Why are my woofers pumping?

Invictus005 please. What may be ridiculous to you may not be so, for fellow a-gon members. You seem to "know" it all - but where is your actual listening evidence? We're all in this hospital together.

Dear @o_holter : """   compliance is similar to the Atlas so the test may not tell much........ """"

well, you have a " problem " that till today you don't know exactly the reason or reasons for it. You assumed that cartridge/tonearm resonance is the culprit but you really don't know because you just don't want to make tests as listen the same system with different cartridges ( Clavis DC. ) or with different tonearm that you can borrow from somewhere or some one.

Clavis has same compliance: so what? from where came that can't tell you nalmost nothing?

makes no sense that kind of answers from you because you need to find out ( or maybe not. ) what's happening making different kind of tests and if you don't want to do it then is better to just forgeret about as invictus005 said and try to enjoy MUSIC.

R.

one thing to try

play a record Try to move your tonearm on the record sideways with a light feather

if the tone arm doesn’t move sideways
chances are the bearing in the tone arm is rigid causing It to not move correctly

if the bearing is locked up
all the up down motion of the cartridge to the record is occurring via the cantilever not the arm bearing

the cantilever going up and down produces woofer pumping



Best wishes

Audiotomb - I already tried the feather test, and found no problem. I also contacted SME who said, basically, if you don’t notice a problem with the V, it should be fine.

Raul sensibly suggested (going the resonance path, along with invictus005 and others) - test with the Clavis DC ca 2007 model that I have on my loft (not much used, since I soon changed to a Titan).
So I’ve done it. Interesting to hear the sound of the Clavis - from back then. Quite decent.

Pumping? I am sure you’re all dying to hear the result!

First impression: less pumping, maybe only normal woofer energy.
Testing the 2016 remaster of New gold dream. And then, with even more clear result, Pink Floyd Meddle.
There is a lot of woofer energy, yes. But less, or very little, of the visual-only pumping. So the "subsonic overwork" of the woofers seems far less. Or mainly absent.

This seems to confirm the resonance problem view. There are some doubts however. First, there is the possibility that some woofer pumping is actually not a big problem - just look away from it. As was suggested early in this thread. I mean, the Atlas sounds better than the Clavis, reaching further down, more explosive dynamics, wider soundscape. After ten minutes listening to the Clavis, I want my Atlas back. Also I've noted that LPs with pumping often sound good.

 Second, I am not sure of the compliance of the Clavis - is it 12 or maybe ca 20 (due to failure to translate the Japanese 100hz rating). It weighs 2.1 g less than the Atlas, though. According to the vinylengine calculator, even a compliance of 20 is thereby enough to get me into "green" territory. This seems in line with my results. I cannot test with the HFN record since it is on loan to a friend.

Dear @o_holter : Nice result you experienced with the Clavis ( that ovbiously is not even a " small " challenge for the great Atlas. ).

""" So the "subsonic overwork" of the woofers seems far less. Or mainly absent. """

Either the Clavis/Atlas compliance and weigth puts the resonance frequency in the " green " territory as you said. So, seems no trouble for that and very specific tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency issue.

I imagine that you already tested both cartridges using the SME V in static and balanced way about the VTF set up.

Your Atlas has over 1,500 hours of use that are not way higher but not way low number.
Trhough those 1,500 hours stylus tip and cartridge suspension are the ones that could starts to work outside manufacturer specs and I’m not saying that’s your case but only thinking " fully loaded voice ".

Who can tell you if any problem down there? not a single re-tipper but the manufacturer it self. maybe time to talk with J.Carr for he can take a look to your beloved Atlas.
In the mid time you can re-tip your Clavis with a re-tipper using boron cantilever and you will be surprised the Clavis improvements.

Anyway, I think you need to try JC directly.

R.

