000 should work just as well. Which are a little easier to find and cheaper! 

Jico never made SAS stylus for Stanton/Pickering, all they did is cheap  generic Elliptical replacement which is a total degradation compared to any Stereohedron profile. It's better to send worn stylus to Expert Stylus in UK for retip with Paratrace profile. Expert Stylus Co LTD. specialized in Stanton/Pickering repair for ages.  Our @nandric is their best customer for retipping his huge collection of MC with Paratrace profile from Expert Stylus :)  

Pickering XSV-3000 has D3000 Stereohedron stylus, but this stylus is equal to the (Stanton 881s) D81s stylus. 

Stanton 881 with D81s is not as good as the Stanton 981 with D91s!
 
Stanton 981 is much better cartridge than 881 model and i think sealed D91s stylus cost at least $450 minimum. So ebay price is pretty close.  

Also Pickering XSV-7500 is much better than XSV-3000

P.S. I have factory sealed Pickering D3000 Stereohedron stylus if anyone interested.

My latest find is low impedance/low output mega rare Pickering XLZ-4500s, this MM cartridge has an output as low as MC and must be connected to MC phono input. XLZ series is completely different from XSV series.