having never heard a Studer C37, or an Ampex 350/351 for that matter, i can't say whether they might sound the best for playback. in fact; those i know that have the most experience say to me that those 50's and 60's machines actually make the best live recordings, but more contemporary machines sound better for playback.
i do think that quality of transport matters to the sound. it's not the only thing, but it's part of the picture.
i think we will see more custom electronics coming to market as the RTR audiophile movement matures. also; perceptions of specific output electronics is extremely context driven. i've had many tell me that the King/Cello sounds wonderful in my system, but maybe not as good in other contexts.....and i've heard the opposite too.
so there is more than one viewpoint as well as method. |
Dear Mikelavigne, yes - most great european generated music - classical as well as jazz and rock, beat etc. - was recorded on Studer - most american on Ampe(re)x.
The voltage conversation isn't all that great deal at all - this does frequently scare many audiophiles on both sides of the pond to give vintage gear from the "other side" a try.
Unless one wants to actually record / master new recordings on his own behalf, I still think it is about playback quality when talking about RTR for home use.
Cheers,
D. |
i almost traded my Dobbins Garrard 301/Loricraft for a 220v 50hz C37 from Europe....but in the end i did not want to deal with the power converter issues. so i purchased the 'American' C37, the Ampex 350. which, like the C37 in Europe, has lots of parts available and has that tubed output. and i purchased an additional set of Ampex 351 output electronics to be able to use that too.
which is better in that light? C37 or Ampex 350/351? many different opinions on that. lots of great music was mastered on both.
i do think that neither of those machines are the 'one answer' for all tapes. and the tape transports of either are crude and abrupt compared to the A820/A80/ATR-102. |
Most studios in the US with functioning tape machines have newer Studers. There were still a few new ones for sale as recently as a few years ago. Sadly, most of them sit in the corner unused. There are a few engineers who still insist on them, but its getting to be a very small number-mostly engineers with private studios of their own. The pressure and speed (and budget) of the modern studio/client combo makes it a tough decision and a big commitment. Its so cool to see Stevie Wonder Innervisions liner notes and see a friend (who now works at JBL) listed as "Tape Operator". |
Well, while I certainly agree regarding mechanism and transport, I have good reason for recommending the C-37 especially for home use 2-track playback. Carefully serviced, their built-in amplification is about as close as you can get for the best possible in tube-based RTR playback.
Sure - there are customized ss based playback amplifiers by notable audiophile origin (Cello etc.), but they never moved the earth beneath my feet.
A top-notch C-37 may have more hiss in playback than most japanese RTRs of the 1970s/80s and certainly can't compete with Nagra either, but then you will have a very hard time getting the dimensionality, soundstage, micro-color and "live-feeling" a C-37 can provide.
After all we are talking home use playback here - not recording, not pre-mix master taping.
My vote for playback - and meant for that purpose only.
Another point - easy access (at least in Europe...) to NOS/NIB original parts. Tube-based plug-in devices can be serviced quite comfortably too.
Lastly and maybe of relevance - I am not bias on tubes.
My power amps are SEFets, battery powered - for good reason.
Cheers,
D. |
as far as best Reel to Reel machine ever built, i'll agree it does become a matter of personal preference. but there are some objective things that can be said. there is a difference between consumer machines, pro-sumer/broadcast machines, and master recorders. and only master recorders, where the build level and transports are not compromised, are really candidates for being the best machines. there is a reason that the master recorders were used in studios to make our beloved music. this is not to say that a particular hot rodded broadcast level machine cannot have perfect heads and output electronics and sound better than nice master recorders. i still own a stock Technics RS-1500. i owned a deParavicini modified RS-1700, which sounded great. but when i compared either of those to my Studer A820, either with or without the King/Cello.....there was a refinement to the music with the Studer which the Technics could not attain. and when you look at the way tape is handled, my Studer A820's and ATR-102's simply are in another league compared to even broadcast machines. i think the Nagra T would also fall into that territory. so talking about the best ever tape player you need to consider the build quality and tape handling mostly. heads and output electronics can be changed. i'd liken it to a turntable and arm in vinyl. yes, the cartridge and phono stage is important; but if the turntable and arm don't properly put the cartridge in the perfect position to do their job there is compromise. and since all these machines are 25-60 years old; how do you objectively compare RTR decks that are in such variable states of repair and optimization? as far as which master recorders are best, i have very limited experience. maybe Ki Choi would be the guy to have the most to say about that question. he owns almost every master recorder ever built, in most cases multiple, and is able to work on them too. i suspect i know his preference. there is a RTR repair facility which does answer this question from a slightly different perspective. here is the question they ask. and here is their answer. i'm not sure i 100% agree with them. but they know quite a bit more than me about the subject. and their answer is a bit self-serving. |
Sorry to sound like a broken record but "Best" is in the eye/ear of the beholder. There is no definitive "best" anything, it's all subjective. When you ask a question like this, the answers will always be what folks think is "best" to them in their system. |
The Studer's when they were brand new. Today any R2R 'best' is best measured by its condition or reconditioning. Since parts are very hard to come by at reasonable prices, the ability to have a fully functioning, calibrated machine is the starting point. I have five decks, including sony, teac, technics and akai. I play pre recorded broadcast tapes from Drake, Radio Arts and AFRTS and have found great sound, often better then digital. |
Studer C-37 with thoughtful modification. Had two of them. Never heard more faithful, dynamic or physical presence from any R2R. Together with "air" and soundstage.