Invictus005 wrote: " This has to be the most ridiculous thread on Audiogon at the moment. Everything and all of it. OP, I told you it’s a problem YOU can’t solve. Just enjoy the music. Some of these things are just part of vinyl. Many comments here have crossed the line of insanity. Seems like some people want to end up in a mental hospital?"
Let me posit this in a positive way. "Sound is good. Relax. With a good cart you get some vinyl pumping. Look away". Ok? If so, I agree. Fits my evidence, mostly.

But the thread, even if ignorant or repetetive, is not ridiculous. A large list of potential problems, regarding low rumble and woofer pumping, has been listed and described. Even if low cart-arm resonance is the main culprit in my case, the suggestions are interesting on their own, for anyone investigating low frequency vinyl problems in resolving systems.

I was maybe a bit optimistic in my last post. The thread is all over the place, yes. But so are most of the threads I’ve read on this subject. Compare this one: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-arm-cartridge-matching-myth . Halcro argues that resonance means ca nothing, others don’t agree, kirkus has a good post stating that resonance is only a rough measurement, the cart-arm-combo acts as a high-pass filter. For an even more esoteric discussion, compare this: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/strange-tonearm-tweak-long

Back to testing.

I've brought my (quite worn)  Titan i down from the loft. And will connect it soon.

Since the Clavis creates less pumping (next to none), I would expect that the Titan comes in the middle (if the resonance theory is right). This is due to the weight differences (assuming that the 10hz compliance is much the same, maybe 21, as suggested earlier in this thread). The tonearm effective mass is 10.5g, the two screws add 1.1g (I measured), the Clavis 9.5g. This gives a 7.6 hz resonance, according to the calculator. With the heavier Titan at 10.5g, there should be a 7.4 hz resonance. And with the heaviest Atlas at 11.6g, a 7.2 hz resonance.

This fits somewhat with my results, but I wonder if the compliance of the Clavis is in fact lower. Since woofer pumping goes from visible and maybe a problem with the Atlas, to not much visible, with the Clavis.

It may be that the wear and tear on the cartridge suspension plays a role here. The Clavis has only 200 hours, the Titan maybe 2200, the Atlas 1600 (rough estimates). My audio friend Eirik remarked that he had not noticed this pumping problem earlier, in my system. Myself, I am not sure, it may have been going on as long as I've used the Atlas, only we did not look for it, or it may have become stronger over time. I remember that, as the Titan became more worn, I had some rumble and bass problems, but I am not sure if the Titan was the culprit.

So it will be interesting to reinsert it into the system and hear how it compares with the Atlas. Like I've told you, ten minutes with Clavis made me think, this is decent, even very good - and then I ached to get back to the wider and deeper soundscape of the Atlas. Pumping woofers or not. The Titan should perform in a middle zone, but closer to the Atlas.

Testing the Titan i (ca 2008 model).

To my surprise, there is little to no subsonic pumping. Much like the Clavis. Or maybe a little more. But clearly different from the Atlas. The woofers are more engaged, more vibrations, changing from Clavis to Titan - but this fits what I hear, it is fast vibrations, not pumping.

Sonically the Titan is a clear step up from the Clavis (today, also) with wider, deeper, better detail, better e g on female voices (R L Jones: Evening..). On Pink Floyd’s Echoes, the soundscape is now almost as large as with the Atlas, although still a bit more harsh, less natural, with some sibilants (I could cure some of it through adjustments).

I had expected a gradient, according to resonance theory. The Clavis should pump least, the Titan some, and the Atlas most.

But the results - so far - are more one of a kind. The Atlas pumps, the others don’t. This makes me suspect suspension wear or some other non-optimal condition in the Atlas. Yet I was surprised to find no signs of pumping with the Titan - since this has been used maybe 500-800 hours longer than the Atlas, so if suspension slack, wear and tear, is the culprit, it should show up there. But no.

"what I hear, it is fast vibrations, not pumping" - this needs a clarification.