Cheers,
D. |
Thesoundhouse,
you`re absolutely right. Being a connoisseur of R2Rs as I learn from your history you know about "your treasures" quite well. I regard the Revox machines as very good ones too. Nevertheless I experienced that the professionnel studio machines offer some advantages we as home audio guys did not know before.
In my youth I started with Grundig and Philipps R2Rs. When I rediscovered Tapes in the 90ies I first bought a TEAC X2000 and later picked up a Studer A810 in Switzerland but had to calibrate the machine. This one was a true friend for about six years. When I was confronted with one of the best restored Studer C37 R2R I have ever seen I added the C37 and from now on enjoy the tube sound of a studio tape recorder.
I also compared the sound of the C37 with the A820 being able reproducing over 15.000 Hz. The A820 is from my point of view technically the superior unit but musically I prefer a little the C37. This is today`s situation, but who knows...
best & fun only |
I feel that that it is too hard for there to be one best reel to reel. I have owned many. The objectives for me and my reel to reel tape machines are not the same for others who may also own reel to reel tape recorders. I like the three reel to reel tape recorders I own. I have spent a lot of time going through and sorting out the issues my machines had as a result of age, mainly old electrolytics caps. I also spent years looking for new old stock heads belts and other items that fail. All three of my machines sonically are superior compared to all the other reel to reel tape machines I have had owned in the past. Almost all the reel to reels machines I have owned in the past I have been able to sell them to friends and people I know well. One bought one of my previous big fancy Technics R2Rs and according to the buyer the his reel to reel with lots of feature any speed and tape options is the best and that I was crazy to sell it to him and buy three reel to reels to cover my reel to reel tape needs. I have another friend who says the same thing about the big bad fancy Akai, and another friend who bought my vintage done right Ampex. I have to admit that vintage Ampex sounds great but the Revox machines sound even better according to me. These guys are funny when they come over with a newly found treasure usually a prerecorded tape found at a yard sale in great condition. I get grilled "why does it sound so good in your system" then they make fun of my funny looking Revox machines. Anymore who cares about the best, what you like is what counts! The best is an opinion of some one. |
Even though I myself won't be pursuing R2R (not enough easily available material I'm interested in to play), one thing I would be curious about is what these R2R worthies think of the vinyl vs. tape comparison. Too often, it seems to me, the magic word "analog" is bandied about almost exclusively in relation to vinyl, to which it is not a synonym. An occasional reminder of the difference could be healthy for the perspective, I believe. |
Dear all,
thanks for contributing so far. I know about the Studer machines but there are so many other nice machines out there. I recently saw a vintage Sony prototype on ebay in very good condition, only a little overprized.
Sam, oh yes you are a lucky owner of a A820. May I ask you and Mike if are using the A820 at 30 ips?
Besides of the A820 which machine really has "best of all time status" or which one would you recommend going for?
best & fun only |
I use Sony TC 765 for all my replay....not the super machine, but very good sound and build to last....... |
Alright, MIKE!!
First, there was the tribute to vinyl...
and now...
the R2R arsenal :-)
Of course, there is Ki's pantheon to analog reel tape!
I have a Studer A-820 ;-)
Eckart -- how're you doing?
|
Mike,
your A820 looks like it is in a very good condition. It is of course the crown of all modern Studer machines with five motors and its build quality is from another world. It is also a very rare type you have. You are very priviliged to work with such a machine. I was told the weak point may be the computerized design. new parts a not easy to get but I do think this counts for all Studers exept of the A810.
Oh yes the Nagras. What about the Sonys and MCIs?
best & fun only |
interesting question. and one i've personally been trying to answer for 4-5 years. and i don't yet have the answer.
my first deck was a 1/4" ATR-102 completely redone by Jeff Gillman of Precision Motor Works. this deck also came with a 1/2" head stack.
then i acquired a pristene condition 1/4" Studer A-820 that was redone by Fred Thal.
then i added a very clean 1/2" Studer A820.
recently i purchased an Ampex 350 in traveling cases, which is a virgin and super clean, but in need of a thourough going thru, which Dave Dintenfass will be re-doing for me.
and lastly i've acquired a very clean Nagra T which should be in my room next week.
at various times all the above machines have been characterized as the best from one perspective or another.
currently i have one set of custom output electronics, the King Cello. i've also purchased a pair of Ampex 351 Mic pre's, which i'm planning on using with a transformer for the low impedence modern heads....once Dave get's those done. i'd like to add one more set of output electronics.
i've been 'told' that the Studer A-820, A80, and Ampex ATR-102 are the very best transports in terms of tape handling and speed accuracy. heads seem to be a matter of taste; different people view those differently based on a sonic compass.
many tape decks are judged by their native output electronics; which mostly are crap, with a few exceptions. some love the tubes, others not.
which one is best? as a machine and considering build quality; there is the Studer A-820 and then there is everything else.
just one man's opinion. |
Thesoundhouse,
why is it a crazy question? If you meet someone asking where to buy the best ever built R2R machine for high quality recording & playback do you think the ones you mentioned will win the race? :-)
best & fun only |
Bifwynne,
you may look for sources at Audio Kharma ( reel to reel ). there are many sources mentioned where you can buy tapes. Master Tape dubs you may get e.g. from the Tape Project or AAA in Germany.
I know some audiophiles in the States, Switzerland, Germany who build up their tape collection right now. It looks to me like a small but exclusive renaissance of the R2R which you may also follow on systems displayed on Audiogon - but a small one!
best & fun only |
The old Ampex machines were nice, but the tube electronics were designed to be simple and easy to repair in the field but not audiophile grade. Sound beautiful but limited dynamic range and too much color! This is not true. The problem here is that when Ampex made their tube electronics was a good 40-55 years ago! They were amazing when they were new (many Living Stereo LPs were recorded on them) but have gone downhill due to age. If they are properly rebuilt they will take any solid state electronics ever made to task. If not rebuilt properly then I would agree that they can be colored- paper coupling caps perform well, but don't last for decades! The transport is a different matter. It is arguable that the ATR was indeed the state of the art, but if you really wanted to make things go, find a way to make it work with the 351 tube electronics. |
That is a crazy question. I have had many different Reel to Reel tape machines and many of them had radically different sounds and features. I have had my last 3 reel to reel machines for over 10 years and I will probably not sell them. I had many of the big Akai, Technics, Pioneer, Ampexs, but settled on three Revox reel to reel machines a G36 and two B77MKIIs. I like them the best out of all the reel to reel machines I have owned but I doubt they are the "best". They just have a sound that I really like. |
Big question and like hi fi, it depends. I can comment from the pro side. The old Ampex machines were nice, but the tube electronics were designed to be simple and easy to repair in the field but not audiophile grade. Sound beautiful but limited dynamic range and too much color! Many old tape transports have been separated from their electronics and now have specially built electronics. I've seen Mike Spitz from ATR tape in NYC sells machines like this to some pros who want top level tape performance. This is probably the best machine available for record/play performance.
Another friend, CHris Mara, is modding and upgrading old MCI machines for studios, but this is a pro application.
For playback only, I saw Paul Stubblebine was doing modded Panasonic and tascam machines, not sure if he still is. He was offering a tape library awhile back.
One issue is the raw tape-the best tape makers went away a few years ago and now ATR/Mike Spitz has begun to manufacture his own tape. There are some other sources as well. I hear good things about ATR tape. But tape does not store well, so its not ideal long term medium. Sure sounds great though.
Other than a few private sources, where would you get a steady source of material?
Brad |
Thuchan, please elaborate on how the R2R application is coming back. What is the source material and where can you buy it?? I have zero knowledge about R2R, so a brief education would be appreciated.
FWIW, I remember in the "old" days when high end R2R machines were made by Crown, TEAC and Tandberg. I never got into that end of the hobby but these machines were works of art, especially the Crown which was the Cadillac of the day. |
the ATR is a Mastering Machine.
I read: The Ampex ATR-102 tends to work best on rock, metal and hip hop styles, and even folk or acoustic-based music that needs warming up. Where it doesnt work well is when a mix is already quite compressed, dull or heavy in the low frequencies in these cases the tape only tends to exaggerate these areas.
best & fun only |
go to bottlehead read about their tape mods |
Ampex 102 ATR if we are talking cost no object |