What exactly is the symptom? With a better cart - changing from Clavis to Titan - I hear / see / touch woofer behavior changes (method described above: fingers slightly touching woofers, observing, listening). The woofers are more energized, asked to do more. The better cart offers more musical information, deep energy, etc. This "normal" energizing is quite easy to observe - you hear it as you see / touch it, and it is normally a fast movement, the woofer "shivers". Mainly (not always) what you see is what you hear. Sometimes there is woofer movement not clearly linked to sound, but it follows the same main pattern and is probably not serious.

The see/touch (you dont hear it) pumping is different. It is slower, more stately, rather than quick vibrations. It follows, more or less, a "once per revolution" pattern. There is no clear relation to the music, and it is easiest to see when the stylus is in the groove between tracks. The pumping is less observable when music plays, but there is (so far) no indication that it is "turned off", it is still there, but working in the background.  

The observant reader may ask why I did not try the Clavis and the Titan before, since I had them at my loft. That would have saved us a lot of speculation in this thread. The answer is that I thought they were broken, due to many hours on the Titan, and a cantilever problem on the Clavis. But both are playable, and good enough to test for woofer pumping.

Since I am testing mainly for subsonic woofer pumping the sonic impressions may be less relevant, but the experience is clear and maybe interesting for some of you. Listening in "retrospective" to the Clavis DC, allthough it sounds good, I have two problems, one is the limited soundscape, the other is the harsh almost digital type of sound in dynamic parts of the music. But if I had known no better I would have loved this cartridge - and I did, fifteen years ago! The Titan i that I got ten years ago was clearly was a major step up, from the Clavis - and it sounds very good today also. The soundscape became much wider and bigger, more width and depth, refinement and detail. The Atlas is some steps above the Titan. The wider and deeper soundscape was present with the Titan, but the Atlas improves and tunes it better so it sounds more natural. No looking back...

Dear @o_holter : ""  But the results - so far - are more one of a kind. The Atlas pumps, the others don’t. This makes me suspect suspension wear or some other non-optimal condition in the Atlas. ""

As I said in my posts you had to test your Clavis, that could be interesting to know about and now you already know why I told tou what I told you. Fine.

R.

Thanks. Trying to get in touch with Lyra.

Oh no. Worst case scenario. Trying to fasten the lead clips to the Atlas, to get it back on to the arm, something has gone wroing. Cartrudge first gave strange distorted sound, we adjusted some more, but then it just sailed across the record. Cause - no diamond. It is gone. Without any external hits, stresses etc that we can see. Maybe it just did not like this thread. Anyway it is no longer there. Atlas - caput.

Dear @o_holter : Sorry to hear that.  That happened to me twice and I remember that in a trip to Houston in a firned home place just when we wanted to listen his great audio system suddenly the stylus tip just " was not there ", by coincide was a Lyra too: Titan .

R.

Nothing so bad it isn’t some good also. I am trying to find a way out, how to repair it for a reasonable cost. This should not happen, for a moderately used (not misused) cartridge. Such things - diamonds falling off, cantilevers breaking, cantilevers or diamonds not precisely tuned - are known to happen, across cart makers. As users we hope for better quality control and follow-up when sub-optimal units have been sold.

I think we now have a very clear main suspect, not suggested by anyone in this otherwise very rich thread. That is: 1) the Atlas showed increased signs of woofer pumping, over some months. Abnormal, when comparing to the Clavis and Titan. 2) For a short period, the diamond was half-loose from the cantilever, with blurred sound. 3) Next, it broke off, from the cantilever (this happened through normal, careful handling)  All this points to a gradually increasing defect in the diamond / cantilever connection. Assuming that a potential crack or breakup can indeed give some strange bass / subsonic pumping effects at first. I am no engineer, but it seems highly possible, and fits the data in my case.

I thank you all for all suggestions in this thread. My problem of woofer pumping is 'solved'. No diamond, no pumping. No woman no cry. Maybe, it was mainly a result of usage. It has 1200 or 1300 hours use, in my estimate. I will try to fix the Atlas. But this thread is now at rest from my side, since the problem is gone.